First atomic bomb was German !?!

Discussions on the equipment used by the Axis forces, apart from the things covered in the other sections. Hosted by Juha Tompuri
sandeepmukherjee196
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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Postby sandeepmukherjee196 » 21 May 2016 04:07

williamjpellas wrote:To my knowledge, sandeep is correct when it comes to the state of the art, so to speak, of German nerve gas. It was far more deadly than any comparable US or other Allied gas weapon---so far as is known or has surfaced in the public realm to date. However: wm is absolutely correct to point to vastly superior Allied logistics and control of the air as certain to be decisive in the event of a gas weapon - WMD exchange in the latter days of WWII. And the Allies had an ace up their sleeve. Even as the Germans had superior gas agents, the British had superior biological weapons. Their stockpile of anthrax was as fearsome and deadly a Doomsday weapon as any of the warring powers had or thought to possess. In short, had Germany even thought about attacking the Allies with nerve gas, the British would have seeded the entire German nation with anthrax within a week. This would have meant genocide of the German people for all intents and purposes. In my opinion, this deterrent is also the most likely explanation for why the alleged-to-exist German nuclear weapons (in whatever form) were not used---at least not against the Western Allies. There is of course the matter of various documents attesting to their existence and purported use against the USSR on the eastern front.


Hi William..

The British anthrax angle certainly gives food for thought. I am largely in the dark till now on this issue.

However on the issue of "German nuclear weapons (in whatever form)" I find the existence of atomic weapons in whatever form in the German arsenal strictly an imaginary proposition.

To my knowledge there is absolutely no question of any operationalised german nuclear weapon in WW II. So the purported use of such weapons on the eastern front is impossible.

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Postby williamjpellas » 21 May 2016 20:54

Sandeep, here is a BBC article that gives a general overview of the British anthrax capability in WWII:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/1457035.stm

As for "no question of any operationalised German nuclear weapon in WW II", there is some documentary evidence to the contrary. The most notable, though by no means the only, pieces of that puzzle are: the MAGIC intercept (posted earlier in this thread and which I have seen in person at the US National Archives) of a Japanese attache officer transmitting from Stockholm, Sweden, in which he alleges German nuclear attacks against the Russians, several stories, in both magazine and book form, by the Italian journalist Luigi Romersma in which he claimed to have witnessed some kind of German nuclear weapon test detonation at or near Rugen Island in 1944, the "Zinsser Affidavit", which is the sworn testimony of Luftwaffe pilot Hans Zinsser, who claimed to have witnessed the Rugen Island test while flying an He-111 in the vicinity, said affidavit as found in a formerly Top Secret US Naval Intelligence report on "the development of the German atomic bomb" (now declassified), and of course the work of Rainer Karlsch and related documents and concepts such as the Schumann-Trinks bomb schematic (which now resides in the German Army museum), the "bazooka effect"---an alleged alternate method of detonating some types of nuclear weapons---and so on. There is also a fair amount of more speculative information in various corners of the internet, some of it obviously kook-conspiracy-fringe-half-baked baloney, but some of it worthy of further investigation. And so on.

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Postby sandeepmukherjee196 » 22 May 2016 09:41

williamjpellas wrote:Sandeep, here is a BBC article that gives a general overview of the British anthrax capability in WWII:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/1457035.stm

As for "no question of any operationalised German nuclear weapon in WW II", there is some documentary evidence to the contrary. The most notable, though by no means the only, pieces of that puzzle are: the MAGIC intercept (posted earlier in this thread and which I have seen in person at the US National Archives) of a Japanese attache officer transmitting from Stockholm, Sweden, in which he alleges German nuclear attacks against the Russians, several stories, in both magazine and book form, by the Italian journalist Luigi Romersma in which he claimed to have witnessed some kind of German nuclear weapon test detonation at or near Rugen Island in 1944, the "Zinsser Affidavit", which is the sworn testimony of Luftwaffe pilot Hans Zinsser, who claimed to have witnessed the Rugen Island test while flying an He-111 in the vicinity, said affidavit as found in a formerly Top Secret US Naval Intelligence report on "the development of the German atomic bomb" (now declassified), and of course the work of Rainer Karlsch and related documents and concepts such as the Schumann-Trinks bomb schematic (which now resides in the German Army museum), the "bazooka effect"---an alleged alternate method of detonating some types of nuclear weapons---and so on. There is also a fair amount of more speculative information in various corners of the internet, some of it obviously kook-conspiracy-fringe-half-baked baloney, but some of it worthy of further investigation. And so on.



Hi William..

Does any shred of documented narrative from any USSR / Russian archive mention even a whiff of a German atomic weapon attack on the eastern front? Seeing that the Soviets were apt to pin any and every atrocity on the Germans in WW II..real or imagined..or transferance of their own misdeeds onto the Wehrmacht (Katyn massacre), it would be mighty strange if something as juicy as an actual nuclear - first - use -atrocity will be passed up !

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Postby williamjpellas » 23 May 2016 05:04

Sandeep, even today, there is a great deal of information about WWII in Russian / Soviet archives that has never seen the light of day in the West. In my opinion, one of the best points about Rainer Karlsch's work is that he often quotes from Soviet-era documents, including one that was "eyes only" for Stalin and just three other people. (This was the one describing the two test detonations at Ohrdurf, near the Buchenwald concentration camp complex.) As for Russian or Soviet documents describing the alleged nuclear attack(s) by the Germans on the Eastern Front, to my knowledge none have yet surfaced or been publicly acknowledged. There is an American document---the aforementioned MAGIC intercept---describing Japanese claims of such at attack, but no Russian papers as far as I have been able to determine. Not yet, anyway.


As for the Soviets passing up an opportunity to pin another atrocity on the German lapel, you raise an interesting and logical point. However: it is very likely that the German weapons, if they did exist and if they were used against the Russians, were few in number and relatively small in terms of their explosive yield. In other words, they were "battlefield nukes". Thus not truly strategic in scope, but rather tactical and thus fairly localized. Also, I think we should keep in mind that we are talking about a pre-digital age in which there were no spy satellites, or social media, or cell phone cameras, or any of the other means and methods by which information (whether true or false) today is often sent instantaneously around the world. We are also talking about a brutal police state---the USSR---that was one of the most insular, murderous, paranoid, and secretive dictatorships in history. It would certainly have been in Stalin's best interests to keep a lid on a German atomic attack, to the extent that such was possible. The MAGIC intercept, interestingly, contains an alleged explanation for why there were no further attacks after 1943 (though it also appears to hint that one or more might have landed in England, which I find very hard to believe). It claims that the Soviets threatened the Germans with poison gas if they continued using their battlefield nuclear weapons. Perhaps Hitler, who suffered several gas attacks during his service in the First World War, and who was actually blinded for a time by the last one, flinched in the face of this threat? Just sayin'. At this point, I am not stating definitively that Yes, I believe these weapons were real and that the attacks occurred, or No, I don't believe. What I am doing is attempting to gather together in one place (and ultimately in one coherent narrative) all of the documentation and other evidence pointing to operational German nuclear weapons in one form or another during WWII, and away from the more or less conventional history of the war. Once I have done that, others are free to draw their own conclusions. At this point it's a very interesting "alternate history", and I am just following the documents down the trail.

