"Hitler's First War" by Thomas Weber

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Sid Guttridge
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Re: "Hitler's First War" by Thomas Weber

#46

Post by Sid Guttridge » 25 Nov 2010, 18:46

Michael
I was interested to see that Hitler had 5 medals of valor.
I know about the Iron Cross I and II, but what were the others?

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Re: "Hitler's First War" by Thomas Weber

#47

Post by Ken S. » 26 Nov 2010, 06:45

Sanjay Dhutt wrote:Michael
I was interested to see that Hitler had 5 medals of valor.
I know about the Iron Cross I and II, but what were the others?
Not only that, he never rose above the rank of "Lieutenant Corporal" either... 8O

http://books.google.ca/books?id=Lz5UpZI ... ls&f=false

Here's a disccusion about his medals:
http://www.ww2f.com/medals-insignia-bad ... edals.html


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Peter H
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Re: "Hitler's First War" by Thomas Weber

#48

Post by Peter H » 26 Nov 2010, 10:33

See here as well:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 2&t=120558

As you can see, he writes: "on 17-9-1917, I was awarded the Cross of Military Merit, third class, with swords; on May 9, 1918, the regimental diploma; 4-8-1918 the Iron Cross, first class; on 18-5-1918 a black wound stripe; and on 25-8-1918 the Medal of Military Service, third class."

Sid Guttridge
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Re: "Hitler's First War" by Thomas Weber

#49

Post by Sid Guttridge » 26 Nov 2010, 14:29

Apart from the Iron Crosses, were any of the others awarded for valor?

There are other forms of service like being wounded, efficiency and other actions beyond the call of duty that attract medals for reasons other than valor.

A general question: Could a single act of valor attract medals from more than one German state for the same deed? In Hitler's case this might be Bavaria and Prussia.

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Jeff McCulloch
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Re: "Hitler's First War" by Thomas Weber

#50

Post by Jeff McCulloch » 27 Nov 2010, 08:44

Short answer- yes a single act could and did occasionally merit two or three different state awards.
The regimental diploma however, is very rare.

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Re: "Hitler's First War" by Thomas Weber

#51

Post by Sid Guttridge » 27 Nov 2010, 14:22

Thanks.

Why was a regimental diploma awarded?

Does it recognize some service not recognized in the universal medal system, or below the threshold these required?

Was it a purely internal award, or did it have wider standing?

Did the bearer wear any distinction on his uniform?

Thanks again.

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Re: "Hitler's First War" by Thomas Weber

#52

Post by Julian Moss » 08 Dec 2010, 07:28

To Thomas Webber,

I eagerly anticipate reading your book. It is winging its way to me via Amazon. I am currently editing a fictional novel that I have written with WWI as the backdrop to my protagonist. Adolf Hitler takes up about 15% of the novel from the outbreak of war to Christmas 1914 (about 51 pages of your book).
I would like to speak with you about your methods of research, although I have yet to read your work. Despite only 15% of my novel being about about Hitler, I would like to make that 15% as accurate as possible.
I have the book written by Fridolin Solleder on the List Regiment but it is in German and I am English.

Thank you

Julian Moss

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Re: "Hitler's First War" by Thomas Weber

#53

Post by murx » 30 Jan 2011, 23:07

The text which is attached is a simple description of A.H.'s WWI experience. Make up your own decision. The text is from Heinz A. Heinz: Germany's Hitler, Hurst & Blacket Ltd., London 1934.
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A.H.WWI.pdf
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Re: "Hitler's First War" by Thomas Weber

#54

Post by Sid Guttridge » 01 Feb 2011, 13:01

This link is one of the sources referred to by Weber in Hitler's First War and he deals extensively with how the "official" version was compiled.

Personal testimonies by some comrades of Hitler that were supportive of Hitler's reputation were officially compiled in the early 1930s, (when the linked text was written), and made publicly available. Weber points out that these continued to be used for long after WWII by later authors.

However, there were other less reputation-enhancing letters from other comrades of Hitler that were filed elsewhere and which Weber found in other parts of the archives and which were not previously known.

