Forgotten Soldier - a good read, but a true one?

[Larso]

There are many threads on Sajer. It seems though that the records you seek failed to survive the war. This is one of the things that fuels the dispute as to whether he was really there....

[Mehar]

Hello,

I recently came across what some people claim are images of Guy Sajer from the war, has anyone ever seen these before?

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=1 ... 9&view=all

The war time ones are:

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=1 ... 1406481498

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=1 ... 3222053889

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=1 ... 3222053889

And the two recent ones for comparison,

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=1 ... 3222053889

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=1 ... 3222053889

I couldn't find any references to these particular images using the search feature, there may have been one thread but it was linking to a dead site. The POW picture resembles the one taken in the 80s to a certain extent, although it seems they've gotten his age wrong in the description.

[B Hellqvist]

The sketch was made for the Swedish edition of "The Forgotten Soldier", while the wartime photos have appeared in discussions re: Sajer's wartime record. I believe Doug Nash is the source of those photos, which he got from Sajer himself.

[Mehar]

Thanks for the reply, I've seen a few fake images floating around, it's good to have a reference to fall back to. I take it the man on the cover of the US book is not Sajer then?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e ... oldier.jpg

[B Hellqvist]

Nope, that's not him, just as the British Cassell paperback sports a photo of another soldier.

[Mehar]

Thank you very much for clearing that up!

[Rob - wssob2]

I believe he was there & served with the Grossdeutschland division. I think a lot of the controversy over his memoirs is due to a) the fact that he was pretty disillusioned (and probably suffering from PSTD) due to his wartime service in the Heer, and thus his memoirs lack enough "sturm und drang" romanticism for many armchair historians interested in WWII Germany and b) there are a couple of picayune errors in the account (the most famous being his mention of the division's armband on the wrong sleeve) which lead some to question the veracity of the entire book.

[Ypenburg]

This armchair historian thinks he should have asked for a copy of his personal-file at WaSt and post it somewhere. Everybody can then see his militairy carreer was real, etc.

Untell that happens he is just like so many "self-made holocaust-survivors": a good writer with lots of fantasy and a nice bank-account. :roll:

[Rob - wssob2]

This armchair historian thinks he should have asked for a copy of his personal-file at WaSt and post it somewhere. Everybody can then see his militairy carreer was real, etc.

I'll respond to that with the words of esteemed military historian and (former?) AHF member Doug Nash:

"...To date no existing service record for Guy Sajer that substantiates his service in the Grossdeutschland Division has been found but that is not unusual. Hundreds of thousands of Wehrmacht soldiers' personnel files perhaps millions were destroyed either during or after the war. Only incomplete personnel rosters exist from the Grossdeutschland Division. Trying to track down the identity of one man in an organization that with its offshoots had over 100 000 men pass through its ranks from 1939 to 1945 is a nearly impossible task.29 But one doesn't need this kind of proof to reach a conclusion about Sajer's identity. Both his personal testimony and the overwhelming amount of circumstantial evidence point to the inescapable conclusion that his book is genuine."

(http://members.shaw.ca/grossdeutschland/sajer.htm)

Untell that happens he is just like so many "self-made holocaust-survivors": a good writer with lots of fantasy and a nice bank-account.

Your comment is obnoxious and an insult to both veterans and holocaust autobiographers.

[Ypenburg]

Your comment is obnoxious and an insult to both veterans and holocaust autobiographers.

Unless I'm mistaken you're pretty much aware as many here are that we have had severall autobiographers who became famous for their stories....that turned out to be fantasies. If you call that obnoxious and an insult to both veterans and holocaust autobiographers your completely right.

