First atomic bomb was German !?!

Discussions on the equipment used by the Axis forces, apart from the things covered in the other sections. Hosted by Juha Tompuri
sandeepmukherjee196
Financial supporter
Posts: 1390
Joined: 07 Aug 2014 05:34

Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Postby sandeepmukherjee196 » 21 May 2016 04:07

williamjpellas wrote:To my knowledge, sandeep is correct when it comes to the state of the art, so to speak, of German nerve gas. It was far more deadly than any comparable US or other Allied gas weapon---so far as is known or has surfaced in the public realm to date. However: wm is absolutely correct to point to vastly superior Allied logistics and control of the air as certain to be decisive in the event of a gas weapon - WMD exchange in the latter days of WWII. And the Allies had an ace up their sleeve. Even as the Germans had superior gas agents, the British had superior biological weapons. Their stockpile of anthrax was as fearsome and deadly a Doomsday weapon as any of the warring powers had or thought to possess. In short, had Germany even thought about attacking the Allies with nerve gas, the British would have seeded the entire German nation with anthrax within a week. This would have meant genocide of the German people for all intents and purposes. In my opinion, this deterrent is also the most likely explanation for why the alleged-to-exist German nuclear weapons (in whatever form) were not used---at least not against the Western Allies. There is of course the matter of various documents attesting to their existence and purported use against the USSR on the eastern front.


Hi William..

The British anthrax angle certainly gives food for thought. I am largely in the dark till now on this issue.

However on the issue of "German nuclear weapons (in whatever form)" I find the existence of atomic weapons in whatever form in the German arsenal strictly an imaginary proposition.

To my knowledge there is absolutely no question of any operationalised german nuclear weapon in WW II. So the purported use of such weapons on the eastern front is impossible.

Ciao
Sanders

User avatar
williamjpellas
Member
Posts: 250
Joined: 28 Sep 2002 18:17
Location: Louisville, KY, USA

Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Postby williamjpellas » 21 May 2016 20:54

Sandeep, here is a BBC article that gives a general overview of the British anthrax capability in WWII:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/1457035.stm

As for "no question of any operationalised German nuclear weapon in WW II", there is some documentary evidence to the contrary. The most notable, though by no means the only, pieces of that puzzle are: the MAGIC intercept (posted earlier in this thread and which I have seen in person at the US National Archives) of a Japanese attache officer transmitting from Stockholm, Sweden, in which he alleges German nuclear attacks against the Russians, several stories, in both magazine and book form, by the Italian journalist Luigi Romersma in which he claimed to have witnessed some kind of German nuclear weapon test detonation at or near Rugen Island in 1944, the "Zinsser Affidavit", which is the sworn testimony of Luftwaffe pilot Hans Zinsser, who claimed to have witnessed the Rugen Island test while flying an He-111 in the vicinity, said affidavit as found in a formerly Top Secret US Naval Intelligence report on "the development of the German atomic bomb" (now declassified), and of course the work of Rainer Karlsch and related documents and concepts such as the Schumann-Trinks bomb schematic (which now resides in the German Army museum), the "bazooka effect"---an alleged alternate method of detonating some types of nuclear weapons---and so on. There is also a fair amount of more speculative information in various corners of the internet, some of it obviously kook-conspiracy-fringe-half-baked baloney, but some of it worthy of further investigation. And so on.

sandeepmukherjee196
Financial supporter
Posts: 1390
Joined: 07 Aug 2014 05:34

Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Postby sandeepmukherjee196 » 22 May 2016 09:41

williamjpellas wrote:Sandeep, here is a BBC article that gives a general overview of the British anthrax capability in WWII:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/1457035.stm

