Grey Wolf - The Escape of Adolf Hitler

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Andy H
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Re: Grey Wolf - The Escape of Adolf Hitler

Post by Andy H » 12 Aug 2011 14:18

MajorT wrote:Hi Andy,

This book has been hyped here as bbeing co-authored by an "eminent military historian".

To me it shows all the classic signs of bait trailing for a conspiracy theory.

If authors can come on AHF, put up their publisher's PR puff and decline to answer questions on that PR puff's content, then the site becomes no more than a marketing tool for a few financially interested parties.

To his credit, Gerrard has taken sceptical contributions in good part, perhaps on the grounds that "any publicity is good publicity" in marketing terms. However, in the past, some authors have used the device of stickies to promote their book, accept fulsome praise from some friendly contributors and yet refuse to justify their books when pressed by other more sceptical contributors.

If authors want to use AHF to promote their books, they must expect the content of their contributions there, not just their book, to come under scrutiny.

Hi Major T

The obvious way to stop the bait-trailing (if thats what you believe this discussion to be so far) is to stop feeding from the bait trail in the first place.

Well I see no reason as to why the word eminent is an issue. The dictionary term seems to some up it up quite well:-
Well-Known and Well-Respected To some extent is all about perception but the fact that you yourself have some of his titles, tells me that unless you bought them for the pictures something about the authors narrative/style or knowledge appealed to you. I'm guessing that a guy who has 50books from a rather decent publishing outfit like Osprey has some gravitas and game. Were not getting into a character assessment of this co-author because of your dislike for the word eminent-Thats the end of it.

I credit the membership of the AHF especially those that inhabit the Research sections as having more nounce than your willing to give them credit for. We all know the PR stuff is mouthwash for those with halitosis but we have a choice to either swallow it or spit it out. Yes to some extent when we discuss a book (either new, re-issued or old) its a form of marketing and we have no issue with that. However nobody is suggesting that it should be a one-way glad handing exercise for the authors,publishers and marketing/PR people-and this thread is a perfect example of this.

Anyway thats a lock on this particular aspect of the conversation Major T. I'm aware of your POV and standpoint as you are of mine. I have no intention of going round the houses with you on this, so please dont waste our time by posting a response.

I'm half minded to lock this thread until the actual book has been published and somebody other than the author has read it and can comment with some knowledge about what the book contains. But I wont for the moment but please dont start baiting or start personnel vendettas because then I wont just lock the thread but remove it.

Regards to all

Andy H

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Grey Wolf - The Escape of Adolf Hitler

Post by Sid Guttridge » 12 Aug 2011 18:25

Hi Andy,

To repeat, I am not objecting to "bait trailing" - AHF, for good or ill, allows it. I just object to denial of it when it is patently happening.

The dictionary definition of "eminent" I have is "Famous and respected within a particular sphere". Again, to repeat, this book is not, on past evidence, within either author's "particular sphere". This doesn't mean it may not be a masterpiece, just that advertising their past history doesn't add much to its credibility when you actually look at the detail of the CVs.

You are absolutely right, I am not getting into a character assessment of "this co-author". If you believe that I am, then you are entirely mistaken. He has not claimed anything for himself and is therefore entirely blameless here. He is probably embarrassed at receiving this unwanted attention.

Nobody is denying that "a guy who has 50 books from a rather decent publishing outfit like Osprey has some gravitas and game." Its just that this "gravitas" is associated with a somewhat different "game" from the book under discussion. If Osprey authors can legitimately be considered "eminient military historians", we are going to run out of superlatives to do justice to the likes of John Keegan, David Glantz, John Erickson, etc.

You write, "I credit the membership of the AHF especially those that inhabit the Research sections as having more nounce than your willing to give them credit for." I have a number of possible replies to this appeal to the gallery, but I think it best to let it pass.

"We all know the PR stuff is mouthwash for those with halitosis but we have a choice to either swallow it or spit it out." Not my chosen turn of phrase, but agreed. I was "spitting it out" on thread, with reasons and more politely.