I'll respond to that with the words of esteemed military historian and (former?) AHF member Doug Nash {/quote]
Nice quote, even better then your " thus his memoirs lack enough "sturm und drang" romanticism for many armchair historians interested in WWII Germany". However did he ask the Deutsche Dienststelle (WASt) ? If so, what did they reply ? According to WASt:

The following information and certificates are issued:
...........
•Confirmation of Military Service
•Providing certificates required by the Social Security Services, Pension office, Veteran Administration etc.
•Verification of:
Time spend as a P.o.W
Decorations and Honour Awards
Nationality

Not to mention he clames (using the link you provided) "Speater was evidently moved enough to completely reexamine his earlier position" and "Spaeter wrote about his new-found admiration for Guy Sajer and planned to reread his own German copy of the book,............. in order to examine it from a more unbiased point of view."
But he doesn't mention what happens then.

Lucky us Kennedy does so: "My friend, the author and former Grossdeutschland officer, Helmuth Spaeter, has not abandoned his position despite what Nash implies."

Cheers

[Rob - wssob2]

Unless I'm mistaken you're pretty much aware as many here are that we have had severall autobiographers who became famous for their stories....that turned out to be fantasies.

Anne Frank''s diary was claimed to be fake when it first came out. That accusation periodically resurfaces. It's all part and parcel of Holocaust denial.

I often wonder why Guy Sajer gets raked over the coals and authors like Hans Schmidt (SS-Panzergrenadier), with their outrageous (the Nazis first invented the atom bomb) and Revisionist (there was no antisemitism in the Hitler Youth) points pass by completely without scrutiny. I suppose it's because authors like Schmidt don't have to prove their service because their accounts are sufficiency "Blond-Man-Riding-Panzer" heroic strum and drang to satisfy the romantic projections of their fan base.

Here's an interesting article from Dr. Stephen G. Fritz, Professor of History, East Tennessee State University & author of Frontsoldaten from http://www.custermen.net/sajer/sajer5.htm:

"...I found the recent article in Army History by Douglas E. Nash,"The Forgotten Soldier: Unmasked," to be of interest, but I would especially like to comment on the reply by Edwin L. Kennedy, Jr. As a professional historian myself, I have noticed that in recent years something of a cottage industry in debunking Guy Sajer seems to have sprung up, an enterprise to which its adherents bring considerable energy in criticizing Sajer for errors in technical details although they remain remarkably silent about the veracity of the larger issue of the combat soldier's existence. One might easily dismiss these errors as being of largely irrelevant and trivial detail, or as natural mistakes made by a man who was not yet out of his teens when the events he chronicled occurred, or as simple confusion occasioned by the myriad changes that the Grossdeutschland Division underwent in the last few years of the war.

What I find of interest, however, is the nature of Lt. Col. Kennedy's reply, and here I am thinking not so much of its flippant and dismissive tone, but of the substance of his continued criticism of Sajer and Nash. Kennedy appears to be arguing that although he now admits that Sajer is an actual person, and moreover one who indeed participated in the events he described the numerous errors in his account render his not an autobiography but a roman à clef.

This might well be true from the perspective of a military history of the traditional type, which sought to describe the elements of strategy, tactics, logistics, and military maneuver. As Sajer himself emphasized in a letter quoted by Lt. Col Nash, historians have asked me "questions of chronology, situations, dates, and unimportant details." Historians have harassed me for a long time. All of us is unimportant. I never had the intention to write a historical reference book; rather, I wrote about my innermost emotional experiences as they relate to the events that happened to me.

This, it seems to me, is the key to the controversy. Kennedy is criticizing Sajer, not necessarily for the work he wrote, but for the work he didn't write. This is what leaves such an odd impression about his reply, it is as if he were criticizing a chef for making errors in a recipe, when the chef is writing about the inner transformational experience of the process of cooking. Incidentally, this likely also accounts for why Sajer did not reply to Kennedy's inquiries, which he otherwise finds so suspicious. Moreover, Kennedy himself acknowledges that there are things that are correct in The Forgotten Soldier. especially those dealing with "the human dimension of war." Isn't that precisely what Sajer tried to convey? As Kennedy also admitted, Sajer's book expressed "powerful evocations of [his] experiences in the cauldron of combat."