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Postby sandeepmukherjee196 » 23 May 2016 08:48

williamjpellas wrote:Sandeep, even today, there is a great deal of information about WWII in Russian / Soviet archives that has never seen the light of day in the West. In my opinion, one of the best points about Rainer Karlsch's work is that he often quotes from Soviet-era documents, including one that was "eyes only" for Stalin and just three other people. (This was the one describing the two test detonations at Ohrdurf, near the Buchenwald concentration camp complex.) As for Russian or Soviet documents describing the alleged nuclear attack(s) by the Germans on the Eastern Front, to my knowledge none have yet surfaced or been publicly acknowledged. There is an American document---the aforementioned MAGIC intercept---describing Japanese claims of such at attack, but no Russian papers as far as I have been able to determine. Not yet, anyway.


As for the Soviets passing up an opportunity to pin another atrocity on the German lapel, you raise an interesting and logical point. However: it is very likely that the German weapons, if they did exist and if they were used against the Russians, were few in number and relatively small in terms of their explosive yield. In other words, they were "battlefield nukes". Thus not truly strategic in scope, but rather tactical and thus fairly localized. Also, I think we should keep in mind that we are talking about a pre-digital age in which there were no spy satellites, or social media, or cell phone cameras, or any of the other means and methods by which information (whether true or false) today is often sent instantaneously around the world. We are also talking about a brutal police state---the USSR---that was one of the most insular, murderous, paranoid, and secretive dictatorships in history. It would certainly have been in Stalin's best interests to keep a lid on a German atomic attack, to the extent that such was possible. The MAGIC intercept, interestingly, contains an alleged explanation for why there were no further attacks after 1943 (though it also appears to hint that one or more might have landed in England, which I find very hard to believe). It claims that the Soviets threatened the Germans with poison gas if they continued using their battlefield nuclear weapons. Perhaps Hitler, who suffered several gas attacks during his service in the First World War, and who was actually blinded for a time by the last one, flinched in the face of this threat? Just sayin'. At this point, I am not stating definitively that Yes, I believe these weapons were real and that the attacks occurred, or No, I don't believe. What I am doing is attempting to gather together in one place (and ultimately in one coherent narrative) all of the documentation and other evidence pointing to operational German nuclear weapons in one form or another during WWII, and away from the more or less conventional history of the war. Once I have done that, others are free to draw their own conclusions. At this point it's a very interesting "alternate history", and I am just following the documents down the trail.



Hi William..

Even for alternate history there has to be a credible basis.

Tactical nuclear weapons are terrible things too. They wipe out units and formations wholesale in localised geographically concentrated areas like those obtaining at the packed eastern front in 1943. Their foot prints and fall outs can't be tucked away easily.

There were surviving soviet soldiers from WWII who outlived the soviet regime. Someone would have talked. Like they couldnt keep under wraps that the Dubosekovo Halt saga of heroism was a load of you-know-what in reality !

Hitler wouldnt have been scared of poison gas in 1943 with the front far away from Germany. And that wouldnt put him off from using a wonder weapon of the force multiplier effect of an atomic bomb.

When Hitler was destroying German infrastructure and basic facilities in 1945 since for him there was no tomorrow....he would certainly have used Nukes as a last gamble if he had any !

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Postby williamjpellas » 25 May 2016 03:52

When Hitler was destroying German infrastructure and basic facilities in 1945 since for him there was no tomorrow....he would certainly have used Nukes as a last gamble if he had any !

Again, the British threat of an anthrax attack across the whole of Germany, along with adroit US nuclear propaganda (flying a brand new B-29 to England and publicly threatening to nuke German cities, even though the Manhattan Project was still a year or more away from operational bombs), may have served to keep Hitler from throwing his Doomsday weapons at the Allies, or at least at the US and Britain. Especially the anthrax.

There are those who allege that in the end, just weeks before he (apparently) committed suicide, Hitler did in fact order some kind of nuclear attack against the West. It is said that this would have involved the last handful of heavy bombers---and yes, the Germans did have some, they were used in the "Baby Blitz" against England in 1944---and that they would have taken off from Norway in an attempt to bomb New York City or perhaps Boston. Goering is said to have been the target of the otherwise puzzling arrest order from Hitler for refusing to follow orders to carry out this mission; whether this last bit is true or not, it is known that there was, in fact, a fairly large scale Luftwaffe mutiny near the end of the war, and that several hundred German air force personnel were executed in reprisal.

https://www.google.com/search?q=luftwaf ... e&ie=UTF-8

The most useful and well-researched among the first page of articles on the link above is probably this one:

http://www.456fis.org/THE_MISTERIES_OF_OHRDRUF.htm

With apologies for the mis-spelling of "misteries", that piece postulates a somewhat different take on the cargo of U-234, the German submarine intercepted and captured by US Navy forces in the Atlantic. U-234 had been on its way to Japan loaded with what most histories say was uranium oxide. I am aware of at least two (2) members of the crew of the U-234 who said otherwise, and it is known that the gold-lined canisters on board the German U-boat were marked "U-235". Thus most of the debate and research about the cargo of this particular U-boat concerns whether the "uranium" on board was "uranium oxide"---bad enough, but not bomb fuel, per se, in that form---or U-235, that is, highly enriched uranium (HEU) that was thus ready for use in a bomb of whatever configuration. Here it should be noted that the late Col. John Lansdale, head of counterintelligence and the top spook in the Manhattan Project, stated several times prior to his death, both in print and in video interviews, that "...the uranium (from the U-234) went to the Manhattan Engineer District" (the earlier name for the Project), thus seemingly confirming that the cargo was intended for Japanese atomic fission bombs and was instead put to use in US weapons.

There is another possibility, however. The Germans had at least one more super-explosive R&D effort---in addition to attempting to produce more conventional atomic or nuclear weapons---and that was "Operation HEXENKESSEL". Originally intended as an air-and-coal-dust explosive to be detonated in the midst of Allied bomber formations, Hexenkessel was taken over by the SS after considerable progress in earlier years by Luftwaffe scientists. Both British and American intelligence reported that "a pinkish waxy substance" was added to the basic formula and that this substance, whatever it was, made the already-powerful explosive exponentially more destructive. Thus the article speculates that what the U-234 was really carrying was a uranium-based "plasmoid" to be used as a catalyst for turbocharging Japanese versions of the Hexenkessel weapon. I am firmly convinced that Hexenkessel was real and viable, and that its firepower certainly approached more conventional first generation atomic fission bombs, though Hexenkessel's explosion, while widespread (apparently able to blow down trees 3 miles away), was probably more properly a very broad medium explosion as opposed to the super-high-explosion-with-immensely-powerful-pressure-wave produced by the US bombs.

Anyway, I'm not necessarily convinced that the Germans were trying to send Hexenkessel to Japan, but it certainly would not surprise me in the least.

