Roman Töppel: 'The War, One Great Adventure: The Writer and "Historian" Franz Kurowski'

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Re: Roman Töppel: 'The War, One Great Adventure: The Writer and "Historian" Franz Kurowski'

#256

Post by Cult Icon » 29 Nov 2018, 17:49

Urmel wrote:
29 Nov 2018, 17:10


Truer words were never spoken...
The character of the writer should be rubbished, as well deserved.

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Re: Roman Töppel: 'The War, One Great Adventure: The Writer and "Historian" Franz Kurowski'

#257

Post by Cult Icon » 29 Nov 2018, 17:51

Urmel wrote:
29 Nov 2018, 15:54
I have read Kurowski, way back when, in German. Grew out of it.

Anyone who accuses authors he doesn't like as 'left-leaning' and uses the dog whistle of 'virtue signalling' is not apolitical. The only question is how far to the far right you are.
Your accusation that I am "right wing" is beyond laughable, it says more about you and nothing about me. Virtue signaling is a term from psychology.

Most academic works on the Third Reich are not without bias, I would say that most of them tend toward roasting the Reich in a deliberate manner for the sake of their careers. This is why we have amateur historians who cover the non-politically correct areas like military operations.

In "Rise and Fall of Comradeship", the author periodically roasts the German soldier from a feminist/social justice lens (use of terms: racist, misogynist, sexist, protean masculinity, etc. and talks about classes) . Not appropriate, if I wanted politics I just have to expose myself to the 24-7 political media.
Last edited by Cult Icon on 29 Nov 2018, 18:11, edited 2 times in total.


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Re: Roman Töppel: 'The War, One Great Adventure: The Writer and "Historian" Franz Kurowski'

#258

Post by Cult Icon » 29 Nov 2018, 18:00

Orwell1984 wrote:
29 Nov 2018, 17:14

And it's bad history. It's hagiography and propaganda that has its footing in the Cold War when the East were the big bad enemy we knew nothing about and were coming to get us us all. I wouldn't recommend reading Sgt Rock comics to any one interested in accurate accounts of the American GI figthing in France either. Kurowski, Carrell, Caiden, Whiting et al times' have passed. Beevor, Hastings and their ilk are a tad better (at least they understand what citations are) but still not the best. Kurowski and the writers similar to him and were a symptom of the era they were produced in and thankfully time has moved on and we have better history to choose from.
Why a serious student of history would insist on reading garbage when there's much better stuff out there baffles me. I have barely enough time to read the good stuff I want to waste time reading the historical version of (un)reality TV.
To each their own I guess :?
I agree with some of what you say, but other points I find exaggerated, and written in the spirit of the Toppel article. You are not wrong in general but it's "not as bad" as you are depicting it. I recently revisited one of the books and did not find it this "over the top" in the bias aspects. It's a matter of nuance.

Ok, serious student, what other material do you have on eg.:

Lt. General Helmuth Beukemann
Colonel Albert Brux
Lt. colonel Georg Feig
Major "Hannes" Grimminger
Major General Joachim Kahler
General of the Panzer Troops Hasso von Manteuffeul
Major Georg Michael

If you had the german sources it would be better to go there, not disagreed on this account.

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Re: Roman Töppel: 'The War, One Great Adventure: The Writer and "Historian" Franz Kurowski'

#259

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 29 Nov 2018, 18:44

Jan-Hendrik wrote:
22 Sep 2018, 07:41
Fact is....

Myself personally met Bose, Rubbel and Ritgen. All comments were about in this mood....have I experienced the same war??


Ritgen commented Kurowski's book on Panzerlehr with the words:

Nach dem lesen dachte ich nur Helmut, warst du eigentlich an der selben Front im Einsatz?

He produced, like Mr.Trump, faction....

My 2 cents

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Just to get back on topic...

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Re: Roman Töppel: 'The War, One Great Adventure: The Writer and "Historian" Franz Kurowski'

#260

Post by j keenan » 29 Nov 2018, 19:14

Michael Kenny wrote:
28 Nov 2018, 21:16
Christianmunich wrote:
28 Nov 2018, 19:13


* There is zero evidence for another German unit claiming tanks in this area on this day, there is zero evidence for British losses being caused by anything else, German unit and or became casualties for other reasons they still would not drastically contradict the Tiger claims which are fully covered by British losses.

