Books By David Irving?

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Andreas
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#46

Post by Andreas » 28 May 2007, 11:03

Zebedee wrote: JeroenPollentier - I personally would look for another source and translator. Irving has a past record for 'misreading' key passages when translating them. As such, I'd feel very unsure about whether to take what he writes as being actually what he read.
I can only reaffirm that. I just translated a bit of text from my grandfather, and doing that brings out very clearly how many possibilities one has with a text when translating it. Given this, and the findings of the trial, I'd give anything translated by Irving a very wide berth.

All the best

Andreas

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Zebedee
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#47

Post by Zebedee » 29 May 2007, 10:30

Andreas wrote:Has anyone got info on the reaction by Keegan to Evans' findings?

All the best

Andreas
Hi Andreas,

I only have the reaction cited by Evans in 'Telling Lies About Hitler' plus recollections of the media furore in the UK press after the trial.

Keegan seems to have misunderstood the whole purpose of the libel trial as being an attack on Irving's freedom of speech rather than what it was in reality (ie an attack upon Lipstadt by Irving himself). Keegan's later statements (and a published editorial on the trial) seem to tally with this and indicate that Keegan has yet to assimilate just how thoroughly Irving's reputation was destroyed by Evans' forensic analysis. One key phrase I recollect Keegan using was that the holocaust denial was "a small but disabling element in [Irving's] work".(edit:this phrase was used in Keegan's editorial on the trial in the Daily Telegraph).

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/htmlContent. ... rv512.html


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#48

Post by Andreas » 29 May 2007, 11:20

Thanks a lot!

All the best

Andreas

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Engländer
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Re: Books By David Irving?

#49

Post by Engländer » 16 Mar 2009, 01:58

I think the world needs authors like Mr Irving. We are told what to believe by Governments, and by 'acceptable' authors, who 'toe the line'.

It's important to be made aware of the possibility that there are truths in Mr Irvings findings.

I am currently reading his book, Churchills War, Volume 1, and I find it absolutely fascinating. The man has spent thousands of hours researching archives all around the world to bring attention to an alternative point of view as opposed to the same old re-written books we find at the high street shops.

Too many questions left unanswered, too many points raised make sense, and I think for those of us who find history, indeed those years surrounding the last world war, fascinating, then his books need to be read.

Could the war in the west really have come to a peaceful conclusion in 1940? Too many archived FACTS point to the conclusion that this may well have been the case, very interesting.

For me anyway, he's a breath of fresh air.

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Re: Books By David Irving?

#50

Post by Qvist » 16 Mar 2009, 10:19

I think the world needs authors like Mr Irving. We are told what to believe by Governments, and by 'acceptable' authors, who 'toe the line'.
That is in my opinion to imbue Irving with a romantic quality that lacks any real foundation in reality, and on the basis of a rather sad conspiracy theory to boot. The reason why there is a strong consensus among historians around largely other positions than those which Mr. Irving hold isn't that they "toe the line".

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Books By David Irving?

#51

Post by Kim Sung » 16 Mar 2009, 11:01

Engländer wrote:I think the world needs authors like Mr Irving. We are told what to believe by Governments, and by 'acceptable' authors, who 'toe the line'.
In my view, David Irving is just one of the many historians who manipulates the facts and leads the focus of historical debates into one direction. My impression is that only he is harshly criticized because he touches the issue of the Holocaust which is very well-publicized, and political and economic power of its victim group is strong in the western world. He could not have gotten such a heated media coverage and would not been attacked so harshly as he has been if he had touched, in the same way, other historical issues like Japanese war crimes, Soviet war crimes, the Armenian Genocide or annihilation of indigenous societies by western imperialist powers. There are many David Irving-style historians who deny Japanese war crimes(for example, Higashinakano Shudo and Hata Ikuhiko), Soviet war crimes, and other war crimes. It seems that only David Irving is in the center of media attention and a target of constant character assassination.

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Peter H
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Re: Books By David Irving?

#52

Post by Peter H » 16 Mar 2009, 13:15

Now he's selling Hitler's bones & hair :oops: :roll:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 0&t=150866

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Re: Books By David Irving?

