"Hitler's First War" by Thomas Weber

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jeffhan373
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Re: "Hitler's First War" by Thomas Weber

#16

Post by jeffhan373 » 27 Sep 2010, 16:41

While we're on the subject, can anyone shed any light on why Hans Mend's 1931 book "Hitler im Felde 1914-1918" was suppressed by the Nazi government? I'm thinking it may have been because the book centered too much on Mend at war rather than Hitler, but that's just a guess.

This is one of the few books I'm aware of which was (a) suppressed by the Nazis and (b) banned by the Allies after the end of the war. Mend seems to have run afoul of virtually everybody...

Max Williams
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Re: "Hitler's First War" by Thomas Weber

#17

Post by Max Williams » 27 Sep 2010, 18:26

jeffhan373 wrote:The Stuart Russell DVD is supplemented by his book, published by the Arndt Verlag in 2006, "Frontsoldat Hitler. Der Freiwillige des Ersten Weltkrieges". The book is 8-1/2" x 12" and contains many interesting period illustrations as well as some "After the Battle" Then and Now type comparisons. I don't believe this ever came out in an English translation, but it should be available via Amazon.de. It's well worth getting if you're interested in this part of Hitler's life.
Thanks Jeff. I have Stuart's book, but didn't mention it because it's only in German. The DVD is more visual and self-explanatory. Unfortunately, my good friend Stuart Russell is no longer with us; he would certainly have been one well-placed to assess and make comment on the book by Mr. Weber. As a British researcher and author living and working in Germany, he constantly struggled against the odds to promote objective history.
Max.


ThomasWeber
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Re: "Hitler's First War" by Thomas Weber

#18

Post by ThomasWeber » 27 Sep 2010, 19:59

Dear Max: Have you actually read my book? I time and time again apply source criticism to the sources I use. The whole point of my book is that the evidence people give can be tainted by historical evidence. As you will see, the approach of my book indeed is to use almost exclusively contemporary sources, as opposed to recollections from long after the event. You are absolutely right that “personal evidence gained prior to the demise of the Hitler regime paints an entirely different picture to that gained post-WW2” and this is exactly why my book uses almost exclusively contemporary sources and NOT post-1945 sources.
You are also right that Hitler did not spend the entire war as a regimental runner: For the first week of the war he was a frontline soldier but for the remaining more than four years he was indeed a regimental runner.
My book does not give the impression “that the award of the Iron Cross was commonly given to flat arses who did not participate in the fighting.” In fact, I show how rare it was for anyone to get an Iron Cross First Class. However, I also show that it was next to impossible for frontline soldiers to get an Iron Cross 1st Class, while soldiers serving with regimental HQ had at least a chance of getting an Iron Cross 1st Class. This is clearly supported by the files of the 6th Bavarian Reserve Division, the 12th Bavarian Reserve Infantry Brigade, and the 16th Bavarian Reserve Infantry Regiment in the Bavarian War Archive.
It is true that all authors have to accept criticism as well as praise. Historians have to make sense of often imperfect evidence and it is therefore inevitable that historians disagree amongst each other of how evidence should be weighed. I am thus very happy for you to criticize me. However, I would be much happier for you to criticize me for something I have actually written and done than for something I have not.

Dear Igor,
Thank you for quoting for John Williams’ book. The reason why I disagree with many of Williams’ claims about Hitler and the First World War is that Williams did not make use of any archival sources in German archives and relied exclusively on memoirs, regimental histories, Mein Kampf, and other publications written long after the event.

Dear Jeffhan,
Mend’s book was primarily suppressed because he had very publicly broken with Hitler.

Max Williams
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Re: "Hitler's First War" by Thomas Weber

#19

Post by Max Williams » 28 Sep 2010, 01:18

ThomasWeber wrote:..... I show how rare it was for anyone to get an Iron Cross First Class. However, I also show that it was next to impossible for frontline soldiers to get an Iron Cross 1st Class, while soldiers serving with regimental HQ had at least a chance of getting an Iron Cross 1st Class. This is clearly supported by the files of the 6th Bavarian Reserve Division, the 12th Bavarian Reserve Infantry Brigade, and the 16th Bavarian Reserve Infantry Regiment in the Bavarian War Archive.
I am sorry, but the facts contradict the findings of your research on this point. I looked up the awards of WW1 EK1 and EK2 to a selection of senior SS officers.
Georg AHRENS EK1 and EK2
Max AMANN EK2 (Hitler's NCO)
Erich von dem BACH EK1 and EK2
Hans BAUR EK1 and EK2
Josef BERCHTOLD EK2
Gottlob BERGER EK1 and EK2
Karl BRENNER EK1 and EK2
Kurt DALUEGE EK2
Walther DARRE EK2
Karl-Maria DEMELHUBER EK1 and EK2
Need I go on? Many of these decorations were won as frontline volunteers and NCOs. In numerous photos of other ranks SA and SS troopers during the 1930s, the EK1 can clearly be seen being worn on the left breast pocket. Are you trying to tell me that almost all of these men were not WW1 frontline soldiers or were officers? It appears that your research has ignored basic visual hard evidence.
Do you have a comment on my point...
Max Williams wrote:Where was the BBC interview when this book "Corporal Hitler and the Great War 1914-1918: the List Regiment" by John F. Williams was published?
Max.
Regards,
Max.