The 23rd Hussars history mentions this for Aug 6th :

the enemy began to creep round the left flank. As darkness was
falling they reached the top of the hill and began to 'bazooka' the
tanks.


And I checked Egger's award citation. It credits him and two other vehicles (3 Tigers in total) with 18 kills.
12? 16? 18?
any advance on 18?
What does Egger's citation have to do with anything ?
Can you post the citation or give a reference to a book that it's in ?

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Re: Roman Töppel: 'The War, One Great Adventure: The Writer and "Historian" Franz Kurowski'

#261

Post by Orwell1984 » 29 Nov 2018, 19:20

Cult Icon wrote:
29 Nov 2018, 18:00
Orwell1984 wrote:
29 Nov 2018, 17:14

And it's bad history. It's hagiography and propaganda that has its footing in the Cold War when the East were the big bad enemy we knew nothing about and were coming to get us us all. I wouldn't recommend reading Sgt Rock comics to any one interested in accurate accounts of the American GI figthing in France either. Kurowski, Carrell, Caiden, Whiting et al times' have passed. Beevor, Hastings and their ilk are a tad better (at least they understand what citations are) but still not the best. Kurowski and the writers similar to him and were a symptom of the era they were produced in and thankfully time has moved on and we have better history to choose from.
Why a serious student of history would insist on reading garbage when there's much better stuff out there baffles me. I have barely enough time to read the good stuff I want to waste time reading the historical version of (un)reality TV.
To each their own I guess :?
I agree with some of what you say, but other points I find exaggerated, and written in the spirit of the Toppel article. You are not wrong in general but it's "not as bad" as you are depicting it. I recently revisited one of the books and did not find it this "over the top" in the bias aspects. It's a matter of nuance.

Ok, serious student, what other material do you have on eg.:

Lt. General Helmuth Beukemann
Colonel Albert Brux
Lt. colonel Georg Feig
Major "Hannes" Grimminger
Major General Joachim Kahler
General of the Panzer Troops Hasso von Manteuffeul
Major Georg Michael

If you had the german sources it would be better to go there, not disagreed on this account.
Someone seems rather defensive about their love of Kurowski and shows a rather quick propensity to make it personal and political with those who disagree with him. You're rather quick to slap labels on those you disagree with (over the top, virtur signalling) while not showing the same behaviour with those you're defending.
Did I claim to be a serious student? No. So don't go off creating strawmen.

The Eastern Front is not my area of interest but I have Lawrence's book on Kursk, some of Glantz's work on different aspects of the campaign, Bergstrom's work on the air, Koppel's book on Kursk, and number of books by Zamulin, Luther, Filippenkov, Buttar, Statiev, Stahel, etc etc.
I don't have anything on the officers you list because, frankly, I'm not interested in them.

I have obtained a graduate degree in history and also taught at a graduate level in university. This doesn't make me an expert by any means but it has taught me through research, course preparation, historiography and teaching to form an view on what is good history and what is substandard history. Kurowski with his lack of citations, breathless writing style, one sidedness, surface level research and dated viewpoints is not good history.
What you chose to read is obviously up to you. But I stand by judgement on Kurowski's work. It's fast food history. Easy to digest, simple to find, doesn't ask much of the reader and doesn't provide much nutritional (knowledge value) value.

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Re: Roman Töppel: 'The War, One Great Adventure: The Writer and "Historian" Franz Kurowski'

#262

Post by Christianmunich » 29 Nov 2018, 20:09

As a side question, is it possible that Kurowski and other like him were "necessary" to get the information we now all can use? German soldiers were obviously part of a terrible campaign against humanity. Talking about this afterwards is difficult on its own but those soldiers would likely have never opened up to a writer who would write "honestly" and accurate. I saw the video of Kurowski getting confronted about a unit committing crimes in the Netherlands. He obviously is flustered and lies about this. But that got me thinking, if he wrote about all the war crimes in all his books people might would have stopped talking with.

With that said my opinion, for which likely nobody cares, is that Kurowskis books are "romanticised pop history" he is more a collector of tales than a researcher. Which maybe was the only way. The moments he starts questioning kill claims and the morality of the Soldiers, the doors will not open again.

