Phantom Alpenfestung

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Ezboard

Phantom Alpenfestung

#1

Post by Ezboard » 29 Sep 2002, 17:00

Marcus Wendel
ezOP
Posts: 571
(10/5/00 12:07:08 pm)
Reply Phantom Alpenfestung
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Has anyone of you read "Phantom Alpenfestung? Die geheimen Baupläne der Organisation Todt" by Franz W. Seidler?

It sounds very interesting and I am interested in any comments on it.

/Marcus


pdhinkle
Member
Posts: 130
(1/19/01 1:56:09 am)
Reply Re: Phantom Alpenfestung/National redoubt?
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Since I can not read German, I want to ask is it the same as the National redoubt that the Allies referred to during the advance into germany in april, 1945.

Knowing that the Allies pulled a fast one with the Calais invasion, would the Germans come back with one like this?

Geoff Walden
Visitor
(1/19/01 9:34:17 am)
Reply Phantom Alpenfestung
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Marcus,

Yes, it's a great book. I bought it at the Hotel Zum Tuerken on the Obersalzberg, last year.

The author discovered plans and maps from the Organization Todt, for a real Alpenfestung. And yes, this is the same as the National Redoubt that many of the Allies feared, but was more hype than real.

However, the author shows that, given 6 months or a year more, this Alpenfestung would surely have been a reality. There were plans for tunnel installations, including FHQs and HQs for all the armed forces, all over the place in the Berchtesgaden/Salzburg areas (and elsewhere). Many of these were started, but got little beyond the initial excavation phase (just the opening-up).

For example, there was a big FHQ planned in the flank of the Watzmann Mt., at the side of the Koenigsee. This was to be a pretty big site, and there was another huge site over in Austria.

The book also has plans of several air raid shelters under downtown Berchtesgaden itself, and other places in the area.

I don't recall off the top of my head what the book cost - something like DM35. It was worth it.

Geoff

pdhinkle
Member
Posts: 131
(1/19/01 2:03:20 pm)
Reply Phantom Alpenfestung/National redoubt?
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Now, would all of this digging have given rise to the stories about the buried gold in the Alps!
Having visited the US recreation areas in the same area, I am aware of the tunnels under many of the building sites. I have a plan sheet of the tunnels connecting the Hotel Walker to the Goering home. There were stories of more tunnels connecting other places.

Edited by: pdhinkle at: 1/20/01 12:20:16 am

Sanjay
Visitor
(1/19/01 4:18:54 pm)
Reply true to extent but made big by soviets.
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Hello Marcus,
The so called underground installations by nazi were to extent correct ,but to slowdown advance of western allies a large ScareCrow was made of it by stalins intelligance,to slowdown advance of western allies towards berlin,at that time the british govt of india had strict policy of monitoring all radio transmissions of all allies(listening to radio broadcasts of axis powers was forbiden)and suddendly around time the soviet army was nearing german border a few radio stations such as ,free world,brotherhood universe and radio thruth were heared by indian listeners and many of them even broadcasted in indian languages.most content of radio broadcasts were fiercly anti german,but most they mentioned about organisation mentioned by you or any such organisations they also claimed that huge underground structures were made in germany and new miracale weapons were made there,airports,and all command structure was also shifted underground,all facilities were self sufficient in food and water and huge stock of them was made in such facilities,also all ss mens were going in such underground structure and they had taken oath to fight upto last man to defend hitlers ideals.they predicated bloody fight ,also it was mentioned that many were existence in western part of germany and austria.
on getting about information about such broadcasts the british authorties got worried and a large intelligence operation was launched to find the source of transmissions(my grandfather was employed in british intelligence of then india)after large monitoring a few transmitters were found working secretly in some forest area of india and some in then neihbouring countries of india such as afganistan.all operatives of radio stations located in india were secretly arrested and interogated on interogation they told that they belonged to extremely stalinist communist group (not to be confused with main stream indian communist)in india and they were doing it under instructions of moscow which wanted to delay arrival of western allies in germany and stalin wanted to have maximum chunk of german territory in his control.
on receiving such breakthrough about stabbing of western allies by soviets the then intelligence agency of british india informed it quickly to british intelligence(mi5 or mi6)but unluckly the information processor in it was no other than member of soviet implants in british intelligence led by kim philby and his cambrige associates,they had seen that this information never reached british military and political leadership,also moscow was informed about discovery by indian intelligence,and many operatives in india died mysterriously.
as such rumours kept comming in eisenhower had diverted his large force to search for such underground establishment,delaying arrival of western allies in berlin ,thus stalin achived his goal to large extent.
had there been no moles in then british intelligence,well berlin would had been in hands of britishamerican combine rather than soviets changing course of history.
yes underground establishments were there but there scarecrow was made by soviet intelligence and propoganda and they achieved there goal to large extent.

Marcus Wendel
Webmaster
Posts: 948
(1/19/01 8:34:31 pm)
Reply Re: Phantom Alpenfestung
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Geoff,

Thanks for your comments about the book.