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Postby Tiger B » 14 Sep 2017 04:23

phylo_roadking wrote:
The basic science of atomic weapons was known to both sides in 1942.


To be fair - and accurate....not quite ;) Heisenberg's conversation with Bohr indicated he had no idea how a "bomb" might be constructed or set off; as of 1942 he was still running with the idea that a "bomb" was a reactor allowed to run explosively critical.



To be fair and accurate, none of the 'public history' of the Bohr/Heisenberg conversation makes any sense.

Bohr ran off, having left Heisenberg in a pique, because of a drawing and a /suggestion/ that either German and World Scientists work together to avoid the development of atomic weapons (what would Bohr be able to do, from occupied Europe, his every letter under censorship by both sides, if it could even reach a post December-7 USA at all?) OR (what Bohr suggests) he tried to coopt The Great Dane into making Germany competitive with the 'far more advanced' Allied effort.

Indicating the Heisenberg knew he was in over his head, something repeatedly proven to him by a very bitter Paul Harteck who essentially made a fool of the 'Nobel Laureate' _repeatedly_ in the Epsilon tapes. Not least being an off the cuff neutron radius calculation which was more accurate than the one we were using and (and would continue to be so, until the 1960s and mainframe computers) and which made utter hash of Heisenberg's 'multiple ton' conditional material requirements via the simple fact that NOT EVERY ATOM NEEDS TO GO FISSILE TO GET RCR.

So why would Bohr run off like a little girl and leave Heisenberg sitting alone like a suitor with a ring on the veritable park bench? Could it be that this is NOT what happened? That the 'little box with lines radiating from it' was NOT what Bohr kept on him from that moment until he could self evacuate to Sweden and then onto America to show his fellow physicists?

Let's consider an alternative: Heisenberg is a traitor to the German cause. They are sitting on a park bench in a private, walled, garden because Bohr's home is likely bugged. The conversation has NOTHING to do with 'reactors and control rods' but is rather related to a GAS DIFFUSION PLANT which is the earliest form of radio isotope separation, pioneered by Jewish German Gustav Hertz.

>
On 27 April 1945, Thiessen arrived at von Ardenne's institute in an armored vehicle with a major of the Soviet Army, who was also a leading Soviet chemist.[14] All four of the pact members were taken to the Soviet Union. Hertz was made head of Institute G, in Agudseri (Agudzery), about 10 km southeast of Sukhumi and a suburb of Gul’rips (Gulrip'shi).[14][15] Topics assigned to Gustav Hertz's Institute G included: (1) Separation of isotopes by diffusion in a flow of inert gases, for which Gustav Hertz was the leader, (2) Development of a condensation pump, for which Justus Mühlenpfordt was the leader, (3) Design and build a mass spectrometer for determining the isotopic composition of uranium, for which Werner Schütze was the leader, (4) Development of frameless (ceramic) diffusion partitions for filters, for which Reinhold Reichmann was the leader, and (5) Development of a theory of stability and control of a diffusion cascade, for which Heinz Barwich was the leader;[14][16]
>

Wiki.

Now, Hertz was descended from Jews. So he didn't get the kind of funding that the KWI and 'Uranium Club' did. But his IS the simplest method and yet it is also the SOLE method for which we don't see assigned university/professors. Bagge and Klusius did Thermal Diffusion. Harteck did Centrifuge. Weitzsacker (from memory) was on the Sluice. And Von Ardenne covered both electromagnetic separation (his system's capture tank was 20% more efficient than the Calutron) and probably the 'photo chemical method'. But no mention of a serious gas diffusion effort.

And you know, the funny thing about the SS is, they may have executed Jews by the trainful in The East but they were pragmatic about a lot of things related to 'Juden Physik' that would have been pshawed in the regular German university system as Reich's Research Council, headed by Heisenberg and his cronies.

So where is the Gas Diffusion Werke? The very fact that there isn't one, publically, is highly suggestive that there was.

And the easy contender is Buna 102 at Monawitz which never produced a pound of synthetic rubber and which was the focus of considerable interest at the Industrialist Trials in Nuremberg and was conveniently close to both Ohrdruf and the Joachimsthal mine complex.

So.

What if.

Heisenberg's 'box with arrows' was NOT a reactor and the reason that Bohr got himself out of country and over to the Allies RIGHT NOW after his little conversation with his student was that Heisenberg, 'The White Jew', had somehow learned of this off the books SS effort and shown him a gas diffusion process rendering, with input:output efficiency levels, similar to 'The Monster' which South Africa built for Qaddafi.

Now the arrows can have a number representing a given percentage Hex going in one side and a given concentration of U235 coming out the other. Rinse Repeat, X-many months to critical mass quantities of weaponized material.

Though it is a prime producer at industrial scales, Gas Diffusion is one continuous plumbing disaster waiting to happen with the caustic, radioactive, explosive UF6 running through it. We had ENORMOUS problems getting the molecular filter sieves correct at Oak Ridge so that they would capture but not clog and hold together long enough to make a few runs to get enough enriched gas to really begin to cluster up atoms. But the Germans were master molecular chemists. IG Farben was the pillaged essence of all the big American bigchem/bigpharma companies today. And with alloys like Bondur, they could have gotten ahead.

Way Ahead.

If that piece of paper says: "They are getting 10% per run and can make a bomb in a year." Bohr is going to pat his student on the head and call MI6 to come make a pickup because that piece of paper is going to tell the U.S. Manhattan District that they need to seriously get into the game. Look at the funding dates for the big expansions at Oak Ridge vs. Buna 102 and ask yourself: is the big brouhaha between Bohr and Heisenberg really what it seems?

How far ahead were they? We still can't account for over half the 3,000 tons of Uranium taken from Belgium. And the Germans had a process, which Harteck saw, that produced a ton of metallic uranium PER DAY. Thus the fantasy that there was a 'Uranium Shortage' in German during the wartime years is an _utter farce_.

Just last year, we finally found and presumably raised (Glomar) the last two U-Boat war graves which 'private interests' (CIA) had sponsored the search for, for over 70 years. Those U-Boats were among 19 which were making routine runs between Jakarta and Germany, of which 11 were sunk, in 1944 alone. U-864 is going to be entombed in concrete, despite the certainty that it will crush the hull and release any mercury in it's glass philes which was the justification for it's encapsulation to begin with. Why? Because they are terrified that the world will someday discover that the Germans and Japanese were world nuclear leaders, passing around highly refined, weapons grade, U233 or even transmutated (Bell = Tokomak) Pu240. And Lucy will have a lot of splainin' to do. U-534, which was raised, was left to sit in the open for five years, rusting away, before being gutted and turned into a museum piece. Why? Cooling off period for a nuclear cargo removed from it's belly?

Oppenheimer: "The bombs were of German provenance."
Teller: "The Germans did much of the ground work for the fusion weapons. The best physicists stayed in Germany."
Radecs: "The bombs exploded over Japan were not of U.S. origin. The first U.S. designed bombs were not detonated until 1947 over Enivetok."