One of these has caused some contrioveresy in earlier posts because an old comrade writes directly to Hitler that front line troops (who categorized themselves as "Frontschwein" or "front line pigs") regarded himself and Hitler as rear area pigs ("Etappenscwhwein"). It is worth noting that this letter was not hostile to Hitler but was written in familar terms to a friend. It just doesn't appear to have been sufficiently supportive to be made publicly available by the Nazis at the time.

Germany's Hitler appears to be the official version of Hitler's WWII career. The point of Weber's Hitler's First War is to bring to light all the material the official version buried or glossed over. The result is a more agreeable and less fanatical young Hitler than one might have thought.

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Re: "Hitler's First War" by Thomas Weber

#55

Post by Keir » 10 Mar 2011, 23:59

My father just sent me an email from the Der Spiegel website about the book and showing photos of Hitler during this time I'd not seen before. It's at http://www.spiegel.de/international/ger ... 06,00.html
The argument explains Hitler's wartime longevity if not pair of iron crosses when getting one for a mere volunteer was rare. But then the article claims
Anyone who objected to this falsification of history was mercilessly persecuted -- and sent to a concentration camp. Hugo Gutmann, for example, one of the regiment's Jewish officers, fell into the clutches of the Gestapo in 1937 and was imprisoned for two months for "contemptuous, derogatory and untrue comments about the Führer."
the only example it gives is from a Jewish officer who found himself in a concentration camp by 1937 when no-one else, then or since, felt able to do so. Even SPD opponents had to stand up for his service in the 1920s. To quote John Williams in his book Corporal Hitler and the Great War 1914–1918 : the List Regiment:
Former List Regiment comrades, card-carrying Communists and Social Democrats among them, now testified to his qualities as a soldier. Wartime slackers, cowards or veterans tainted by left-wing or internationalist ideals could not become post- war army protégés, attend anti-Bolshevik courses at Munich university, or be employed as secret agents by the Reichswehr’s press and propaganda section – all of which Hitler managed. In the early 1920s former List Regiment officers freely described him as a man who ‘never let us down and was particularly suited to the kind of task that could not be entrusted to other runners’; or as being ‘mentally very much all there and physically fresh, alert and hardy. His pluck was exceptional, as was the reckless courage with which he tackled dangerous situations and the hazards of battle.’ Hitler provided a ‘shining example to those around him’, displaying ‘pluck [and] exemplary bearing throughout each battle’, and impressing by ‘his admirable unpretentiousness’, which earned him ‘the respect of superiors and equals alike’.

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Re: "Hitler's First War" by Thomas Weber

#56

Post by Keir » 23 Dec 2011, 20:19

I'm reading the book now over the break, and I have to say that it's a chore. The research is tremendous; as my last post stated, I didn't buy the idea that Hitler had been a "rear end pig" for the duration of the war and ended up speaking as one of the nameless soldiers with two Iron crosses and past employment with the army whilst everyone else had been demobbed, but I'm on the author's side. Mr. Weber certainly doesn't question Hitler's courage, but rather throws out the patently embellished myths. Hitler is shown simply as neither braver nor more cowardly than others in his regiment. The problem is that the writing is absolutely dire. He keeps repeating the same ideas over and over- the List regiment was mediocre, the Allies used their line to train their newbies, etc etc. Much has little to do with Hitler but is simply conjecture. Nor do I see why Mr. Weber believes that the Hoffman photo of Odeonsplatz of 1914 was doctored to show a crowded square when it looks damned crowded to me. He cites as evidence film footage he uncritically accepts as being that of the same time, and even considers someone in the crowd to have been Hitler despite little resemblance and serious questions raised about the provenance of the footage. The grammar too is poor. Great research, but shame he didn't get someone else to make the most of it or enjoyed a better editor.