/Marcus

pdhinkle
Member
Posts: 136
(1/20/01 2:26:17 pm)
Reply Re: Phantom Alpenfestung/National redoubt?
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Along with this Festung was supposed to be another, Thuringia Wald! It was shown on the Allied maps in National Geographics after the war on a map of Germany.

While it was to be battle groups operating like the Huertgen wald groups in Nov.1944 It did not turn out that way.

Geoff Walden
Visitor
(1/22/01 10:09:18 am)
Reply "Thuringer Festung"
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Not to invent a name :), but that's exactly right - there were also plans for a last-ditch Festung in Thuringen. These plans didn't get as far as those in the Alpine areas, but given several months or a year, Thuringen would also have been honeycombed with underground installations.

As Sanjay said, the Russians did hype this up, but it was not a fantasy ... these plans and installations were real ... underground factories, airports, headquarters, all completely self-sufficient. Fortunately, the war ended before most of these were in any condition to go into operation, but if the war had gone on, almost all the critical German industry and command/control centers would have been in underground bomb-proof facilities ... facilties made by slave laborers from concentration camps.

As it was, by 1945, Thuringen already had a massive underground installation making V-1s, V-2s, and jet engines (Mittelwerk/Mittelbau/Dora site, near Nordhausen). Another underground site near Jena made Me-262 jets. Work had started on what was apparently a secret underground FuehrerHQs and command/control center in the Jonas Valley, near Erfurt.

Another underground site east of Salzburg had a functioning petroleum refinery. Underground installations in the Berchtesgaden area were equipped with enough supplies to last several months, if not years. These underground facilties were certainly no myth, but the war ended before most of them amounted to much.

Geoff

pdhinkle
Member
Posts: 140
(1/22/01 1:09:09 pm)
Reply Underground Installations!
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Ideas change from side to side, sooner or later. In less than a decade,because of the cold war the US started building underground installations! First alternate command centers. Believing they were Bomb proof! Good chance they were, but there are other ways to equalize your enemy! Thus the underground fighters!

The best laid plans of mice and men...

Sanjay
Visitor
(1/23/01 12:54:36 pm)
Reply would it be possible.?
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Hello Geoff
i agree with your reason on therotical ground but it would not had altered course of war,and certainly to build such massive structures requires many resources
but except for Slave labour from ss concentration camps all other such as cement,steel,was in short supply due to allied bombing of german industries and plants moreover allied bombing of german railways and transportation system had reduced capacity bring such material from other parts of nazi occupied europe.
moreover to make such underground structures it would had required massive excavation of earth and related earth work which could had been easily sighted by allied reconassance planes and and no doudt allied high command would bombed such structures and abrupted them in way.
also carrying out such work in increasingly choatic condition in germany would had nothing than a miracle.
so my grandfather always said that it was a soviet generated myth supported by traitors within british intelligence establishment.

Sanjay
Visitor
(1/23/01 1:17:09 pm)
Reply had it been possible?
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Hello Geoff,

I would agree with your point of view from therotical point of view,but for such underground structures to be erected many hurdles were there which would had been nearly impossible to overcome.
Due to constant bombing of german indutries and related sites by western allies there was general shortage of industrial material,such as cement,steel for example even to bring it from location where bombings were not done in parts of nazi occupied europe was not possible due to havoc caused on german transport system by allied air raids.
moreover construction activity of such kind would had required large scale digging and related other earthwork which would not had escaped allied reconassance planes,which would had prompted massive allied bombings of such works which would had destroyed it even before actual construction had completed.
so even if slave labour force of ss concentration camps would had been resouce for such venture other problems made it highly impossible
so it can be safely concluded that it was a soviet hype and scarecrow aided by wreckers within british intelligence establishment led by philby & co.

Geoff Walden
Visitor
(1/24/01 9:37:43 am)
Reply But it happened
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It's true, Sanjay, all of those problems were there, but they were being overcome, right up to the end of the war. In the final 8 months or so of the war, there was an absolutely amazing amount of this work accomplished. Parts of Germany and Austria today are literally honeycombed with these underground installations. Work only stopped at most of them when Allied soldiers overran the areas (in some unfinished tunnels, even today, boring rods are still in place in the holes and even blasting powder in some, left just as the work stopped when the sites were captured).

Would they have run out of slave laborers, concrete, steel, etc. in 6 more months? There isn't much indication of that, based on the final months of the war. Yes, it was easy for Allied air recon to pick these sites out. Some were bombed, others were not. Those that were bombed, didn't do much at all to the industrial capacity of the sites, but tended instead to kill the concentration camp inmates who were housed outside. In fact, allied bombing really did not have that severe an effect on German industry at all. Yes, it was hurt, but it was not crippled. As many times as the ball bearing plants in Schweinfurt were pummelled, the supply of bearings kept right up there, right until Schweinfurt was overrun. The precision bombing of the 8th Air Force just was not precise enough to cripple specific war industries or sites.

Would completion of these underground installations have prolonged the war? I don't know, that's something for the "what if" forum.

Geoff

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