Book Review: Tigers in the Mud

Discussions on books and other reference material on the WW1, Inter-War or WW2 as well as the authors. Hosted by Andy H.
Andreas
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#16

Post by Andreas » 18 Jan 2006, 22:32

Andreas Leandoer wrote:Epamimondas,

Carius was asked by Himmler to join the Waffen SS instead of the army, not to join the party. I assume that he was a member as he doesn´t say that he wasn´t in the book!!
I do not think that is a particularly good basis for the assumption. If you want to accuse someone of NSDAP membership, I would like to see more solid grounds than that someone not saying that he was not in his combat memoirs.

All the best

Andreas

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B Hellqvist
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#17

Post by B Hellqvist » 18 Jan 2006, 22:33

Andreas Leandoer wrote:Epamimondas,

Carius was asked by Himmler to join the Waffen SS instead of the army, not to join the party. I assume that he was a member as he doesn´t say that he wasn´t in the book!!
Guilty until proven otherwise, huh? So you "assume" he was a party member... He turned 23 right after the war ended, thus being eligible for Party membership for a couple of years. How many joined NSDAP in the last two years of the war?

Carius' book was first and foremost intended for the veterans of the s.Pz.Abt. 502, and thus not an overview of the war in the East. That soldiers in the frontline live in a microcosm, literally not knowing what goes on on the other side of the hill, isn't unknown among readers of memoirs. One of the few who've put his experiences in a greater context is Gottlob Biedermann in his "In Deadly Combat". Franklin Gurley wrote in "Into the Mountains Dark" that until he reached the frontline, he knew most of what was going on in the war, but once at the front, his horizon didn't stretch much further than the next foxhole.

If there's anything Carius can be accused of, it's a certain amount of arrogance. His attitude towards the Americans was influenced by his years on the Eastern Front; he regarded the Soviets to be more brave, "real" soldiers than the Yanks. As for the subject of self-criticism, I have yet to read a memoir by any veteran that takes an objective look at himself. When memoirs, especially those by Germans (and Austrians), are put in a post-WW2 context, it is obvious that the authors feel a need to justify themselves. As combat veterans, they feel that they have nothing to be ashamed of personally, and that all the bad stuff can be blamed on the "golden pheasants", rear-area security units, the SS, etc. Ultimately, it is probably a matter of not wanting to regard the sacrifice by them and their comrades as being a waste of life, and that is a feeling that I can understand. Read the memoirs for what they are, and be damn happy you didn't have to endure what they experienced.


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Andreas Leandoer
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#18

Post by Andreas Leandoer » 18 Jan 2006, 22:57

OK, here goes.

More or less by by automatic, you turned member in the party by the age of 18 in Germany, you could choose to not become a member but then most of the career options disapeared, officer was non-thinkable, education gone etc etc. That is why by the war started nearly 25-30% of the population were members. Not active ones, but registred. If by 15 you didn´t enter the Hitlerjugend, you could forget higher education or officer candidate courses. After that you had to be active to leave the party before the war ended. No need to spell it out do I?, if you tried to leave the party, it had a bed effect on your career... So assumption, yes but all facts point toward it.

B Hellqvist, It is obvious that most memoirs are biased, I haven´t said anything else, but that is the main reason why the qualitive stuff have editors, have introductions made by 3rd parties etc etc. And that would give certain books the critical view they need. As JonS said.

And I do read them for what they are, remember how the discussion started?? I presented my view of the book, not many people here could accept that.

Andreas

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Der Weisse Wolf
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#19

Post by Der Weisse Wolf » 18 Jan 2006, 22:58

JonS wrote: Wolf, the way I read Andreas' critique is Carius wasn't self-critical in terms of the way he conducted his own battles.
May be I misunderstood then. There has been some time since I read Tigers in the Mud, but I agree somewhat about your example of Kurt Meyers Grenadiere, which I recently read. Indeed Meyer gives an imperssion that no matter in what situation, they were always desperately fighting superior forces. He also does not(at leaast not very often) mention that why he was successful was mostly because of luck. But I don't have problem with this, because his luck was evident from his battle discriptions anyway. I just felt a little sorry for his drivers, since he lost them all the time because of his recklessness. However, his Aufklärungs-Abt. was alone in many cases and he probably had to be a daredevil, so I cannot blame him. Is he overhyped or something like that, I don't know.

As for present day feelings, I do recognize some "fanboy phenomenon" towards German ww2 troops, but it's the kind of "teenage rebellion" resulting mostly from universal German bashing that has been goíng on too long. Apologist and neonazi historians are likely thrilled with it and historians with anti-nazi, anti-German or objective(if there is one) agenda understandbly don't like it at all, but I doubt they can stop it either.

edit: With a clever diversion I camouflage my offtopic message as ontopic by giving "Tigers in the Mud" 4 stars out of 5 + I promise to read it again in a few days to tell if my opinions have changed.

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#20

Post by George Lerner » 19 Jan 2006, 01:23

I've read it, although not well written it is funny and he does state what his actions and such and make some good contrasts. Also he illistrautes the life style of a panzer-man in the eastern front

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Daniel L
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#21

Post by Daniel L » 19 Jan 2006, 02:07

Andreas Leandoer wrote:More or less by by automatic, you turned member in the party by the age of 18 in Germany, you could choose to not become a member but then most of the career options disapeared, officer was non-thinkable, education gone etc etc. That is why by the war started nearly 25-30% of the population were members. Not active ones, but registred. If by 15 you didn´t enter the Hitlerjugend, you could forget higher education or officer candidate courses. After that you had to be active to leave the party before the war ended. No need to spell it out do I?, if you tried to leave the party, it had a bed effect on your career... So assumption, yes but all facts point toward it.
Out of curiousity, what is your source for this?

Best regards/ Daniel

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Tom Houlihan
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#22

Post by Tom Houlihan » 19 Jan 2006, 07:43

I don't understand all the fuss. A man went to war. He did well. More importantly, he survived. He wrote a book about his combat experiences, not about the socio-political phenomenon surrounding the instigation of the war. Read it for what it is, not what you think it ought to be. It's a damned good book, IMHO!

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Third Parties

#23

Post by Glenn2438 » 19 Jan 2006, 07:47

but that is the main reason why the qualitive stuff have editors, have introductions made by 3rd parties etc etc.
Well call me old-fashioned, but I for one can do without the third party editors and introductions to which Andreas refers.

Regards
Glenn

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Andreas Leandoer
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#24

Post by Andreas Leandoer » 19 Jan 2006, 08:20

Inside Nazi Germany, Detlev Peukert Pelican Books 1989

Dictionary of the third reich, James Taylor, Warren Shaw, Grafton books 1987

Arms, Autarky and agression 1933 - 39, William Carr Arnold 1973

To name a few.

Andreas Leandoer

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