You write "....please dont start baiting or start personnel vendettas......". Gerrard seems polite and well meaning and Simon is not even party to this discussion, so I don't see any likelihood of that.

projectgreywolf
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Re: Grey Wolf - The Escape of Adolf Hitler

Post by projectgreywolf » 12 Aug 2011 18:50

Dear All,
I'm not going to get into this. To those showing interest and scrutiny my thanks. I'll return sometime in October and post some reviews if I have had any.
With all best wishes to the forum team and members.
Gerrard

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Andy H
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Re: Grey Wolf - The Escape of Adolf Hitler

Post by Andy H » 13 Aug 2011 00:12

Hi

Well now that the principle has taken his leave until the published book is available, I think it wise and warranted to lock this thread since we all know where we stand on the matter.

I'll re-open the thread come the publishing date

Regards to all

Andy H

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Marcus
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Re: Grey Wolf - The Escape of Adolf Hitler

Post by Marcus » 12 Oct 2011 17:25

The book is now published so the thread is now unlocked.

/Marcus

projectgreywolf
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Re: Grey Wolf - The Escape of Adolf Hitler

Post by projectgreywolf » 12 Oct 2011 21:00

Dear All, I thought I'd put up some sample chapters to get the discussion going again
http://issuu.com/sterlingexport/docs/greywolfsample
All the best
Gerrard

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Re: Grey Wolf - The Escape of Adolf Hitler

Post by Mark Costa » 13 Oct 2011 02:10

I am several chapters into the book right now and I can say that it is very interesting but you or your editor have made several minor mistakes in regards to Martin Bormann. I will hold my comments until after I have finished the book but will say that if Martin Bormann's survival is your lynchpin to this mystery then I will have a lot of things that you will not want to hear.

Mark Costa

projectgreywolf
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Re: Grey Wolf - The Escape of Adolf Hitler

Post by projectgreywolf » 13 Oct 2011 10:17

Hi Mark, I look forward to your comments, especially about Bormann. With the West German DNA Evidence pretty much shown to be an outright lie, and the eyewitnesses we have post-war, I'll be fascinated to see what you put forward.
All the best
Gerrard

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Re: Grey Wolf - The Escape of Adolf Hitler

Post by Mark Costa » 14 Oct 2011 00:40

Well I have now finished the book. OMG what can I say. There is not room enough for me to even start to tell how much BS this is. I could not find one piece of solid evidence that Hitler survived and escaped. Everything is hearsay and even the authors own words state that sections were "italics to identify conclusions based on deductive research". Meaning we added things that MAY have happened and this our guess !! Paul Manning's book is used for things like Bormann's escape with the fake SS officer named Tiburtius who has been debunked a thousand times. The DNA is now false on Bormann --- Please someone tell me which laboratory refuted the accepted findings??? Anyone ?? Even though Martin Bormann Jr has stated on many occasions that he believed the body to be of his father -- somehow now the Borman family denied this -- please show me the statements made by the Bormann family stating this. And why is it that everyone forgets that Bormann's body was found next to Dr. Stumpfegger's who also was positively identified ??? !!! Did they fake Stumpfegger's body too !! ???

I could go on and on but what would be the point. Werner Baumbach flew Hitler out. Ilsa Braun knew about it too. So did Gretl Braun. Fegelein was not shot. Hanna Reitsch "saw" a pilot waiting for passenger. Oh thats real evidence -- so she saw a pilot waiting for a passenger -- of course it must have been Hitler !! Just show me one intelligence document with actual evidence other than hearsay ?? Sure there a few photos of FBI documents of Hitler living in Brazil -- so what, there are also FBI documents about Little Green Men in Roswell and sitings of Amerlia Earhart in Japan.

The book is only 291 pages of writing --footnotes not included -- footnotes of passages from other books. It took me about the first 130 pages before we even got to Hitler. I had to read about V-Weapons, the battle of Kursk, British secret agents in Tunisia in 1943 -- like that has any relevance to Hitler escaping. An entire chapter on lost and stolen nazi confiscated art.

And I had to laugh because the authors could not even get Hitler's double's name correct -- It was Gustav WELER not Weber !!!!

Bottom line --- save your money and your time --wish I had. Just my opinion of the book. Others may find it more entertaining and factual but I did not.