As for "no question of any operationalised German nuclear weapon in WW II", there is some documentary evidence to the contrary. The most notable, though by no means the only, pieces of that puzzle are: the MAGIC intercept (posted earlier in this thread and which I have seen in person at the US National Archives) of a Japanese attache officer transmitting from Stockholm, Sweden, in which he alleges German nuclear attacks against the Russians, several stories, in both magazine and book form, by the Italian journalist Luigi Romersma in which he claimed to have witnessed some kind of German nuclear weapon test detonation at or near Rugen Island in 1944, the "Zinsser Affidavit", which is the sworn testimony of Luftwaffe pilot Hans Zinsser, who claimed to have witnessed the Rugen Island test while flying an He-111 in the vicinity, said affidavit as found in a formerly Top Secret US Naval Intelligence report on "the development of the German atomic bomb" (now declassified), and of course the work of Rainer Karlsch and related documents and concepts such as the Schumann-Trinks bomb schematic (which now resides in the German Army museum), the "bazooka effect"---an alleged alternate method of detonating some types of nuclear weapons---and so on. There is also a fair amount of more speculative information in various corners of the internet, some of it obviously kook-conspiracy-fringe-half-baked baloney, but some of it worthy of further investigation. And so on.



Hi William..

Does any shred of documented narrative from any USSR / Russian archive mention even a whiff of a German atomic weapon attack on the eastern front? Seeing that the Soviets were apt to pin any and every atrocity on the Germans in WW II..real or imagined..or transferance of their own misdeeds onto the Wehrmacht (Katyn massacre), it would be mighty strange if something as juicy as an actual nuclear - first - use -atrocity will be passed up !

Ciao
Sandeep

User avatar
williamjpellas
Member
Posts: 250
Joined: 28 Sep 2002 18:17
Location: Louisville, KY, USA

Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Postby williamjpellas » 23 May 2016 05:04

Sandeep, even today, there is a great deal of information about WWII in Russian / Soviet archives that has never seen the light of day in the West. In my opinion, one of the best points about Rainer Karlsch's work is that he often quotes from Soviet-era documents, including one that was "eyes only" for Stalin and just three other people. (This was the one describing the two test detonations at Ohrdurf, near the Buchenwald concentration camp complex.) As for Russian or Soviet documents describing the alleged nuclear attack(s) by the Germans on the Eastern Front, to my knowledge none have yet surfaced or been publicly acknowledged. There is an American document---the aforementioned MAGIC intercept---describing Japanese claims of such at attack, but no Russian papers as far as I have been able to determine. Not yet, anyway.


As for the Soviets passing up an opportunity to pin another atrocity on the German lapel, you raise an interesting and logical point. However: it is very likely that the German weapons, if they did exist and if they were used against the Russians, were few in number and relatively small in terms of their explosive yield. In other words, they were "battlefield nukes". Thus not truly strategic in scope, but rather tactical and thus fairly localized. Also, I think we should keep in mind that we are talking about a pre-digital age in which there were no spy satellites, or social media, or cell phone cameras, or any of the other means and methods by which information (whether true or false) today is often sent instantaneously around the world. We are also talking about a brutal police state---the USSR---that was one of the most insular, murderous, paranoid, and secretive dictatorships in history. It would certainly have been in Stalin's best interests to keep a lid on a German atomic attack, to the extent that such was possible. The MAGIC intercept, interestingly, contains an alleged explanation for why there were no further attacks after 1943 (though it also appears to hint that one or more might have landed in England, which I find very hard to believe). It claims that the Soviets threatened the Germans with poison gas if they continued using their battlefield nuclear weapons. Perhaps Hitler, who suffered several gas attacks during his service in the First World War, and who was actually blinded for a time by the last one, flinched in the face of this threat? Just sayin'. At this point, I am not stating definitively that Yes, I believe these weapons were real and that the attacks occurred, or No, I don't believe. What I am doing is attempting to gather together in one place (and ultimately in one coherent narrative) all of the documentation and other evidence pointing to operational German nuclear weapons in one form or another during WWII, and away from the more or less conventional history of the war. Once I have done that, others are free to draw their own conclusions. At this point it's a very interesting "alternate history", and I am just following the documents down the trail.