ThomasWeber
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Re: "Hitler's First War" by Thomas Weber

#20

Post by ThomasWeber » 28 Sep 2010, 03:12

I cannot comment on these specific SS officers without having seen their specific files. However, generally the point stands that the overwhelming majority of Iron Crosses 1st Class (I am not talking about Iron Crosses 2nd Class) went to officers, NCOs, and support staff of regimental, brigade, and divisional headquarters.
Whether the selection of SS officers that you listed are a representative cross-section of Iron Cross recipients from WWI (in which case the majority of them are unlikely to have been frontline combat soldiers at the time they received their Iron Cross 1st Class) or not (in which case many of them might indeed well have frontline combat soldiers, is impossible to say without knowing the specifics of the SS officers in question. Maybe Ruth Bettina Birn's book would answer that question.
The files in the Bavarian War Archive in Munich give a good breakdown of the recipients of Iron Crosses 1st Class from Hitler's regiment. From these figures we know beyond doubt that the majority of recipients of Iron Crosses 1st Class in Hitler's regiment were not frontline combat soldiers.

ThomasWeber
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Re: "Hitler's First War" by Thomas Weber

#21

Post by ThomasWeber » 28 Sep 2010, 03:17

Max, as to your question to where the BBC was when Williams book was published: I have no idea where the BBC was. You have to ask the BBC. I reviewed his book at the time in the Times Literary Supplement.

Jim S
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Re: "Hitler's First War" by Thomas Weber

#22

Post by Jim S » 28 Sep 2010, 04:18

It looks like I started a little storm. I certainly didn't think the author of the book would "chime in"! Thanks Dr. Weber. The purpose of this site is to help us learn and think about WW2 - the people, events, reasons, etc. - and it's working. Maybe I was wrong about that spin stuff- I'll find and read the book for sure now.

Max Williams
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Re: "Hitler's First War" by Thomas Weber

#23

Post by Max Williams » 28 Sep 2010, 09:34

ThomasWeber wrote: Maybe Ruth Bettina Birn's book would answer that question.
I assume you are referring to Birn's book on the subject of Higher SS and Police Leaders, in which case it would not answer the question as the vast majority of these SS officers did not hold that position and are not covered.
I have no doubt that the majority of EK1 awards were given to men holding officer rank, but you stated "In fact, I show how rare it was for anyone to get an Iron Cross First Class." My argument is that it was not as rare an occurrence as you declare. There are plenty of examples of frontline soldiers who were awarded the decoration.
I think you miss my point over the BBC, which is that, had your book portrayed Hitler in a more positive light, the media interest would not have existed.

Jim,
I hope you don't think this is a "storm." I believe it's a discussion over differing opinions of a book and I'm pleased you mention that the purpose of this site to make people think and learn about the events and personalities surrounding warfare is actually working. Of course you should obtain and read the book. After all, that is the only way you can make up your own mind.
Thanks to all who have participated in this interesting discussion.

Regards,
Max.

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Re: Hitler's First War

#24

Post by dcmatkins » 28 Sep 2010, 09:43

J. Duncan wrote: I wouldn't want to live under his ideological system...but I dislike falsehood, make-believe, and smear tactics.
I fully agree, except all Governments past and present, still rely on these tactics to rule.

J. Duncan
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Re: "Hitler's First War" by Thomas Weber

#25

Post by J. Duncan » 29 Sep 2010, 09:30

Definition of "smear" (American Heritage Dictionary): "To stain, or attempt to destroy the reputation of, to vilify."
Typical review of the book in link provided. Hitler a "rear area pig". The article suggests that Mr. Weber's book shows us a Hitler who was a coward and didn't deserve his Iron Cross simply because most of the accounts we have of hitler during those years come from his war-time buddies and future Nazis and that "runners" served in HQ away from the mud, grime, and deadly action. Tough sell to people who are informed, as the author is discovering here at AHF. Ian Kershaw and Konan Fischer actually give nods to the "research"! I would place Mr. Weber's book in the same genre as Lothar Machtlan's "Hidden Hitler".

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/au ... olf-hitler

ThomasWeber
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Re: "Hitler's First War" by Thomas Weber

#26

Post by ThomasWeber » 29 Sep 2010, 16:35

Dear Jim,
Thanks for your note.