The Germans had the bomb. The Germans didn't use the bomb, even to defend their own territory, because Hitler didn't want a weapon which would end life for centuries across the planet. The U.S. faced the utter exposure of the massive fraud of a 3 billion dollar weapons program whose Jewish Genius had produced Zip Squat Denadda with a U.S. Senator threatening to expose the truth via independent review. And so, to cover their own behinds, the U.S. military dropped weapons of mass destruction, in direct violation of the Hague Convention and indeed ANY moral code, on a helpless nation's civilian targets. For no better reason than to cover up their own ineptitude with the displayed result of a mazcat of over 200,000 dead.

The were not U.S. Bombs. Little Boy in particular doesn't even look American. And the 60kg/132lbs of fuel in it was more than we should have had in the ENTIRE U.S. stockpile, even if they had not been using U235 to hot-cycle the breeder at Hanford.

We have been lied to for _decades_.

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Postby Tiger B » 14 Sep 2017 06:37




An interesting and well-known source which descries in detail the first atomic bombs. Just one problem though - no mention at all of them being German..........

As for this nonsense about matchbox size - the small diameter of a plutonium core is going to be of the order of 9cm. That's three of the largest matchboxes sold in the UK stacked in a pile.

There remains a complete lack of evidence in the form of primary sources for any workable atomic bombs being made, let alone tested, anywhere in Europe during WW2.[/quote]

No. There is a BBC video which details the Ohdruf explosion site, including the crater where the bomb exploded and the warped and dead trees around it. And that same video also includes a beach area on Rugen where pieces of Trinitite were recovered. This documentary also includes interviews with Clare Werner, Luigi Romersa and one of the men who worked with Stettin or Dallenbach, covering the Austrian effort which is where the real theoretical work and subscale component testing was done. This last individual describes exactly how the bomb was made to function.

You put layered paraffin/graphite wax between stages of a pusher type system and build yield by tickling the tail of the dragon using a small nuclear initiator or 'sparkplug' to generate the XRays which compress LD6 until the fusion fuel is sufficiently energetic to simulate the neutron flux levels of a genuine nuke. The secondary at the end of the pusher is protected from dissemblage by Zirconium or Beryllium inhibitors which keep the flux levels building until there is enough activity to stimulate even U238.

The Germans were doing this because they were short of time and materials as the Reich collapsed and they needed battlefield weapons to support the likes of Steiner's attack into the Soviet Flank outside Berlin. The only question is whether they were using a conventional, transuranic, element or something more akin to an isomer/isoton which fits more closely with the 'cherry liquid' Xerum 525 and restrictive volumes mentioned in the Ohrdruf tests.

Von Ardenne is the man with the plan here because he had invented the Von Ardenne Device, the worlds best source of tailored high capacitance discharge voltage and that was both what 'spun up' the Uranium or Thorium isotopes in a German Tokomak to generate a very small trigger as a likely replacement for the traditional pit in the weapon itself. An isomer of Plutonium or Uranium which goes from metastable to base charge state (using another VAD instead of explosives) flashes an INCREDIBLE amount of gamma/X-ray and the heat from that easily replicates the pressure deltas of the best implosion systems in existence.

Pressure = Fusion in Deuterium and Tritium, rapidly building your neutron count.

Since his lab outside Lichterfelde (sp.), near Berlin, was also doing the experimental separation methods for LIthium from salt brine and granite to make the Lithium Deuteride at the end of the war (what actually netted him his life and a Stalin prize, after the Russians took him); he was probably the one, through Ohnesorge's Reichs Post Ministry (better atomics by licking Hitler's ***) who put the two together. Or at least who provided the engineering for the 'photo chemical method' (as Die Glocke) which Weitzsacker mentioned ONE TIME at Farm Hall, only to have his colleagues take turns jumping down his throat to shut him up.

The Germans got a yield. All the top U.S. scientists, including Oppenheimer and Teller, said so. 'The (Hiroshima/Nagasaki) Bombs were of German provenance.' etc. The Russians said so. By inference, Ivy Mike as the 'The worlds first exploding meat packing plant' was a joke to them because they had mastered non-cryo fusion weapons (or boosted which is protofusion) from Von Ardenne, years before.

The U.S. likes to think we are this big, bad, bold bunch of innovators but as far as atomics go, we were waaaay behind. What the Germans were doing in 1944-45 was pushing the SOA into science fiction. And that is why the CIA has spent BILLIONS with a B to track down all of the German transport subs, moving between The Reich and Japan, even though, as solitary war graves, far off the convoy routes, they -should- have minimal value, historically or otherwise.

We do not need an Islamic dominated world with German engineered micro radiofuel or even 'clean' fusion weapons with .15-.75KT yields.

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Postby Tiger B » 14 Sep 2017 07:00

tIn the 1960s, the East Germans considered this significant enough to hold the equivalent of a Coroner's Inquisition and several dozen witnesses in the Ohrdruf area testified. Including one janitor at the facility who was far closer to the detonation aftermath than Clare Werner and helped clear away bodies.

What is interesting is that no one bothered to polygraph or VSA these people, though some were alive as late as the early 2000s. Nor was there any attempt to rediscover/visit the site locations with these witnesses something that would be particularly informative for Mr. Romersa.

Nor any attempt to compare their recollections with what we now know atomic weapons look like.

"Why yes, that IS what it was, an atomic test!" Instead of "A tree in full leaf..."

There is a plethora of this kind of inane reporting with lines of questions that end abruptly and simple followups avoided in favor of 'feelings' counterpoints: "And for several days after we felt a certain fatigue..."

Clare Werner in particular is known to have had a pair of binoculars which Claus Von Stauffenberg (yes, /that/ Von Stauffenberg) left behind when he rushed from the area he had just arrived at, on July 20, 1944. Despite what she said about not being allowed to get any closer than several hundred yards, she should have been able to look at the test stand very closely.

Why didn't anyone commission an artist to draw her recollections of said tower?

If you know the test tower's height, even roughly, from a farm or kubel wagen parked in front of it, you can, looking at the crater (which still exists) to make a good guess as to the yield. From this, it should be possible to guess what kind of pinch or implosion or gun system was being used.

Again, this all points to a simple fact: Rather than defending the ALSOS lie of _Now It Can Be Told_, with an energetic counterargument, the truth is known to include a German first detonation as entry to the atomic club and so the emphasis is ALWAYS on "Let them say what they want to say and then DO NOTHING to question or counter their assertions."

When the response is to do nothing, you know that the assertions are true.

Another path of inquiry which suggests itself is why a 'representative' of the USSR was sitting on a hill, both for the Ohrdruf event and the Trinity test a couple months later. FDR didn't mention the successful test blast to Stalin, but Stalin already knew. HOW did they know to get there? WHAT was the connection, so deep in the German nuclear weapons development effort, that Stalin knew to have a commando or infiltrator there to observe?