sandeepmukherjee196
Financial supporter
Posts: 1390
Joined: 07 Aug 2014 05:34

Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Postby sandeepmukherjee196 » 23 May 2016 08:48

williamjpellas wrote:Sandeep, even today, there is a great deal of information about WWII in Russian / Soviet archives that has never seen the light of day in the West. In my opinion, one of the best points about Rainer Karlsch's work is that he often quotes from Soviet-era documents, including one that was "eyes only" for Stalin and just three other people. (This was the one describing the two test detonations at Ohrdurf, near the Buchenwald concentration camp complex.) As for Russian or Soviet documents describing the alleged nuclear attack(s) by the Germans on the Eastern Front, to my knowledge none have yet surfaced or been publicly acknowledged. There is an American document---the aforementioned MAGIC intercept---describing Japanese claims of such at attack, but no Russian papers as far as I have been able to determine. Not yet, anyway.


As for the Soviets passing up an opportunity to pin another atrocity on the German lapel, you raise an interesting and logical point. However: it is very likely that the German weapons, if they did exist and if they were used against the Russians, were few in number and relatively small in terms of their explosive yield. In other words, they were "battlefield nukes". Thus not truly strategic in scope, but rather tactical and thus fairly localized. Also, I think we should keep in mind that we are talking about a pre-digital age in which there were no spy satellites, or social media, or cell phone cameras, or any of the other means and methods by which information (whether true or false) today is often sent instantaneously around the world. We are also talking about a brutal police state---the USSR---that was one of the most insular, murderous, paranoid, and secretive dictatorships in history. It would certainly have been in Stalin's best interests to keep a lid on a German atomic attack, to the extent that such was possible. The MAGIC intercept, interestingly, contains an alleged explanation for why there were no further attacks after 1943 (though it also appears to hint that one or more might have landed in England, which I find very hard to believe). It claims that the Soviets threatened the Germans with poison gas if they continued using their battlefield nuclear weapons. Perhaps Hitler, who suffered several gas attacks during his service in the First World War, and who was actually blinded for a time by the last one, flinched in the face of this threat? Just sayin'. At this point, I am not stating definitively that Yes, I believe these weapons were real and that the attacks occurred, or No, I don't believe. What I am doing is attempting to gather together in one place (and ultimately in one coherent narrative) all of the documentation and other evidence pointing to operational German nuclear weapons in one form or another during WWII, and away from the more or less conventional history of the war. Once I have done that, others are free to draw their own conclusions. At this point it's a very interesting "alternate history", and I am just following the documents down the trail.



Hi William..

Even for alternate history there has to be a credible basis.

Tactical nuclear weapons are terrible things too. They wipe out units and formations wholesale in localised geographically concentrated areas like those obtaining at the packed eastern front in 1943. Their foot prints and fall outs can't be tucked away easily.

There were surviving soviet soldiers from WWII who outlived the soviet regime. Someone would have talked. Like they couldnt keep under wraps that the Dubosekovo Halt saga of heroism was a load of you-know-what in reality !

Hitler wouldnt have been scared of poison gas in 1943 with the front far away from Germany. And that wouldnt put him off from using a wonder weapon of the force multiplier effect of an atomic bomb.

When Hitler was destroying German infrastructure and basic facilities in 1945 since for him there was no tomorrow....he would certainly have used Nukes as a last gamble if he had any !

User avatar
williamjpellas
Member
Posts: 250
Joined: 28 Sep 2002 18:17
Location: Louisville, KY, USA

Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Postby williamjpellas » 25 May 2016 03:52

When Hitler was destroying German infrastructure and basic facilities in 1945 since for him there was no tomorrow....he would certainly have used Nukes as a last gamble if he had any !