Dear Max,
I think our discussion has been useful to the extent that – even though we will probably not agree on everything, that some common ground has started to emerge and as I said I don’t mind at all to be challenged for what I have written (I just don’t like to be challenged for things I have never claimed or done.)
I think we can agree that the majority of EK1 awards went to officers and NCOs. How ‘rare’ the award of EK1s (I am not talking her about EK2s here) to frontline troops were depends on how we define ‘rare’ (and I am not trying to split hair here). I think we can probably agree that the chances of a frontline soldier to receive an EK1 award for acts of bravery were very much smaller than for officers, NCOs, and support staff of HQs. In fact, between November 1914 and May 1918 only one frontline soldier in Hitler’s regiment received an EK1 (the figures are taken from the papers of the division to which Hitler’s regiment belonged which are housed in the Bavarian War Archive (6. Bayerische Reseredivision, Bd. 112,1) The official 1932 regimental history (4 Jahre Westfront) also states that “In fairness towards the comrades who stood in the first line of fire year long without anything but wounds to show for decorations, we have to say that the healthy belief of our Bavarian Crown Prince – that Iron Crosses should above all be awarded to combat troops – unfortunately was not acted upon. Among combat troops themselves, in which so few ranks could ever be decorated, it was only natural that there were hardly any left for the plain front-line soldiers.”
Well, I think I quite understood your point over the BBC but I felt that this is really not a point I should speak to. I can only speak about my own actions and all I can say is that I am just driven by the evidence that I find and not by considerations which story line the media will most likely go for. I also like to believe that the BBC is rather more open-minded than you suggest but again I can, and I only want, to speak about my own actions.

Dear J. Duncan,
You can only destroy the reputation of somebody who still has a reputation. Hitler destroyed his own reputation through the crimes he committed but the more important point here is not if I personally think that Hitler was a ‘rear area pig’ or whether he was courageous. In fact, I state in my book that he was a good soldier in that he excelled in what he was asked to do as a dispatch runner for regimental HQ. The important point is what frontline soldiers thought of him and if Hitler's own postwar claims are to trusted and as one of Hitler’s immediate peers from regimental HQ confirmed in a letter to Hitler from 1932, they indeed thought of them as ‘rear area pigs’. There is much more evidence in my book to substantiate this claim.

Max Williams
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Re: "Hitler's First War" by Thomas Weber

#27

Post by Max Williams » 29 Sep 2010, 17:03

ThomasWeber wrote: ....I also like to believe that the BBC is rather more open-minded than you suggest .....
I'm afraid that is definitely something we disagree upon.
Max.

ChristopherPerrien
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Re: "Hitler's First War" by Thomas Weber

#28

Post by ChristopherPerrien » 29 Sep 2010, 20:48

J. Duncan wrote:Definition of "smear" (American Heritage Dictionary): "To stain, or attempt to destroy the reputation of, to vilify."
Typical review of the book in link provided. Hitler a "rear area pig". The article suggests that Mr. Weber's book shows us a Hitler who was a coward and didn't deserve his Iron Cross simply because most of the accounts we have of hitler during those years come from his war-time buddies and future Nazis and that "runners" served in HQ away from the mud, grime, and deadly action. Tough sell to people who are informed, as the author is discovering here at AHF. Ian Kershaw and Konan Fischer actually give nods to the "research"! I would place Mr. Weber's book in the same genre as Lothar Machtlan's "Hidden Hitler".

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/au ... olf-hitler
Soldiers, especially combat soldiers, generally think anyone behind them is a "rear area pig", We called them REMF's(Rear enchelon mother fuckers) in the US Army. Bill Maudlin once said , To the man on the line, a man at the plt cp was a REMF, to that man, the man at the Company cp was a remf, to that man , the men at Bn Cp/sp's, to those men, men in Divisional assisgnments, to those guys ,ComZ trooops were remfs, to Comz, soldiers in England were remf's, to those soldiers , ConUS soldiers were remfs, to conus soldiers , remfs were guys not in the military. (a paraphase, Bill said it better.)

So while I think Hitler was a brave soldier/runner in WWI, I am certain there were guys going, "well he did get shot at, some of the time , he still had other time to "paint", and definitely got better chow". That kinda stuff will piss-off a guy who didn't have it that easy as often.

I use to see red when I was a soldier ,whenever some "soldier" :roll: said they were taking college classes. My first thought was " FU you F REMF bastard"! Wish I could do that ! Wish I had a female "tent buddy" too :roll: 8-) And maybe a shower once a week :roll: ,hot food, maybe a paint set :roll: , whatever. Dam REMF's!! :milsmile:

jeffhan373
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Re: "Hitler's First War" by Thomas Weber

#29

Post by jeffhan373 » 29 Sep 2010, 22:38

To return to the main theme of this post (Hitler's service in the Great War), I thought I'd post some interesting images. These come from "ILLUSTRIERTER BEOBACHTER", April 15, 1937, and were part of the coverage produced for Hitler's birthday.

My scanner has cut off the bottom line of text for WWI photo II. It should read: Hitler, Uffz. Wurm, Uffz. Lippert, Kriedmayer.

I think the photo of Max Mund looking at his portrait is interesting. This was done by Hitler and presented to Mund during the war. I wonder where it is today - in some plutocrat's collection, perhaps?
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jeffhan373
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Re: "Hitler's First War" by Thomas Weber

#30

Post by jeffhan373 » 29 Sep 2010, 22:42

More images....
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