Mark Costa

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Re: Grey Wolf - The Escape of Adolf Hitler

Post by phylo_roadking » 14 Oct 2011 02:00

What's that thing they use on ww2f....Oh yes -

"phylo_roadking likes this" @Mark....

:D
Twenty years ago we had Johnny Cash, Bob Hope and Steve Jobs. Now we have no Cash, no Hope and no Jobs....
Lord, please keep Kevin Bacon alive...

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Re: Grey Wolf - The Escape of Adolf Hitler

Post by Michael Miller » 14 Oct 2011 02:33

Bravo, Mark. Thanks for saving us a lot of unnecessary expense and effort.
~ Mike

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Re: Grey Wolf - The Escape of Adolf Hitler

Post by J. Duncan » 14 Oct 2011 08:35

Red flags were posted in my mind right away when I discovered Manning used as a primary source in his posted notes pages. I believe I mentioned Manning right away as spurious BEFORE Gerrard even showed that he had used him. Manning's book is the worst tripe and unfortunately there's no shortage of writers who want to follow in his footsteps. The video clip Gerrard posted also was illustrative of the hearsay nature of his work. Like Orlando Figes says in his great book on the Russian Revolution ("A People's Tragedy") : "fiction sells more books than history".
Like I said, time would have better been served had he done a more believable and factual work on the escape and post-war life of Ante Pavelic....however I do not think he would have made the kind of MONEY $$$ on Pavelic as he will make hawking a book on the fictional escape of Hitler. I can hear the publishers' bellowings to Gerrard: "Show me the money!!" (ala Jerry McGuire)....it all boils down to what MONEY is to be made with such tripe.
Sorry Mark that you got taken for a ride, but your efforts will have saved a good many of us the MONEY that would have lined the pockets of these hucksters. Maybe you can return the book for a refund?
Despite the efforts of those who know better, this book will probably sell as the world average IQ is probably down to about the mid 60's. Like the quote often attributed to Lenin, these are the required but "useful idiots" to keep the heralds of such wizardry in business.

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Re: Grey Wolf - The Escape of Adolf Hitler

Post by projectgreywolf » 14 Oct 2011 10:24

Mark, thanks for your review

Just a couple of Points:


Well I have now finished the book. OMG what can I say. There is not room enough for me to even start to tell how much BS this is. I could not find one piece of solid evidence that Hitler survived and escaped. Everything is hearsay and even the authors own words state that sections were "italics to identify conclusions based on deductive research". Meaning we added things that MAY have happened and this our guess !! Paul Manning's book is used for things like Bormann's escape with the fake SS officer named Tiburtius who has been debunked a thousand times. The DNA is now false on Bormann --- Please someone tell me which laboratory refuted the accepted findings??? Anyone ?? Even though Martin Bormann Jr has stated on many occasions that he believed the body to be of his father -- somehow now the Borman family denied this -- please show me the statements made by the Bormann family stating this. And why is it that everyone forgets that Bormann's body was found next to Dr. Stumpfegger's who also was positively identified ??? !!! Did they fake Stumpfegger's body too !! ??? ( If you wish to believe the West German Government's cover story that's your perogative But from our research that's what we believe. Of course governments lie all the time Tony Blair and WMD in Iraq comes to mind as one shining example.

I could go on and on but what would be the point. Werner Baumbach flew Hitler out.(We don't say this, Captain Baumgart Flew Hitler Out) Ilsa Braun knew about it too.(Baumgart said he flew Ilse out) So did Gretl Braun ( We Never said she did) . Fegelein was not shot. (General Mohnke said he had no knowledge of Fegelein's supposed executuion) Hanna Reitsch "saw" a pilot waiting for passenger. What Hanna Reitsch actually said was that she and Von Greim saw a JU52 "near the runway, a lone pilot was standing by in the shadows. He was obviously waiting for somebody." Oh thats real evidence -- so she saw a pilot waiting for a passenger -- of course it must have been Hitler !! Just show me one intelligence document with actual evidence other than hearsay ?? Sure there a few photos of FBI documents of Hitler living in Brazil (one FBI Document reports his visiting Casino on the Brazilian Border, the rest are from Argentina.) -- so what, there are also FBI documents about Little Green Men in Roswell and sitings of Amerlia Earhart in Japan.