Again, the British threat of an anthrax attack across the whole of Germany, along with adroit US nuclear propaganda (flying a brand new B-29 to England and publicly threatening to nuke German cities, even though the Manhattan Project was still a year or more away from operational bombs), may have served to keep Hitler from throwing his Doomsday weapons at the Allies, or at least at the US and Britain. Especially the anthrax.

There are those who allege that in the end, just weeks before he (apparently) committed suicide, Hitler did in fact order some kind of nuclear attack against the West. It is said that this would have involved the last handful of heavy bombers---and yes, the Germans did have some, they were used in the "Baby Blitz" against England in 1944---and that they would have taken off from Norway in an attempt to bomb New York City or perhaps Boston. Goering is said to have been the target of the otherwise puzzling arrest order from Hitler for refusing to follow orders to carry out this mission; whether this last bit is true or not, it is known that there was, in fact, a fairly large scale Luftwaffe mutiny near the end of the war, and that several hundred German air force personnel were executed in reprisal.

https://www.google.com/search?q=luftwaf ... e&ie=UTF-8

The most useful and well-researched among the first page of articles on the link above is probably this one:

http://www.456fis.org/THE_MISTERIES_OF_OHRDRUF.htm

With apologies for the mis-spelling of "misteries", that piece postulates a somewhat different take on the cargo of U-234, the German submarine intercepted and captured by US Navy forces in the Atlantic. U-234 had been on its way to Japan loaded with what most histories say was uranium oxide. I am aware of at least two (2) members of the crew of the U-234 who said otherwise, and it is known that the gold-lined canisters on board the German U-boat were marked "U-235". Thus most of the debate and research about the cargo of this particular U-boat concerns whether the "uranium" on board was "uranium oxide"---bad enough, but not bomb fuel, per se, in that form---or U-235, that is, highly enriched uranium (HEU) that was thus ready for use in a bomb of whatever configuration. Here it should be noted that the late Col. John Lansdale, head of counterintelligence and the top spook in the Manhattan Project, stated several times prior to his death, both in print and in video interviews, that "...the uranium (from the U-234) went to the Manhattan Engineer District" (the earlier name for the Project), thus seemingly confirming that the cargo was intended for Japanese atomic fission bombs and was instead put to use in US weapons.

There is another possibility, however. The Germans had at least one more super-explosive R&D effort---in addition to attempting to produce more conventional atomic or nuclear weapons---and that was "Operation HEXENKESSEL". Originally intended as an air-and-coal-dust explosive to be detonated in the midst of Allied bomber formations, Hexenkessel was taken over by the SS after considerable progress in earlier years by Luftwaffe scientists. Both British and American intelligence reported that "a pinkish waxy substance" was added to the basic formula and that this substance, whatever it was, made the already-powerful explosive exponentially more destructive. Thus the article speculates that what the U-234 was really carrying was a uranium-based "plasmoid" to be used as a catalyst for turbocharging Japanese versions of the Hexenkessel weapon. I am firmly convinced that Hexenkessel was real and viable, and that its firepower certainly approached more conventional first generation atomic fission bombs, though Hexenkessel's explosion, while widespread (apparently able to blow down trees 3 miles away), was probably more properly a very broad medium explosion as opposed to the super-high-explosion-with-immensely-powerful-pressure-wave produced by the US bombs.

Anyway, I'm not necessarily convinced that the Germans were trying to send Hexenkessel to Japan, but it certainly would not surprise me in the least.

Tiger B
Member
Posts: 22
Joined: 03 Jun 2014 09:06

Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Postby Tiger B » 14 Sep 2017 04:23

phylo_roadking wrote:
The basic science of atomic weapons was known to both sides in 1942.


To be fair - and accurate....not quite ;) Heisenberg's conversation with Bohr indicated he had no idea how a "bomb" might be constructed or set off; as of 1942 he was still running with the idea that a "bomb" was a reactor allowed to run explosively critical.