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Postby vladalex » 14 Sep 2017 08:09

Today is in fashion the rapid transmission of false news, so is the way the last war is affected in this way. These lies usually hide behind 3 walls, google, wiki, and ... the russian's archives of war not seen by anyone never, but used daily in different forums. In this way start very easy counterfactual histories, and all text's are full with the favourite words , if ... and then ...
This kind of ipothetically facts is subject for poor man educated, sorry for this ...
Regards,
Vladalex

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Postby witcher » 14 Sep 2017 15:04

Shortly after the East opened up, I personally contacted the von Ardenne Institute on subject nuclear atomic/fission/fusion/non-standard; on any work the institute may have performed during ww2. The answer was a flat "none".

But this 'official' answer only adds to the confusion as we know there are public records( biography, purchase orders etc) that indicate work was being performed. We also know AH visited the institute on several occasions.

On the subject of Little Boy being the first n bomb used in wartime, this is a ridiculous- almost Religious belief in consumed propaganda.

One only has to visit the Los Alamos museum, take pics of the hi-res enlarged BW display photos , examine the items with a critical eye and study the wartime budget. None of the official record makes any sense. The one that really defies engineering practice ( even wartime) is to say the the bomb did not require testing.

"We are sure it will work.......testing would be a waste of time".

My sources are not from search engine results. They are from first person contacts and archive records.
But why does it matter anyway? Who cares, we should move on.

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Postby williamjpellas » 27 Sep 2017 01:50

Tiger B:

The Rote Cappell "Red Orchetra" spy ring, which featured Arvid Harnack (yes, of Harnack Haus, the eminent German science and physics institute) and his wife, certainly kept Stalin well informed of German progress, or lack of progress, on nuclear weapons. The Manhattan Project was penetrated, though to a limited extent, by the "TO" (pronounced "toe") international spy operation organized and led by the Spanish Falangist, Angel Alcazar de Velasco. De Velasco's efforts were apparently more successful around the Oak Ridge end of the enterprise than they were at Hanford and Los Alamos in the American West. But the 1943 de Velasco - Japanese spy mission in the Desert Southwest was definitely sniffing around in the right general area (albeit in Arizona and not in New Mexico, where the Los Alamos lab was located).

I have read of Harteck's extremely accurate nuclear fission calculations before but do not have a source. Can you provide any documentation? Thank you in advance.

I have read the Oppenheimer quote before, but it should be noted that it was not J. Robert who said it, but, if I recall correctly, his brother.

I can believe that both German and Japanese physics were considerably more advanced than we have been led to believe by the conventional histories, but they still had before them an immense industrial and engineering task, one greatly complicated by the enormous destruction being rained down on them by strategic bombing raids. That said, there are a number of factors that could have significantly reduced both the size of the task and also the amount of fissile material needed to produce a bomb or bombs.

As for the US bombs being German in toto, I don't believe that. It appears to me from the sources I have read to this point that the Little Boy design actually was the product of Oppenheimer's effort, particularly from his lead designer, Walter Luis Alvarez. However I do think that at least some German uranium powered Little Boy. As for the Fat Man implosion bomb, that certainly had more European input. Whether that included actual bomb fusing captured as part of the cargo of U-234, as alleged by Farrell, is another question.
Last edited by williamjpellas on 27 Sep 2017 23:52, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Postby Tiger B » 27 Sep 2017 08:38

>
Finally, Harteck again must have stunned his British captors
with a remark made near the end of the transcript for August 6,
1945:
HARTECK: The multiplication factor with "235" is 2.8, and when one
collides with the other how long is the path until it happens? 4
centimeters, Rx is the radius. Then you have to multiply that by the
mean free path and divide it by the square root of the multiplication
factor. That should be 3.2. Rx is about 14 centimeters, the weight is
200 kilograms; then it explodes.36
Even Bernstein cannot ignore this, and his comment indicates the
there is a "possible something" lurking behind Harteck's figures:
This apparently off-hand calculation of the critical mass by Harteck
which does lead to a sensible answer, unlike Heisenberg's shows some
evidence that he had done this problem before. It is difficult to believe
that he would have known, for example, that the critical radius
involved the inverse square root of the multiplication factor if he had
not thought about it. How Harteck got the number 2.8 for the
multiplication factor is unclear. During the war the Los Alamos
people, who certainly knew a lot more than he did, used 2.2. Only
after the war was the number increase to 2.52 as the measurements
became better. Perhaps it was Harteck who supplied the German Army
Ordnance report of January 1942 with its numbers in the scientists'
attempts to interest the Army in continuing support of bomb
research.
>

Epsilon Reports, CSDIC. I believe Farrell has the page references in his _ROTBS_.

Harteck knew this because he was a consultant to the SS at Monawitz and Buna 102. He was there. He saw the processes for sublimating and casting Uranium and doing the Ammonia conversion towers for heavy water and likely the MASSIVE gas diffusion plant which was in operation there from no late than 1942, pumping out most of the 'disappeared' Belgian and Czech holdings of Uranium.

As Witcher has suggested, it makes ZERO sense for the Americans to have a gun bomb with ONE HUNDRED THIRTY TWO POUNDS of Uranium when, as late as March 1945, the Uranium materials stockpilist said: "Uhhhh, not before 1946 folks...".

U235 can be used to run hot loads on a PWR breeder and that is what the Hanford site essentially was. Conversely, it makes ZERO sense to transport Uranium Oxide in gold lined containers, either for corrosion or excited fission states. It's just alpha. A cotton sack will do.

OTOH, five hundred sixty kilos of Yellow Cake is also nothing near enough to make a bomb. It's maybe one or two kilograms out of a 10-20kg wad, even for a Plutonium weapon. If you are doing a fast breeder conditioned scenario, you are talking about a six months with a reactor _waiting_ (Kern Haspe, high frequency insulation, boron, zirconium, all from the U-234 lading lists) to get the initial transmutation with the plutonium out and cool enough to chemically separate before trying to use it to breed more. Good luck on that, especially the hafnium poisoning issue with Thorium as your base fuel.

Then consider that-

>
The casing of the 'Little Boy' bomb, according to historians, had been ready since July 1944. Why then did Americans only fly test missions with the so-called 'pumpkin' bomb casings of the later plutonium bomb?

...

According to another American reference work, it was only on 23 July, 1945 that the first empty 'Little Boy' casing was assembled on the island of Tinian and a successful test drop completed.
>
Friedrich, Georg, _Hitler's Miracle Weapons_, Page 76.

You're honestly telling me that they didn't drop any ballasted concrete blivets to verify ballistic characteristcs on the gun bomb? No. Of course you're not. Even with an atomic weapon you want to make CEP so that you can control detonation /height/ which buys you best Mach shock and blast shock overlaps at the hypocenter to get the widest possible damage radial. This, in a program which had already spent 2.5-3 billion dollars to get to a weapon? Nobody was going to go-cheap on range tests because...they only had just the one weapon. Unless they got the weapon from elsewhere.

If they were that short of U235, from internal U235 stocks, they would have been using it pump out Plutonium. Not building gun bombs.

Conversely, if they had 560 kilos of U-235, the Germans had NINE bombs which could be built without any of the complex 'detonators for your birthday, mein fuhrer!' issues with fusing. If they didn't have that, then what they had was U232 or U238 which is indeed useless for making a fissile weapon of any kind, as we understand the limits of supercriticality. The Japanese would have to slow burn it in a container with a berylium radio source for a year and then accept a massive amount of waste slag, getting enough plutonium for maybe a single, small, weapon that way.