The book is only 291 pages of writing --footnotes not included -- footnotes of passages from other books.(3 and a half of Books, 5 and a half of other sources including declassified documents, National Archive references, Agency reports, Magazine sources, original interviews etctera). It took me about the first 130 pages before we even got to Hitler. I had to read about V-Weapons, the battle of Kursk, British secret agents in Tunisia in 1943 -- like that has any relevance to Hitler escaping. An entire chapter on lost and stolen nazi confiscated art. (we feel it was important to put the escape in context for readers less knowledgable than yourself)

And I had to laugh because the authors could not even get Hitler's double's name correct -- It was Gustav WELER not Weber !!!! (I'd be grateful if you could give me the source confirming it was Weler and not Weber, as most historians do not even admit he had a double. Our section on the last known photos of AH with the Hitler Youth on March 20th 1945 prove for the first time that he did have at least one double. Declassified British Reports from 1944 we found after writing the book, confirmed there were two at the Obersalzberg with Him. Neither is given a name)

Bottom line --- save your money and your time --wish I had. Just my opinion of the book. Others may find it more entertaining and factual but I did not.

Mark, I am grateful that you have read it and value your comments. I would have been more grateful if you had quoted accurately from the book and not made certain things, as detailed above, up.

Gerrard Williams


Mark Costa
Last edited by Dieter Zinke on 06 May 2012 09:21, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Obersalzberg - not Obersalzburg

projectgreywolf
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Re: Grey Wolf - The Escape of Adolf Hitler

Post by projectgreywolf » 14 Oct 2011 10:39

J. Duncan wrote:Red flags were posted in my mind right away when I discovered Manning used as a primary source in his posted notes pages. I believe I mentioned Manning right away as spurious BEFORE Gerrard even showed that he had used him. Manning's book is the worst tripe and unfortunately there's no shortage of writers who want to follow in his footsteps. The video clip Gerrard posted also was illustrative of the hearsay nature of his work. Like Orlando Figes says in his great book on the Russian Revolution ("A People's Tragedy") : "fiction sells more books than history".
Like I said, time would have better been served had he done a more believable and factual work on the escape and post-war life of Ante Pavelic....however I do not think he would have made the kind of MONEY $$$ on Pavelic as he will make hawking a book on the fictional escape of Hitler. I can hear the publishers' bellowings to Gerrard: "Show me the money!!" (ala Jerry McGuire)....it all boils down to what MONEY is to be made with such tripe.
Sorry Mark that you got taken for a ride, but your efforts will have saved a good many of us the MONEY that would have lined the pockets of these hucksters. Maybe you can return the book for a refund?
Despite the efforts of those who know better, this book will probably sell as the world average IQ is probably down to about the mid 60's. Like the quote often attributed to Lenin, these are the required but "useful idiots" to keep the heralds of such wizardry in business.

You are entitled to your views on Manning. I don't accept them, but I'm entitled to mine too.
Did you ever get the link I sent you on the "Two bullets for Pavelic" book? It's an interesting read.

As for the money side of things, I have never been so broke in my life, having spent five years unpaid working on this project. But enough sob stories. I'm glad to be felt "useful" although obviously not mad about being called an "idiot" and a "Huckster". We have simply reported what we have discovered.

Best Regards

Gerrard

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Re: Grey Wolf - The Escape of Adolf Hitler

Post by paspartoo » 14 Oct 2011 10:53

You're barking up the wrong tree Gerrard these guys will only believe something if a guy in a white suit tells them it's true.I haven't read your book and i probably won't simply because my interests lie elsewhere,however i would never form an opinion based on what someone posts in a forum.For all of you who know 100% whats true why don't you try this: 1).Go to the archives and read up on a subject that interests you. 2). Read books by respected authors and ''historians'' dealing with this subject . Will the books agree with the material in the archives ?
Good night and good luck.
A simple economist with an unhealthy interest in military and intelligence history.....
http://chris-intel-corner.blogspot.com/

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