To be fair and accurate, none of the 'public history' of the Bohr/Heisenberg conversation makes any sense.

Bohr ran off, having left Heisenberg in a pique, because of a drawing and a /suggestion/ that either German and World Scientists work together to avoid the development of atomic weapons (what would Bohr be able to do, from occupied Europe, his every letter under censorship by both sides, if it could even reach a post December-7 USA at all?) OR (what Bohr suggests) he tried to coopt The Great Dane into making Germany competitive with the 'far more advanced' Allied effort.

Indicating the Heisenberg knew he was in over his head, something repeatedly proven to him by a very bitter Paul Harteck who essentially made a fool of the 'Nobel Laureate' _repeatedly_ in the Epsilon tapes. Not least being an off the cuff neutron radius calculation which was more accurate than the one we were using and (and would continue to be so, until the 1960s and mainframe computers) and which made utter hash of Heisenberg's 'multiple ton' conditional material requirements via the simple fact that NOT EVERY ATOM NEEDS TO GO FISSILE TO GET RCR.

So why would Bohr run off like a little girl and leave Heisenberg sitting alone like a suitor with a ring on the veritable park bench? Could it be that this is NOT what happened? That the 'little box with lines radiating from it' was NOT what Bohr kept on him from that moment until he could self evacuate to Sweden and then onto America to show his fellow physicists?

Let's consider an alternative: Heisenberg is a traitor to the German cause. They are sitting on a park bench in a private, walled, garden because Bohr's home is likely bugged. The conversation has NOTHING to do with 'reactors and control rods' but is rather related to a GAS DIFFUSION PLANT which is the earliest form of radio isotope separation, pioneered by Jewish German Gustav Hertz.

>
On 27 April 1945, Thiessen arrived at von Ardenne's institute in an armored vehicle with a major of the Soviet Army, who was also a leading Soviet chemist.[14] All four of the pact members were taken to the Soviet Union. Hertz was made head of Institute G, in Agudseri (Agudzery), about 10 km southeast of Sukhumi and a suburb of Gul’rips (Gulrip'shi).[14][15] Topics assigned to Gustav Hertz's Institute G included: (1) Separation of isotopes by diffusion in a flow of inert gases, for which Gustav Hertz was the leader, (2) Development of a condensation pump, for which Justus Mühlenpfordt was the leader, (3) Design and build a mass spectrometer for determining the isotopic composition of uranium, for which Werner Schütze was the leader, (4) Development of frameless (ceramic) diffusion partitions for filters, for which Reinhold Reichmann was the leader, and (5) Development of a theory of stability and control of a diffusion cascade, for which Heinz Barwich was the leader;[14][16]
>

Wiki.

Now, Hertz was descended from Jews. So he didn't get the kind of funding that the KWI and 'Uranium Club' did. But his IS the simplest method and yet it is also the SOLE method for which we don't see assigned university/professors. Bagge and Klusius did Thermal Diffusion. Harteck did Centrifuge. Weitzsacker (from memory) was on the Sluice. And Von Ardenne covered both electromagnetic separation (his system's capture tank was 20% more efficient than the Calutron) and probably the 'photo chemical method'. But no mention of a serious gas diffusion effort.

And you know, the funny thing about the SS is, they may have executed Jews by the trainful in The East but they were pragmatic about a lot of things related to 'Juden Physik' that would have been pshawed in the regular German university system as Reich's Research Council, headed by Heisenberg and his cronies.

So where is the Gas Diffusion Werke? The very fact that there isn't one, publically, is highly suggestive that there was.

And the easy contender is Buna 102 at Monawitz which never produced a pound of synthetic rubber and which was the focus of considerable interest at the Industrialist Trials in Nuremberg and was conveniently close to both Ohrdruf and the Joachimsthal mine complex.

So.

What if.

