I would like to have your suggestions about futher reading about battle of Berlin ?
I have just finished Beevors new Berlin book
Thanks
KW
Books about Battle of Berlin
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Juha Hujanen
- Member
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- Joined: 20 Mar 2002, 12:32
- Location: Suur-Savo,Finland
Beevor
Have a look at my comments in tge 'Reference' section.
Well, come to think of it, a little cut&paste can do no harm
I have just finished it, and I find it a failure and not much better -an in many aspects worse- than earlier books (Toland, Ryan, Le Tissier...)
-This is not really a book on the battle for Berlin. It's main subject is, by far, the sufferings of civilian population, and specially the often atrocious behaviour of the Red Army, gang-rape being among the most frequent subjects. I believe Beevor was justly acclaimed for his pages on the terrible realities of War in 'Stalingrad'. Now he has overdone it.
-His treatment of tactical operations is at best perfunctory. He jumps from the operational level (at Front ot Army level) to the 'worm's eye'views of soldiers or civilians. So, do not hope to see any real discussion of what happened at tactical level at Seelow (apart from Beevor's plain opinion that Zukhov paid for his mistake with the blood of his soldiers -more or less literal-. Le Tissier is much, much better at this.
-Not very detailed on small units, or even at divisional level. You won't find much on Muncheberg PZDiv, and nothing at all on, for example, the Spanish SS units fighting in central Berlin to the very end.
-Rather superficial in political aspects too. I'd rather have Toland's 'The last 100 Days', or Ryan's than this one for the overall picture. He is rather strong, however, when correlating political and military matters (the day after Stalin said this, Zukhov did that, and so on).
-True, he uses new archival material, but he uses it mostly for the anecdote, 'à la Ryan'. But however, IMO he does not manage to use these personal accounts for a really interesting view of the military aspects of the battle. While Le Tissier's cites, for example, are always useful for the understanding of different tactical or military points, Beevor's are 80% to prove that war is hell, something we already knew. 'Rape' is probably the most often cited word in the book (well, perhaps I exaggerate a little bit).
-Illustrations: Maps are completely dissapointing. Clearly designed for the complete layman, they only show units at army level, and concentrate on those in certain operations. Very limited and utterly uninformative.
-Appendixes: None. Does not even include an Order of Battle (even at Army level), something he did in his 'Stalingrad'.
-Narrative: Gripping. Very well written. In comparison Le Tissier is rather dull.
-Overall: For the interested military buff or amateur historian, not to mention the professional, this is a rather dissapointing book, much worse than 'Stalingrad' (that paid much more attention to the actual battle). Obviously meant for the VERY general public, nothing really new, not very detailed in military matters.
PS: Now I read the whole tirade again, it looks as if I think this is a bad book.
No, it is not. It ios a great book provided you take it as it is, and acknowledge it is not a manual of tactics.
I personally found it disapointing because it did not fulfill my expectations. But it is a great book from many points of view. Problem is, I read it after Le Tissier's, and found it wanting in military detail. But it is otherwise a good book: over 400 pages, you cannot leave it once you begin reading, and it is full of anecdotal material.
Cheers
Well, come to think of it, a little cut&paste can do no harm
I have just finished it, and I find it a failure and not much better -an in many aspects worse- than earlier books (Toland, Ryan, Le Tissier...)
-This is not really a book on the battle for Berlin. It's main subject is, by far, the sufferings of civilian population, and specially the often atrocious behaviour of the Red Army, gang-rape being among the most frequent subjects. I believe Beevor was justly acclaimed for his pages on the terrible realities of War in 'Stalingrad'. Now he has overdone it.
-His treatment of tactical operations is at best perfunctory. He jumps from the operational level (at Front ot Army level) to the 'worm's eye'views of soldiers or civilians. So, do not hope to see any real discussion of what happened at tactical level at Seelow (apart from Beevor's plain opinion that Zukhov paid for his mistake with the blood of his soldiers -more or less literal-. Le Tissier is much, much better at this.
-Not very detailed on small units, or even at divisional level. You won't find much on Muncheberg PZDiv, and nothing at all on, for example, the Spanish SS units fighting in central Berlin to the very end.