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Re: Roman Töppel: 'The War, One Great Adventure: The Writer and "Historian" Franz Kurowski'

#263

Post by Urmel » 29 Nov 2018, 20:18

Talk about missing the point.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

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Re: Roman Töppel: 'The War, One Great Adventure: The Writer and "Historian" Franz Kurowski'

#264

Post by Urmel » 29 Nov 2018, 20:22

Cult Icon wrote:
29 Nov 2018, 17:49
Urmel wrote:
29 Nov 2018, 17:10


Truer words were never spoken...
The character of the writer should be rubbished, as well deserved.
Of course, character assassination instead of engaging with the argument.

What, if anything, is factually incorrect in Toeppel’s article?

All you and the other Kurowski fanboy have supplied until now are attacks on Toeppel. That tells me all I need to know.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: Roman Töppel: 'The War, One Great Adventure: The Writer and "Historian" Franz Kurowski'

#265

Post by Richard Anderson » 29 Nov 2018, 20:24

Jan-Hendrik wrote:
29 Nov 2018, 18:44
Jan-Hendrik wrote:
22 Sep 2018, 07:41
Fact is....

Myself personally met Bose, Rubbel and Ritgen. All comments were about in this mood....have I experienced the same war??


Ritgen commented Kurowski's book on Panzerlehr with the words:

Nach dem lesen dachte ich nur Helmut, warst du eigentlich an der selben Front im Einsatz?

He produced, like Mr.Trump, faction....

My 2 cents

Jan-Hendrik
Just to get back on topic...
And just like that, the Threadjacker 2000TM was turned off.

...but Töppel's translator misspelled things and used poor grammar! :lol:

There, got that out of the way. :D

Meantime, as Töppel, Ritgen, Kliemann, Bose, and Rubbel all agreed he was writing rubbish. If the guys who were there and told Kurowski about can't have that opinion, then who can?
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Re: Roman Töppel: 'The War, One Great Adventure: The Writer and "Historian" Franz Kurowski'

#266

Post by Urmel » 29 Nov 2018, 20:25

Orwell1984 wrote:
29 Nov 2018, 19:20
Cult Icon wrote:
29 Nov 2018, 18:00
Orwell1984 wrote:
29 Nov 2018, 17:14

And it's bad history. It's hagiography and propaganda that has its footing in the Cold War when the East were the big bad enemy we knew nothing about and were coming to get us us all. I wouldn't recommend reading Sgt Rock comics to any one interested in accurate accounts of the American GI figthing in France either. Kurowski, Carrell, Caiden, Whiting et al times' have passed. Beevor, Hastings and their ilk are a tad better (at least they understand what citations are) but still not the best. Kurowski and the writers similar to him and were a symptom of the era they were produced in and thankfully time has moved on and we have better history to choose from.
Why a serious student of history would insist on reading garbage when there's much better stuff out there baffles me. I have barely enough time to read the good stuff I want to waste time reading the historical version of (un)reality TV.
To each their own I guess :?
I agree with some of what you say, but other points I find exaggerated, and written in the spirit of the Toppel article. You are not wrong in general but it's "not as bad" as you are depicting it. I recently revisited one of the books and did not find it this "over the top" in the bias aspects. It's a matter of nuance.

Ok, serious student, what other material do you have on eg.:

Lt. General Helmuth Beukemann
Colonel Albert Brux
Lt. colonel Georg Feig
Major "Hannes" Grimminger
Major General Joachim Kahler
General of the Panzer Troops Hasso von Manteuffeul
Major Georg Michael

If you had the german sources it would be better to go there, not disagreed on this account.
Someone seems rather defensive about their love of Kurowski and shows a rather quick propensity to make it personal and political with those who disagree with him. You're rather quick to slap labels on those you disagree with (over the top, virtur signalling) while not showing the same behaviour with those you're defending.
Did I claim to be a serious student? No. So don't go off creating strawmen.

The Eastern Front is not my area of interest but I have Lawrence's book on Kursk, some of Glantz's work on different aspects of the campaign, Bergstrom's work on the air, Koppel's book on Kursk, and number of books by Zamulin, Luther, Filippenkov, Buttar, Statiev, Stahel, etc etc.
I don't have anything on the officers you list because, frankly, I'm not interested in them.