Heisenberg's 'box with arrows' was NOT a reactor and the reason that Bohr got himself out of country and over to the Allies RIGHT NOW after his little conversation with his student was that Heisenberg, 'The White Jew', had somehow learned of this off the books SS effort and shown him a gas diffusion process rendering, with input:output efficiency levels, similar to 'The Monster' which South Africa built for Qaddafi.

Now the arrows can have a number representing a given percentage Hex going in one side and a given concentration of U235 coming out the other. Rinse Repeat, X-many months to critical mass quantities of weaponized material.

Though it is a prime producer at industrial scales, Gas Diffusion is one continuous plumbing disaster waiting to happen with the caustic, radioactive, explosive UF6 running through it. We had ENORMOUS problems getting the molecular filter sieves correct at Oak Ridge so that they would capture but not clog and hold together long enough to make a few runs to get enough enriched gas to really begin to cluster up atoms. But the Germans were master molecular chemists. IG Farben was the pillaged essence of all the big American bigchem/bigpharma companies today. And with alloys like Bondur, they could have gotten ahead.

Way Ahead.

If that piece of paper says: "They are getting 10% per run and can make a bomb in a year." Bohr is going to pat his student on the head and call MI6 to come make a pickup because that piece of paper is going to tell the U.S. Manhattan District that they need to seriously get into the game. Look at the funding dates for the big expansions at Oak Ridge vs. Buna 102 and ask yourself: is the big brouhaha between Bohr and Heisenberg really what it seems?

How far ahead were they? We still can't account for over half the 3,000 tons of Uranium taken from Belgium. And the Germans had a process, which Harteck saw, that produced a ton of metallic uranium PER DAY. Thus the fantasy that there was a 'Uranium Shortage' in German during the wartime years is an _utter farce_.

Just last year, we finally found and presumably raised (Glomar) the last two U-Boat war graves which 'private interests' (CIA) had sponsored the search for, for over 70 years. Those U-Boats were among 19 which were making routine runs between Jakarta and Germany, of which 11 were sunk, in 1944 alone. U-864 is going to be entombed in concrete, despite the certainty that it will crush the hull and release any mercury in it's glass philes which was the justification for it's encapsulation to begin with. Why? Because they are terrified that the world will someday discover that the Germans and Japanese were world nuclear leaders, passing around highly refined, weapons grade, U233 or even transmutated (Bell = Tokomak) Pu240. And Lucy will have a lot of splainin' to do. U-534, which was raised, was left to sit in the open for five years, rusting away, before being gutted and turned into a museum piece. Why? Cooling off period for a nuclear cargo removed from it's belly?

Oppenheimer: "The bombs were of German provenance."
Teller: "The Germans did much of the ground work for the fusion weapons. The best physicists stayed in Germany."
Radecs: "The bombs exploded over Japan were not of U.S. origin. The first U.S. designed bombs were not detonated until 1947 over Enivetok."

The Germans had the bomb. The Germans didn't use the bomb, even to defend their own territory, because Hitler didn't want a weapon which would end life for centuries across the planet. The U.S. faced the utter exposure of the massive fraud of a 3 billion dollar weapons program whose Jewish Genius had produced Zip Squat Denadda with a U.S. Senator threatening to expose the truth via independent review. And so, to cover their own behinds, the U.S. military dropped weapons of mass destruction, in direct violation of the Hague Convention and indeed ANY moral code, on a helpless nation's civilian targets. For no better reason than to cover up their own ineptitude with the displayed result of a mazcat of over 200,000 dead.

The were not U.S. Bombs. Little Boy in particular doesn't even look American. And the 60kg/132lbs of fuel in it was more than we should have had in the ENTIRE U.S. stockpile, even if they had not been using U235 to hot-cycle the breeder at Hanford.

We have been lied to for _decades_.

Tiger B
Member
Posts: 22
Joined: 03 Jun 2014 09:06

Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Postby Tiger B » 14 Sep 2017 06:37




An interesting and well-known source which descries in detail the first atomic bombs. Just one problem though - no mention at all of them being German..........