Are reflective works about the inner experience of war-a book like Glenn Gray's The Warriors comes to mind to be deemed valueless as history because they might contain errors of detail concerning military minutiae? Or should the magnificent writings of Primo Levi on be nature of the concentration experience be rendered invalid because of mistakes in details of how the camp system was actually operated? What does Kennedy think about the value as historical artifacts of contemporary documents such as diaries or letters of soldiers, both of which provide insight into the human aspect of war but often contain factual errors concerning military details? No, Sajer certainly did not write an official history of Grossdeutschland Division, but then, he never claimed to have. What he attempted to do, on the other hand, was to write an account of the innermost emotional experiences of a combat soldier, and here even Kennedy, however grudgingly, acknowledges his accomplishment.

In the absence of a service record for Guy Sajer that substantiates his service in The Grossdeutschland Division, skeptics like Kennedy are not likely to be convinced. The words of Sajer himself and the testimony of other veterans as to the veracity of his observations do, however, strengthen the case that The Forgotten Soldier is genuine, and not fiction. The larger, and to me more intriguing, question is why some people find it is so vital to prove, on the basis of a few admittedly incorrect, if relatively minor, technical details that Sajer's work is fictional, even though he got all the larger human aspects of the war correct?"

[Ypenburg]

Anne Frank''s diary was claimed to be fake when it first came out. That accusation periodically resurfaces. It's all part and parcel of Holocaust denial.

And has nothing to do with proven fake autobiographers, nor did I question Anne Frank's diary.

I often wonder why Guy Sajer gets raked over the coals and authors like Hans Schmidt (SS-Panzergrenadier), with their outrageous (the Nazis first invented the atom bomb) and Revisionist (there was no antisemitism in the Hitler Youth) points pass by completely without scrutiny.

I can't commend on Schmidt's book since I'm not into the SS. I only have 2 books at home:
- Wilhelm Tieke - Tagödie um die Treue, because it was mentioned that it had some info on 9. Fsch.Jg.Div.;
- Brenda Ralph Lewis - Hitler Youth, The Hitlerjugend in War and peace 1933-1945, since some Vet's books mention (briefly) their time in the HJ and it got me interested in how the German youth was brainwashed.

Besides that I have some Gefechtsberichten etc. concearning their part in Fall Gelb in Holland, but I can't say I'm impressed by it. Which reminds me sinds you're a "grog" I'm still looking for a Gefechtsbericht o.s.l.t. of the Leibstandarte concearning fightings with Dutch troops in the Geertruidenberg-Raamsdonksveer-Keizersveer area 13.5.1940.

I suppose it's because authors like Schmidt don't have to prove their service because their accounts are sufficiency "Blond-Man-Riding-Panzer" heroic strum and drang to satisfy the romantic projections of their fan base.

I can only reply that I'm not blond, nor do I like blonds, Panzers or the SS.

But since we're on speaking terms now, I'll be back with some more questions/remarks besides the WASt.
Let's see if we can sort this out. I'll be looking in the other topics about this subject to, so give me a little time. RL is also keeping me busy.

[bil]

I enjoyed Sajers book for what it is,a description of life as he saw it it the war.I do find it strange that folks doing research sometimes cannot for certainty seem to be able to find out where entire units were at certain times,or what equipment was issued at certain times,but then expect Sajer to explain where he was at certain times over sixty years ago,when he was a youngster.Sometimes I am uncertain where I left my keys last night,much less details of years ago. Is he the only one that gets picked apart this way?I know about Kurowski and a few others,but they are writing supposed 'scholarly' works,not a memour sort of book. ---bil

[Sturmvogel.]

Boooooooo!
well i look at this as a blessing in disguise... to be honest i dont want a movie made of this book, it would HAVE to be a series or atleast 2 movies to have a chance of doing justice to it. its too bad tho if sajer really wanted to see his experience on the screen

Sturmvogel.

ps. hehe this will give me time to go to flim school and become a top notch film director so that ===> I <=== ...can direct it

[dixieflyer]

Well, did someone else pick it up? Looks like it, and on a cheap budget too:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NrPopid ... re=related

Too bad, it deserved a larger budget, better treatment in my very humble opinion.

Warren