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Re: "Hitler's First War" by Thomas Weber

#57

Post by tramonte » 07 Feb 2016, 17:14

The term "rear end pig" is kind of class warfare in wartime military. Not different than what happened in Finnish (or even Red Army) during the next world war. There was indeed huge gap between reality of front line service and those of HQ. Even the military death database telling the same story. The possibility of Finnish signal battalion soldier been killed in combat during summer campaign 1941 was surprisingly low 1:500 compared to soldiers fighting in rifle company of regiment (1:6, or 1:4 in Jaeger Battalion). Signal battalion was operating some 5-10 km behind the front line. I have no statistics of German WW1 combat deaths of rifle companies, signal battalions or HQ "rear end pigs". I won't be surprised if butchers bill was telling the same sad story. The life in front line for rifle companies have been different and bashing HQ soldiers had group behaving purpose. In Finnish WW2 military forces there was a habit among front line soldiers even question the manhood of HQ soldiers. For instance they used to call them "male Lotta" , concerning them as kind of wimps, not real men. (Lotta Svärd was a Finnish voluntary auxiliary paramilitary organisation for women.)

The idea that all veterans had similar identity and perspective to war itself is of course totally wrong. They were and are still much more divided than common wisdom is suggesting. Long after the war the story of war itself have been told mostly by HQ because those in front line were not eager to walk that bloody path again. They didn't have time to write the dairy. Story told by HQ has mostly been far from objective. I trust more death toll: killed soldiers don't lie.
"Military history is nothing but a tissue of fictions and legends, only a form of literary invention; reality counts for very little in such affair."

- Gaston de Pawlowski, Dans les rides du front

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Re: "Hitler's First War" by Thomas Weber

#58

Post by tramonte » 10 Feb 2016, 06:09

Keir wrote: To quote John Williams in his book Corporal Hitler and the Great War 1914–1918 : the List Regiment:
Former List Regiment comrades, card-carrying Communists and Social Democrats among them, now testified to his qualities as a soldier. Wartime slackers, cowards or veterans tainted by left-wing or internationalist ideals could not become post- war army protégés, attend anti-Bolshevik courses at Munich university, or be employed as secret agents by the Reichswehr’s press and propaganda section – all of which Hitler managed. In the early 1920s former List Regiment officers freely described him as a man who ‘never let us down and was particularly suited to the kind of task that could not be entrusted to other runners’; or as being ‘mentally very much all there and physically fresh, alert and hardy. His pluck was exceptional, as was the reckless courage with which he tackled dangerous situations and the hazards of battle.’ Hitler provided a ‘shining example to those around him’, displaying ‘pluck [and] exemplary bearing throughout each battle’, and impressing by ‘his admirable unpretentiousness’, which earned him ‘the respect of superiors and equals alike’.
I see this quote as a fine example of big picture. Hitler was "good soldier" for HQ because he didn't question the meaningless of war itself, show obedience. He was meek for them. No wonder why officers of HQ liked him. We can only think how different he would have been after 1918 if being a "front line pig". Would he have been much more pacifist? My guess is yes.
"Military history is nothing but a tissue of fictions and legends, only a form of literary invention; reality counts for very little in such affair."

- Gaston de Pawlowski, Dans les rides du front

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Re: "Hitler's First War" by Thomas Weber

#59

Post by tramonte » 21 Nov 2020, 19:36

So how much did historians really know about case of Hitler in Oct-Nov 1918 Pasewalk military hospital? For instance was that hospital only for mental cases or also for western front wounded soldiers?
"Military history is nothing but a tissue of fictions and legends, only a form of literary invention; reality counts for very little in such affair."

- Gaston de Pawlowski, Dans les rides du front

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Re: "Hitler's First War" by Thomas Weber

#60

Post by Louis Maraite » 01 Dec 2023, 14:18

One source in Thomas Weber's masterpiece is Fridolin Solleder, the editor, in 1932, of the "Errinnerungsblätter" (the daily journal - 502 pages) of RIR16, Hitler's Regiment. Solleder was a professional archivist, later Pr in History at the University of Erlangen. I don't find any informations abouts Solleder's post ww1 : did he have some relations with Hitler ? Can anyone help about it ?
Thanks

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