As for this nonsense about matchbox size - the small diameter of a plutonium core is going to be of the order of 9cm. That's three of the largest matchboxes sold in the UK stacked in a pile.

There remains a complete lack of evidence in the form of primary sources for any workable atomic bombs being made, let alone tested, anywhere in Europe during WW2.[/quote]

No. There is a BBC video which details the Ohdruf explosion site, including the crater where the bomb exploded and the warped and dead trees around it. And that same video also includes a beach area on Rugen where pieces of Trinitite were recovered. This documentary also includes interviews with Clare Werner, Luigi Romersa and one of the men who worked with Stettin or Dallenbach, covering the Austrian effort which is where the real theoretical work and subscale component testing was done. This last individual describes exactly how the bomb was made to function.

You put layered paraffin/graphite wax between stages of a pusher type system and build yield by tickling the tail of the dragon using a small nuclear initiator or 'sparkplug' to generate the XRays which compress LD6 until the fusion fuel is sufficiently energetic to simulate the neutron flux levels of a genuine nuke. The secondary at the end of the pusher is protected from dissemblage by Zirconium or Beryllium inhibitors which keep the flux levels building until there is enough activity to stimulate even U238.

The Germans were doing this because they were short of time and materials as the Reich collapsed and they needed battlefield weapons to support the likes of Steiner's attack into the Soviet Flank outside Berlin. The only question is whether they were using a conventional, transuranic, element or something more akin to an isomer/isoton which fits more closely with the 'cherry liquid' Xerum 525 and restrictive volumes mentioned in the Ohrdruf tests.

Von Ardenne is the man with the plan here because he had invented the Von Ardenne Device, the worlds best source of tailored high capacitance discharge voltage and that was both what 'spun up' the Uranium or Thorium isotopes in a German Tokomak to generate a very small trigger as a likely replacement for the traditional pit in the weapon itself. An isomer of Plutonium or Uranium which goes from metastable to base charge state (using another VAD instead of explosives) flashes an INCREDIBLE amount of gamma/X-ray and the heat from that easily replicates the pressure deltas of the best implosion systems in existence.

Pressure = Fusion in Deuterium and Tritium, rapidly building your neutron count.

Since his lab outside Lichterfelde (sp.), near Berlin, was also doing the experimental separation methods for LIthium from salt brine and granite to make the Lithium Deuteride at the end of the war (what actually netted him his life and a Stalin prize, after the Russians took him); he was probably the one, through Ohnesorge's Reichs Post Ministry (better atomics by licking Hitler's ***) who put the two together. Or at least who provided the engineering for the 'photo chemical method' (as Die Glocke) which Weitzsacker mentioned ONE TIME at Farm Hall, only to have his colleagues take turns jumping down his throat to shut him up.

The Germans got a yield. All the top U.S. scientists, including Oppenheimer and Teller, said so. 'The (Hiroshima/Nagasaki) Bombs were of German provenance.' etc. The Russians said so. By inference, Ivy Mike as the 'The worlds first exploding meat packing plant' was a joke to them because they had mastered non-cryo fusion weapons (or boosted which is protofusion) from Von Ardenne, years before.

The U.S. likes to think we are this big, bad, bold bunch of innovators but as far as atomics go, we were waaaay behind. What the Germans were doing in 1944-45 was pushing the SOA into science fiction. And that is why the CIA has spent BILLIONS with a B to track down all of the German transport subs, moving between The Reich and Japan, even though, as solitary war graves, far off the convoy routes, they -should- have minimal value, historically or otherwise.

We do not need an Islamic dominated world with German engineered micro radiofuel or even 'clean' fusion weapons with .15-.75KT yields.