I have obtained a graduate degree in history and also taught at a graduate level in university. This doesn't make me an expert by any means but it has taught me through research, course preparation, historiography and teaching to form an view on what is good history and what is substandard history. Kurowski with his lack of citations, breathless writing style, one sidedness, surface level research and dated viewpoints is not good history.
What you chose to read is obviously up to you. But I stand by judgement on Kurowski's work. It's fast food history. Easy to digest, simple to find, doesn't ask much of the reader and doesn't provide much nutritional (knowledge value) value.
Indeed. And of course Kurowskifanboy #2 is badly missing the point. Since we know that Kurowski is inventing stuff, what value does the material he provides hold? None, obviously, because there is no way to tell whether it is correct or another invention, unless you have sufficient knowledge already, in which case why bother with this tripe?
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: Roman Töppel: 'The War, One Great Adventure: The Writer and "Historian" Franz Kurowski'

#267

Post by Richard Anderson » 29 Nov 2018, 20:35

Urmel wrote:
29 Nov 2018, 20:22
Cult Icon wrote:
29 Nov 2018, 17:49
Urmel wrote:
29 Nov 2018, 17:10


Truer words were never spoken...
The character of the writer should be rubbished, as well deserved.
Of course, character assassination instead of engaging with the argument.

What, if anything, is factually incorrect in Toeppel’s article?

All you and the other Kurowski fanboy have supplied until now are attacks on Toeppel. That tells me all I need to know.
I suspect it is something like the attitude I had regarding Bob Heinlein's science fiction. I devoured them all as a I kid, hoped for more, and was saddened by his death. I still feel that way now, but also know that he had a couple of screws loose regarding honesty, morality, nudity, pedophilia, and extreme libertarianism, and was hardly the greatest wordsmith of all time.

I also loved Paul Carell as a kid, but by the time I got to Kurowski, Whiting, et al, I wasn't such a kid anymore and had been taught some academic rigor, so chose to look at some original sources before going on. Now, the first thing I do is flip to the bibliography and notes for any secondary work that catches my interest (and few do), which tells me pretty much everything I need to know about the quality of the work and then I'l simply slog through the poor writing, bad grammar, and misspellings if neccessary.
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Re: Roman Töppel: 'The War, One Great Adventure: The Writer and "Historian" Franz Kurowski'

#268

Post by Michael Kenny » 29 Nov 2018, 20:57

j keenan wrote:
29 Nov 2018, 19:14

What does Egger's citation have to do with anything ?
Fey's account of knocking out 15 Shermans is virtually certain to be based on the exploits in Egger's citation. The '2 Tigers 1 of which was damaged' is the same and if I were a betting man I would say the 'damaged' Tiger is Fey's. I would also bet my house that Fey simply took all the incidents over 2 days of action and re-worked them into a single massive (and invented) British all-arms assault on the Tigers and gave himself a pivotal role. It is well know that Fey and Egger became mortal enemies after the war and they never missed a chance to do down the other. Its just a fight between 2 old soldiers over a claim that has assumed legendary status among gullible Tiger fans.[/quote]
I mentioned the source earlier in the thread and also added a post a few years back to the original Fey thread again with source. I will scan the pages from Schnieder's 'Das Reich Tigers' book (page 399-401) later tonight

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Das-Reich-Tige ... 0921991835

Fey's famous victory is repeated in the Cazenave book on SS 102. The link is to the German version. My copy is in French and I simply can not be bothered doing a translation.

https://www.amazon.de/Tiger-schwere-Kom ... 9XJ4MC3EXG

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Re: Roman Töppel: 'The War, One Great Adventure: The Writer and "Historian" Franz Kurowski'

#269

Post by j keenan » 29 Nov 2018, 21:53

@ Michael
It's ok I have the Das Reich book cheers

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Re: Roman Töppel: 'The War, One Great Adventure: The Writer and "Historian" Franz Kurowski'

#270

Post by j keenan » 29 Nov 2018, 22:04

What's strange is his KC recommendation tells a different tale than his German cross in gold recommendation for for actions on Hill 112 and know mention of his 8.44 actions.

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