And they just didn't have the time.

My bet is that the Germans had ONE city killer and a bunch of baby battlefield nukes, possibly even as Zippermayer accelerated FAEs (high heat from a tritium isomer as spin polarized or metastable hydrogen buys you a bigger bang for the same reason the electronic ignition is better than spark plugs for generating high stroke power in a fuel injected car engine). They couldn't use the city killer because they couldn't get a fast launch platform to deliver the weapon and/or they knew the surviving Allies would dogpile them and wipe the German race from the face of the earth.

So the German Elites Dead Pledged the big bomb as political surety for getting Hitler and Bormann out and setting up the Ratlines for the remainder of the SS/Nazi middle management.

And then they left the weapon, either with Kesselring's 'magic train' (unaffected by Operation Clarion) at Objekt Burg or at nearby Stadtilm, where the Allies were sure to grab it.

The secret of the isomer small nukes they kept for themselves, probably because THOSE has near the payload to carry an 8,000lb weapon (maybe an Emily, if any still survived), they needed small weapons to clear off beachheads and amphibious anchorages with a massive Kamikaze attack.

Interestingly, for the last 50 years, 'a private party' (cough, CIA) has been intent upon chasing down the locations of (war grave) U-Boats that were part of the transport system. Why? Because they were ALSO hauling U-232/238 for an advanced reactor project? Because they had plutonium in mercury paste as a safe transport medium? You look at Dan Gallery's capture of U-505 and the supposed furor it caused over possible news spreading to the German Kriegsmarine that one of their precious Enigmas had been lost. You believe that story. What I believe is that U-505 was a test case in 'can we do it?' for one of the transport subs of which there were NINETEEN in operation between Djakarta and Brest or Kiel (and eleven sunk) in 1944. They got the boat, didn't like what they found and immediately began a maximum effort to grab every German sub leaving Western waters, to the extent that they used other subs to loiter off sailing bases in Germany and Norway to do it (U-864 now entombed in concrete where nobody can get at her but all the mercury vials which formed the supposed hazard also crushed and vented.).

Or what about U-534 which was sunk, as part of another capture effort by a hunter-killer group of Liberators and Sunderlands, found, raised, left to rot in the open air for about seven years, _gutted_ and turned into a 'cutaway'. Do you mean to say that there wasn't a radiosource whose presence hadn't contaminated the keel blocks where it was sourced? Then why haul it up?

ALL THIS. As 'sink and raise up again' covert effort, unacknowledged in the official histories of the U-Boat War. And we're supposed to believe that the Germans didn't have a functional and very highly advanced nuclear project ongoing? Tell me another. Big. Fat. Lie.

This was Hitler's 'Five Minutes Past Midnight' plan. So that, if things went badly for the defeated Reich (Morgenthau plan implemented), the Japanese could make real nuissances of themselves with the Sierans against the West Coast.

'Six hundred feet blast zones at a time'.

Four or five of those and you could empty Ulithi or turn the Panama Canal locks into a thruway.

This is also 'the big deal', in modern terms, as put forth in the Monsanto Report which recommended eternal classification of the Nazi nuke effort.

Because it means that they are using isomer technology to get the heat high enough, instantaneously, to get a small fusion event, using pusher technology and probably a little bit of tickled-tail U-238.

If I am right, this is also why the German atomic bomb effort is being sat upon, SO HARD that literally it is 'unacknowledged', even when the accusations are correct. Because nobody wants cheap battlefield nukes as terror weapons in the hands of the likes of ISIL.

And all because the American physicists, even with their All-Star shortlist of famous names, did not get there. At all. Tried to do things the hard way and failed. By their own admission-

>
'The heavy blow which we struck on Hiroshima and Nagasaki has stopped the world in it's tracks. People think us to be the New Gods who are in possession of this overwhelming power. But in actual fact, we do not possess this power at all and, what is far worse, we refuse to discover it. In May 1948, the first usuable atomic bombs, which were actually of American design, were actually dropped on Enivetok.'

...

However; the American 'Bikini Bomb', only had the effect of 11,000 tons of TNT, as against the 20,000 tons of the captured German bomb. The American scientist Edward Teller said, at the 'birth of the bomb' at Bikini: 'It's a girl...'
>

_Hitler's Miracle Weapons_, Friedrich Georg, Pg. 107.

(Note, according to David Irving, Edward Teller, when jokingly accused of having left the best scientists behind, in Germany, 'according to Heisenberg', responded: "Herr Irving, Das is korrekt.").

Because it works beyond relativism. It is clever and insightful and cheap as easy.

As for the Atomic Spies, the critical one is Alcazar de Velasco. He's the guy who had something so hot, he actually risked a wartime transit through the Azores and Central Africa to get into the Reich through Italy _in June 1943_.

The Americans had a working separation pilot program (the massive use of EM separators as the first Calutrons at Stanford) at that time. And hence it makes ZERO sense for Hitler to wait until 1944 to sign an order authorizing the development of nuclear weapons as a crash effort. Indeed, Hitler was profoundly non-commital to what Alcazar had to say _except_ for 'yes, yes, that is about where we figured they would be...'.

Keep this in mind when you consider Goering's commitment of something like 800 million Reichsmarks to the Buna-102 pilot plant **IN 1941**.

Similarly, it makes zero sense for the German OKW to try and kill Hitler, in July 1944, when it was already known that unconditional surrender was a required outcome of the war. Kill Hitler and the German people's spine goes soft and you see a collapse, similar to WWI.

The only thing that could have been done at the point Valkyrie happened was rubbing the noses of the Allies in the fire of synthetic sunshine. They were on-Continent and could not be pushed back into the sea but a big enough black eye to London or Paris would have made for a very firm incentive to negotiate more reasonably.

IMO, it is likely that this all came out of the _Catholic Church funded_ SS effort in Austria to build a separate bomb there. When the coup failed, these 'Southern' phyicists: Lachner, Dallenbach, Seuffert, Stetter, Grothe, Laue and Haxel (probably Zippermayer too) all terminated of go-slowed their efforts as a way to ensure that a Germany run by Hitler would never get the bomb in time.

Hitler, who knew better than to trust the SS as Himmler, had redundant development pathways, through Ohnesorge and HWA and got the bomb anyway. But only in small-inventory numbers, sufficient to buy back Germany's survival. As the legendary 'U.S. Army Convoy with jeep and loudspeakers taking something BIG from Stadtilm with the announcement that German war guilt had been ammortized' rumors support.

IMO, it is very interesting that the wording of the constant '_Germany_ had no plutonium bomb effort, just a vague reactor program...' story that is the Allied Myth makes no mention whatsoever of the Austrian development sites like Objekt Quarz/Melk and so on which the Russians and Americans actually came to blows over, twice. In a mad rush to get _something_ out from under their nominal 'allies' noses (this was the Soviet equivalent of Patton's hail mary run into Czechoslovakia, the Russians were well past their line of demarcation).