#53

Post by Zebedee » 20 Mar 2009, 06:03

Engländer wrote:I think the world needs authors like Mr Irving. We are told what to believe by Governments, and by 'acceptable' authors, who 'toe the line'.
Irving has consistently misquoted, twisted and been either incompetent (his defence) or deceitful (the finding of a British judge) in his marshalling of primary sources. That is not to say everything he has ever written is without merit. His access to Nazi party figures such as Milch has resulted in some unique work. However, if one cannot trust him when he is quoting from Goebbels' diary to quote correctly, then how can one trust him over anything contentious or groundbreaking?

His role in provoking other historians into writing insightful works (eg Richard Evans' trilogy on the Third Reich) is a side benefit of a career which is too tarnished now to be sustained in any other way than by pandering to an increasingly niche market of conspiracy theorists, anti-semites and far right groups.

I have the feeling we are going to disagree but Irving is no more a pioneering, somewhat erratic but valid historian than Speer was merely Hitler's architect. His books generally add little, reveal less and have to be double checked down to the last detail before one can cite him with any confidence. Taking a position merely to be 'contentious' has little merit when the foundations for any argument are so flimsy. Passing it off as an accurate portrayal of history has led Irving to bankruptcy both financially and intellectually.

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Engländer
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Re: Books By David Irving?

#54

Post by Engländer » 20 Mar 2009, 08:52

I think it's easy to point fingers and say hold on a minute, he was found to either have exagerated or lied on this or that, and thats fair enough, but by the same token, we should also be saying the same about many legitmate and established authors, but especially the politicians.

What I like about Irving is he has made me question particular things....where-as for many, many years I unquestionably accepted that Churchill was a man of endurance and good British character...I always knew however that he was not a saint, but some of the things which he did as a politician beggars belief. Using documented evidence to prove that Churchill was falsifying the front-line strength of the Luftwaffe as an example in 1935, was purely ill informed and pure scaremongering, even though the British were invited to see for themselves, in fact, the German air minister went to London with files containing the exact quota of german aircraft, and was willing to do so in good faith. MI5 and the British air intelligence arm had been monitoring German communications and could confirm these figures, but Churchill would have none of it.

My point is, for many years, I just accepted that Germany provoked, started and were to blame for the war. I now believe otherwise. It is without argument that Hitler wanted to occupy lands to his east, he stated as much in Mein Kamf, which I have read, but in my mind it IS questionable as to whether he ever intended war with the west. Lets not forget also that in many peoples eyes, his claims to those lands which were rightly Germanic and probably in all fairness correct for him to do so, to claim back, was in no way a threat to Britain or her Empire, and that it was France and England who declared war on Germany, NOT the other way around! Churchills sole political aim during the 30's (other than championing the Emire-India debate) was for Britain to re-arm herself and intentionally provoke Germany. Why? Self political preservation? Age creeping up on him and his desire for one last wartime hurrah? Britain used by outside influence as a pawn in a world game?

Misguided by the Focus group, the British and International zioinist industriasts whose rage and contempt for the Germans treatment and persecution of the German Jews, which ultimately led Britain into world war, and cost hundreds of thousands of lives, indeed, millions, thousands of beautiful cities across europe destroyed...starvation and economic depression, Britain bankrupt and the start of the fall of the Empire....

In my mind, whilst Irving could be accused of certain shortfalls as an author, it needs to be remembered that much of his work is ARCHIVAL FACTS. This seems to be glossed over very quickly.

Anyway, it is always good to debate, I respect peoples views to their own opinions, all I would say is, I have read hundreds of books over the years on WW2, and presumed that what I read was fact, now I question. Which takes me back to my comment which has appeared to struck a chord witth a few people here as they seem to have quoted it! That is that the world need people like Irving, in the sense that his work makes people question, discuss and debate....that's not a bad thing, is it?

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Re: Books By David Irving?

#55

Post by Kunikov » 20 Mar 2009, 09:03

Engländer wrote: Anyway, it is always good to debate, I respect peoples views to their own opinions, all I would say is, I have read hundreds of books over the years on WW2, and presumed that what I read was fact, now I question. Which takes me back to my comment which has appeared to struck a chord witth a few people here as they seem to have quoted it! That is that the world need people like Irving, in the sense that his work makes people question, discuss and debate....that's not a bad thing, is it?