-Rather superficial in political aspects too. I'd rather have Toland's 'The last 100 Days', or Ryan's than this one for the overall picture. He is rather strong, however, when correlating political and military matters (the day after Stalin said this, Zukhov did that, and so on).
-True, he uses new archival material, but he uses it mostly for the anecdote, 'à la Ryan'. But however, IMO he does not manage to use these personal accounts for a really interesting view of the military aspects of the battle. While Le Tissier's cites, for example, are always useful for the understanding of different tactical or military points, Beevor's are 80% to prove that war is hell, something we already knew. 'Rape' is probably the most often cited word in the book (well, perhaps I exaggerate a little bit).
-Illustrations: Maps are completely dissapointing. Clearly designed for the complete layman, they only show units at army level, and concentrate on those in certain operations. Very limited and utterly uninformative.
-Appendixes: None. Does not even include an Order of Battle (even at Army level), something he did in his 'Stalingrad'.
-Narrative: Gripping. Very well written. In comparison Le Tissier is rather dull.
-Overall: For the interested military buff or amateur historian, not to mention the professional, this is a rather dissapointing book, much worse than 'Stalingrad' (that paid much more attention to the actual battle). Obviously meant for the VERY general public, nothing really new, not very detailed in military matters.
PS: Now I read the whole tirade again, it looks as if I think this is a bad book.
No, it is not. It ios a great book provided you take it as it is, and acknowledge it is not a manual of tactics.
I personally found it disapointing because it did not fulfill my expectations. But it is a great book from many points of view. Problem is, I read it after Le Tissier's, and found it wanting in military detail. But it is otherwise a good book: over 400 pages, you cannot leave it once you begin reading, and it is full of anecdotal material.
Cheers
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David C. Clarke
- In memoriam
- Posts: 11368
- Joined: 10 Mar 2002, 18:17
- Location: U.S. of A.
Yep!
Yes, I pretty much agree with Fridolin's analysis. On thing I'll add about the "flavor" of the book. Not a single person's actions are ever ascribed by Beevor to be the result of heroism. Beevor would have us believe that the fear of execution acted as the primary motivation for both the Soviets and the Germans. He simply does not acknowledge heroism as a human trait, something I found very distressing. Cheers, D
Hi There
First time for me on this board, I have been reading here alot latley and thought I might as well join as I have always been interested in this period. My favourite book about the Berlin Battle is The Fall of Berlin - Anthony Read and David Fisher.
I have read it many times and always enjoy pulling this book out and starting again.
Similar subject would have to be The BerlinBunker- James P. O'Donnell.
Although not really about the street fighting but shows a well investigated look into the last days in the Bunker
It is really good to find a book that can show these important moments of the Third Reich as told by the Soldiers and Generals.
Hoo-Roo
First time for me on this board, I have been reading here alot latley and thought I might as well join as I have always been interested in this period. My favourite book about the Berlin Battle is The Fall of Berlin - Anthony Read and David Fisher.
I have read it many times and always enjoy pulling this book out and starting again.
Similar subject would have to be The BerlinBunker- James P. O'Donnell.
Although not really about the street fighting but shows a well investigated look into the last days in the Bunker
It is really good to find a book that can show these important moments of the Third Reich as told by the Soldiers and Generals.
Hoo-Roo
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Ken Jasper
- In memoriam
- Posts: 699
- Joined: 03 Apr 2002, 23:56
- Location: Virginia
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pdhinkle36ID
- Member
- Posts: 83
- Joined: 19 Mar 2002, 01:58
- Location: USA
BATTLE OF BERLIN
My primary interest is HITLER and The Bunker. I have read more than 10 books on this subject. Some mentioned here.
Ref: The bunkers,last days of Hitler by James P. O,Donnell
The life and death of Adolph Htiler by Robert Payne
The death of Adolph Hitler by Lev Bezymenski (russian acount)
I have no recommendations on any books, I read for content. These books make some reference to the living conditions in the city and the bunker at that time. April 1945.
Ref: The bunkers,last days of Hitler by James P. O,Donnell
The life and death of Adolph Htiler by Robert Payne
The death of Adolph Hitler by Lev Bezymenski (russian acount)
I have no recommendations on any books, I read for content. These books make some reference to the living conditions in the city and the bunker at that time. April 1945.