IMO, we're looking at a very much multi-polar interest coming into conflict in the death of Europe's influence as an old school, colonialist, power and the rise of America as a commerce/banking industrial mega-state. And one of the unknown players is the Catholic Church who are, literally, 'as rich as their owned ground' on what was then a global religion, with all their holdings being thrown into disarray by both the German unification of Europe and the Allied/Soviet splitting of it.

Laue's CSDIC interrogation notes were supposed to come due for declassification a couple years back. Did anybody hear anything about that? I thought not.

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williamjpellas
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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Postby williamjpellas » 28 Sep 2017 00:00

The Americans DID fly "pumpkin missions" with Little Boy bomb casings. Just not nearly as many of them as they did with the plutonium pumpkin bombs. The Little Boy dummy bombs were filled with concrete and as far as I know were only used in practice runs over the continental United States. The Fat Man pumpkins were otherwise live weapons, just filled with conventional explosives. In this mode, in fact, they were the largest and most powerful conventional bombs used in the Pacific War.

One of the Fat Man pumpkins might have been captured by the Japanese and then turned over to the Soviets. This could be the source of a longstanding rumor about an alleged third US atomic mission over Japan in which the bomb failed to detonate. Or maybe there really was another Fat Man device and it fell into Japanese, and then Soviet, hands virtually intact. Here is something I wrote on another site that dovetails with some of what we are discussing in this thread:

https://www.quora.com/Did-America-drop- ... ?srid=CPJw

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Postby Tiger B » 28 Sep 2017 05:46

Do you have photos of a loaded Little Boy pumpkin? I do not trust photos of rusted out shells without provenance. Take this as an example-
>
In September 1944, Lt. Col. Paul Tibbets selected Wendover Air Force Base as the training site for the 509th Composite Group, the handpicked B-29 unit that would deliver the Little Boy and Fat Man atomic bombs to the cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The 509th Composite Group was activated on December 17, 1944 and included over 1700 officers and men, including the First Technical Detachment, a team of civilian and military scientists.
In January 1945, Colonel Clifford Heflin assummed command of the 216th Base Unit as the new base commander. In addition to overseeing all activities at Wendover, Heflin also designated two groups within the 216th to assist with the Manhattan Project. Named Project W-47, the Flight Test Section and the Special Ordnance Detachment helped weaponize the atomic bomb by collaborating with Los Alamos scientists to test out prototype bombs in the shape of Little Boy and Fat Man to furnish information on ballistics, electrical fusing and detonators, release mechanisms, and flying characteristics of the aircraft.
Wendover proved to be an excellent place to practice these "pumpkin bomb" drops as they were soon referred to. The unique shape of the atomic bombs required aircrews to learn new bomb drop techniques. Hundreds of practice bombs were dropped from B-29s as engineers from Los Alamos sought to determine the correct weight distribution and shape of the aerodynamically unique bombs. Special pits were also constructed with hydraulic lifts to hoist the huge bombs into the bomb bay. Between October 1944 and August 1945, 155 test units were dropped on targets surrounding the airfield at Wendover.
>

http://www.atomicheritage.org/location/wendover-ut
http://www.atomicheritage.org/sites/def ... 20Bomb.jpg

Well alrighty then. Period 1940s crane truck, yellow and black LB ballistic confirmation test weapon. So they must have had LB shapes before the Germans. Except....

>
However, a problem arose when the ground crew tried to load the first pumpkin bomb into the B-29 bomb bay. Although the bay had been altered to hold a large atomic bomb, at five feet in diameter, the Fat Man facsimile was larger than the clearance between the open bomb bay and the tarmac. So it just would not fit beneath the plane to allow it to be loaded.

Charles Sweeney discussed this issue with the ground crew and the weapons engineer and they finally concluded that the only thing they could do at the moment was raise the nose and slip the bomb under the front of the B-29. A new base at the time, Wendover, really didn't have the cranes needed to lift up the front end of a plane, so the crew threw tarps over each of the rear horizontal stabilizers on the B-29, and put several men (six to eight), pulling down on each tarp. The strength of these men tipped the tail of the B-29 down, which lifted the nose up in the air, providing the clearance for the ground crew to slip the pumpkin below the bomb bay. (The length of the plane pivoted on the main wheels like a seesaw). When they set the nose back down again, they lifted the bomb into the bay and secured it to the aircraft.3, 4

Army engineers found a long term solution to bomb loading by designing and building bomb pits. However, the ground crew had to keep using this tipping method for bomb loading of the B-29s for two months before the bomb pits were completed. Then the crew could lower the bomb into the pit using hydraulics, back the B-29 over the pit, and with the hydraulics, lift the bomb up into the bomb bay. Wendover Air Field ended up with three separate bomb pits. There was another pit built at Tinian, and then a fifth pit was constructed on Iwo Jima for the Hiroshima mission.
>

http://worldwar2headquarters.com/HTML/j ... bombs.html

>
Building The Base
On July 29, 1941, the installation at Wendover became a subpost of Fort Douglas, Salt Lake City, and additional land acquisitions approved by Congress brought the total area of the base to 1,822,000 acres. The total site ranged from 18 to 36 miles wide and 86 miles long and was soon hailed as the largest bombing and gunnery range in the world. Nonetheless, life at Wendover was primitive: the drinking water was bad, infrastructure was limited, rats invaded barracks, and sand managed to find its way into everything.
The first Army unit to be assigned to Wendover moved to the desert post on August 12, 1941 with a detachment of one officer and ten enlisted men. Later that month, another 37 men arrived and started setting up targets on the salt desert for training purposes. The base would remain idle until March 28, 1942, when the Army activated Wendover as a B-17 and B-24 heavy bombardment training base to prepare for World War II.
>

http://www.atomicheritage.org/location/wendover-ut

If the base was so new that they didn't have cranes capable of lifting the nose of the B-29, then that crane _lifting a Little Boy BDU_ cannot be of Wendover in the period described. Conversely, the base was not 'new' in 1945 as it had already served as a site for other large aircraft and was considered the world's largest extant bombing range.

Somebody is lying, twice. And I don't like lies. Makes me suspicious.

WRT the bomb casings themselves, here is what is unusual:

In Friedrich Georg's _Hitler's Miracle Weapons, V1_, on Page 78, there is an image of models of atomic weapon shapes being tested in the Ferdinand Graf Von Zeppelin wind tunnels (their version of NASA Ames/Dryden). One of these looks incredibly akin to Gadget. One looks like Fat Man. And one looks like Little Boy. Shrug, Space Aliens giving both sides the same weapons design?

Yet on March 11, 1943, 'Southern Stuttgart' (Ruit, the home of the FGZ) was heavily bombed and the test center badly damaged. More raids on February 21st and March 2nd (550 bombers each) and then another 800 plane raid, in November (don't know the date), of 1944 all but obliterated the facility. So if they were testing bomb casings in the wind tunnels there, it was not after February 1944.

Why do their bombs look like our bombs, before we were even building bomb casings?