Tiger B
Member
Posts: 22
Joined: 03 Jun 2014 09:06

Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Postby Tiger B » 14 Sep 2017 07:00

tIn the 1960s, the East Germans considered this significant enough to hold the equivalent of a Coroner's Inquisition and several dozen witnesses in the Ohrdruf area testified. Including one janitor at the facility who was far closer to the detonation aftermath than Clare Werner and helped clear away bodies.

What is interesting is that no one bothered to polygraph or VSA these people, though some were alive as late as the early 2000s. Nor was there any attempt to rediscover/visit the site locations with these witnesses something that would be particularly informative for Mr. Romersa.

Nor any attempt to compare their recollections with what we now know atomic weapons look like.

"Why yes, that IS what it was, an atomic test!" Instead of "A tree in full leaf..."

There is a plethora of this kind of inane reporting with lines of questions that end abruptly and simple followups avoided in favor of 'feelings' counterpoints: "And for several days after we felt a certain fatigue..."

Clare Werner in particular is known to have had a pair of binoculars which Claus Von Stauffenberg (yes, /that/ Von Stauffenberg) left behind when he rushed from the area he had just arrived at, on July 20, 1944. Despite what she said about not being allowed to get any closer than several hundred yards, she should have been able to look at the test stand very closely.

Why didn't anyone commission an artist to draw her recollections of said tower?

If you know the test tower's height, even roughly, from a farm or kubel wagen parked in front of it, you can, looking at the crater (which still exists) to make a good guess as to the yield. From this, it should be possible to guess what kind of pinch or implosion or gun system was being used.

Again, this all points to a simple fact: Rather than defending the ALSOS lie of _Now It Can Be Told_, with an energetic counterargument, the truth is known to include a German first detonation as entry to the atomic club and so the emphasis is ALWAYS on "Let them say what they want to say and then DO NOTHING to question or counter their assertions."

When the response is to do nothing, you know that the assertions are true.

Another path of inquiry which suggests itself is why a 'representative' of the USSR was sitting on a hill, both for the Ohrdruf event and the Trinity test a couple months later. FDR didn't mention the successful test blast to Stalin, but Stalin already knew. HOW did they know to get there? WHAT was the connection, so deep in the German nuclear weapons development effort, that Stalin knew to have a commando or infiltrator there to observe?

User avatar
vladalex
Member
Posts: 486
Joined: 20 Nov 2011 18:27

Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Postby vladalex » 14 Sep 2017 08:09

Today is in fashion the rapid transmission of false news, so is the way the last war is affected in this way. These lies usually hide behind 3 walls, google, wiki, and ... the russian's archives of war not seen by anyone never, but used daily in different forums. In this way start very easy counterfactual histories, and all text's are full with the favourite words , if ... and then ...
This kind of ipothetically facts is subject for poor man educated, sorry for this ...
Regards,
Vladalex

witcher
Financial supporter
Posts: 68
Joined: 18 Aug 2005 01:16
Location: North Houston

Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Postby witcher » 14 Sep 2017 15:04

Shortly after the East opened up, I personally contacted the von Ardenne Institute on subject nuclear atomic/fission/fusion/non-standard; on any work the institute may have performed during ww2. The answer was a flat "none".

But this 'official' answer only adds to the confusion as we know there are public records( biography, purchase orders etc) that indicate work was being performed. We also know AH visited the institute on several occasions.

On the subject of Little Boy being the first n bomb used in wartime, this is a ridiculous- almost Religious belief in consumed propaganda.

One only has to visit the Los Alamos museum, take pics of the hi-res enlarged BW display photos , examine the items with a critical eye and study the wartime budget. None of the official record makes any sense. The one that really defies engineering practice ( even wartime) is to say the the bomb did not require testing.

"We are sure it will work.......testing would be a waste of time".

My sources are not from search engine results. They are from first person contacts and archive records.
But why does it matter anyway? Who cares, we should move on.


Return to “Other Equipment”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: CommonCrawl [Bot], Sturm78, Trendiction [Bot]