Is there a reason as to why you are now taking Irving at his word? Perhaps we'll have to wait until you have read a few more 'hundreds of books' before you can question his conclusions?

For the record: Irving lies, manipulates, and ignores facts that do not add up to his thesis/point of view. Why aren't you happy to question that aspect of his wonderful research?
"Opinions founded on prejudice are always sustained with the greatest violence." Jewish proverb
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Engländer
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Re: Books By David Irving?

#56

Post by Engländer » 20 Mar 2009, 09:33

Kunikov, are you saying that there are no truths in Irvings work?

There seems to be an element of anger in your post, and certainly sarcasm.

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Re: Books By David Irving?

#57

Post by Qvist » 20 Mar 2009, 10:07

My point is, for many years, I just accepted that Germany provoked, started and were to blame for the war. I now believe otherwise. It is without argument that Hitler wanted to occupy lands to his east, he stated as much in Mein Kamf, which I have read, but in my mind it IS questionable as to whether he ever intended war with the west.
In other words, if the Western powers had stood by and allowed him to carve out a German empire in the East based on national annihiliation and genocide, he might not have attacked them? How generous. :)
Lets not forget also that in many peoples eyes, his claims to those lands which were rightly Germanic
Come again? Poland? Ukraine? the Crimea? "Rightly germanic"?
and probably in all fairness correct for him to do so, to claim back, was in no way a threat to Britain or her Empire,
Of course it was a threat to Britain and her empire. The purpose of Lebensraum in the East wasn't the pursuit of ideological fancy, but to transform Germany into a superpower.
and that it was France and England who declared war on Germany, NOT the other way around! Churchills sole political aim during the 30's (other than championing the Emire-India debate) was for Britain to re-arm herself and intentionally provoke Germany. Why? Self political preservation? Age creeping up on him and his desire for one last wartime hurrah? Britain used by outside influence as a pawn in a world game?

Misguided by the Focus group, the British and International zioinist industriasts whose rage and contempt for the Germans treatment and persecution of the German Jews, which ultimately led Britain into world war, and cost hundreds of thousands of lives, indeed, millions, thousands of beautiful cities across europe destroyed...starvation and economic depression, Britain bankrupt and the start of the fall of the Empire....

In my mind, whilst Irving could be accused of certain shortfalls as an author, it needs to be remembered that much of his work is ARCHIVAL FACTS. This seems to be glossed over very quickly.

Anyway, it is always good to debate, I respect peoples views to their own opinions, all I would say is, I have read hundreds of books over the years on WW2, and presumed that what I read was fact, now I question. Which takes me back to my comment which has appeared to struck a chord witth a few people here as they seem to have quoted it! That is that the world need people like Irving, in the sense that his work makes people question, discuss and debate....that's not a bad thing, is it?
Oh for heaven's sake, get a grip man. "British and International zioinist industriasts whose rage and contempt for the Germans" - don't you even recognise propaganda when you see it? Stop wasting our time with this crap.

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Re: Books By David Irving?

#58

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 20 Mar 2009, 11:20

For the record: Irving lies, manipulates, and ignores facts that do not add up to his thesis/point of view.
Unfortunatly not only Irving did so, most other "authors" and (for myself to many) "historians" do that either :roll:

Jan-Hendrik

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Re: Books By David Irving?

#59

Post by Engländer » 20 Mar 2009, 14:17

My, we really have upset some people haven't we.

Let me re-iterate, that I believe, that it is important to allow differing opinons. They might not always fit in with the 'acceptable' viewpoint, and they may cause controversy, however if you deny that right to freely express an opinion, to openly attempt a fair and open minded discussion on events, to stubbornly resist any possibility that the alternative COULD be the truth, then is it me that has the problem? I dopn't think so.

Remember what I said, that questioning historic events should be a good thing.

Please feel free to not reply if you feel this is a 'waste of your time'. :P LOL

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Re: Books By David Irving?

#60

Post by Engländer » 20 Mar 2009, 14:39

Back to the original question in this thread, "How are books by David Irving'.

The Destruction of Dresden is, in my opinion, his best work.

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