>
Document 45: Memorandum from Major General L. R. Groves to Chief of Staff, July 30, 1945, Top Secret, Sanitized Copy
Source: RG 77, MED Records, Top Secret Documents, File no. 5

With more information on the Alamogordo test available, Groves provided Marshall with more detail on the destructive power of atomic weapons. Barton J. Berstein has observed that Groves’s recommendation that troops could move into the “immediate explosion area” within a half hour demonstrates the prevalent lack of knowledge of the dangers of nuclear weapons effects.[37] Groves also provided the schedule for the delivery of the weapons: the components of the gun-type bomb to be used on Hiroshima had arrived on Tinian, while the parts of the second weapon to be dropped were leaving San Francisco. By the end of November over ten weapons would be available, presumably in the event the war had continued.
>

http://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB162/

Ten Bombs by November means you are either dumping a lot of hot-fuel in the Hanford plutonium effort. Or those '560 kilos of Uranium Oxide' are in fact 560 kilos of U235, just like the Japanese military officers wrote on the little tags which U-234 second officer Pfaff saw them doing in Kiel.

So... Sixty kilos in the Little Boy = 9.3 bombs. 560 kilos of Yellow Cake doesn't. It's a drop in the bucket for a single bomb. So it wasn't U238. Because the Japanese needed TONS of U238 for a viable weapon, unless they had a reactor (and cool down time, even then).

EITHER WAY, the statement stands that there was ONE gun bomb on Tinian but components for more implosion weapons, including the first _U235 implosion designs_ were on the way. The Fat Man casings were likely needed for the U235 implosion weapon as well.

Read this- http://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB162/45.pdf

Thoroughly. I cannot cut and paste the required text at the end of the first page but it breaks down the types and the methods being used, including the provision of enhanced yield devices and hybrid Pu239/U235 weapons as well as an interesting assertion that the existing stockpile could be 'upgraded' to a higher yield without much delay whereas it presently represented 'two big and one lesser' yielded weapons, in the pipeline.

Here is what is happening: From U-234 and Heinz Schlicke, we have a new fusing method (better detonation efficiencies) and likely the provision of the first knowledge of boosted weapons such as the German tacticals included to keep weapon mass and casing size down. Using Tritium and/or LD6 to enhance the neutron flux counts during what would otherwise be a high function fizzle.

This would allow for higher yields with relatively little change in the weapon design, simply because you could drill holes in the wad and place insulated pockets of booster. Just as Luis Alvarez did with Gadget.

Again, there was ONE gun bomb in inventory, with no discussion of followon gun bomb deliveries through November 1946, for the simple reason that that Gun weapon, which yielded out to 17-21KT, matching Fat Man, did so due to the sheer amount of U235 employed, even though only about 12% went RCR.

The Germans had a simple weapon which they held onto as a political Dead Pledge and that bomb, in it's entirety, became the Little Boy.

Had this not been the case, the U.S. effort, which was short of weapon fuel, would have never put that much U235 into Little Boy to begin with. And would have stripped a German weapon of it's fuel, to hot load the Hanford breeder pile and made Plutonium around the clock. Instead, they got BOTH a working bomb and 560 kilos of U235 which the Germans couldn't use because they had no fast, high payload, bomber capable of delivering same against well defended targets like London or Moscow.

The Americans didn't resort to such scavenging because they did not have (by May 1945) they had Schlicke's German Solution for IR based implosion detonators or boosting (or both) to get the neutron flux counts high enough to make plutonium implosion work before the bomb blew itself to pieces.

It is thus interesting that not only did the arrival of U-234 preface the sudden availability of fuel (keeping in mind, you have to let Plutonium laced fuel rods 'cool' for about six months before you can chemically extract it) but also of all these new alternatives for strong/weak yields and hybrid warheads. Indicating someone had gained knowledge of boosting that the Germans, 'not having a serious atombombe program' had had to come up with on their own, after those good Catholic Boys, as the Austrian scientists, basically pulled out and/or sabotaged the SS program in Austria.

A gun bomb is simple to fuse, it just takes a lot of fuel to get useful yields. Plutonium cannot be because it will dissemble using simple projectile/target collision and MUST use implosion (explosives on both sides of the wad) instead. This introduces timing problems to ensure the explosives detonate precisely together.

The Germans, with their huge leads in molecular chemistry, could afford a gun weapon as they did better work separating U235 from U238 than is commonly acknowledged. Von Ardenne's betatron with capture tank was 20% more efficient than the best Calutrons we had running.

And this happened, not least, because Goering FUNDED IGF ALMOST A YEAR SOONER (1941) to whatever method (gas diffusion) was underway at Buna 102 in Monawitz. As Paul Harteck's comments on what he saw there as an SS 'consultant' strongly imply that the 800 million Reichsmark facility was the German Oakridge equivalent.

None of which changes the fact that we dropped a German bomb on a Japanese city filled with civilians who didn't have to die when even the scholars are divided on whether it was the bombs or the Soviet invasion of Manchuria which finally scared the Emperor into surrendering.

See, the Japanese faced the same problem Churchill feared with the U-Boat menace: total lockdown as embargoed blockade of all sea transported strategic resources (oil, bauxite and manpower). Something like 3-4 million Japanese soldiers were in stuck in China as an occupational army because they simply could not walk upon the sub infested waters to get home.

But the U.S. fleets were not exclusively submarines but also included large carrier battle groups. Which means that their tactical aircraft could also venture, far and wide, inland to drop bridges and poison food crops. Preventing growth and distribution of food, turning the screws on the pressure.

But not killing 110,000 people in a single week and 200,000 in the next decade.

The most common, facile, arguments that are now used:

1. The Japanese 'to the last man!' defenses of Okinawa and Iwo Jima scared us off a conventional Olympic/Coronet invasion.
2. We wanted to 'impress' the Russians.
3. We were facing political investigation of a 3 billion dollar weapons program fraud at home.
4. That we had a new kill toy and were aching to play with it.

Thus all become meaningless. And immoral. When you realize the atom bomb was not even of our design or making. It was German. Given what we were finding in the ruins of the Reich.

Given that the Japanese were GOING NOWHERE, flatbacked and trapped in their islands like 'The Prisoner'.

Given these were civilian, non combatant, targets who could neither defend themselves nor were responsible for Pearl Harbor, as an attack on a miliary installation; there was absolutely no excuse for what was done on August 6/9, 1945.

None.

And that is why it is so critically important, to peel back the lies of the Allied Myth. For not only will it redeem the German people as being unwilling to do what we did, with truly desperate need (giant Norwegian airfields, converted He-177B bombers, The New York Mission as a one way V4 trip).

But also that, in revealing the true provenance of the U.S. atomic arsenal, we will be forced to look into a very dark part of our souls and see that WE HAD WON ANYWAY. We did not need to use atomic weapons, for any reason, against another human population. We still don't. But as atomics become easier, a lot of supposed threat countries are going to start looking at nukes as viable ways to keep from being mauled by U.S. conventional forces.

And that's a road of Atomic A2AD we cannot afford to go down because of the realities of Middle Eastern religious oil politics (Iran) and globalist economics (Beijing is only 500nm from Pyongyang).


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