AA fire director Id

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Sturm78
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Re: AA fire director Id

Post by Sturm78 » 23 Sep 2020 20:18

Ger wrote
About #92:
Looks like a KDO 40 with some extra modules attached.
Purpose unknown: Some kind of camera's for calibration of traing purposes?
See attached pictures
Grzesio wrote
These are cameras used for training, they were recording various parametres calculated by the director.
ayovtshev wrote
The KdoGer 40, eqiped with cameras, is prepared for evaluation of crew training.

All cameras were triggered by pressing the Start button on the KdoGer, in addition 2 cinetheodolites with exactly measured base were used for the evaluation.
Once camera films were developed and data recorded on the films was drawn on an evaluation paper, it was possible to determine the quality of firing data obtained by the crew of the KdoGer. 40.

This method made shooting the real Flaks on a target drone obsolete and allowed for very precize evaluation of crew training.

Source-Die Geschuetze,Ortungs- und Feuerleitgeraete der schweren Flak by Werner Mueller
Thanks to all for your help

Regards
Sturm78

Sturm78
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Re: AA fire director Id

Post by Sturm78 » 23 Sep 2020 20:24

Ger wrote
Post #26 shows a WIKOG 9 SH.

Pictures are taken in Argentina, source:
https://www.zona-militar.com/foros/thre ... 492/page-2

The rangefinder on the WIKOG probably is a 4m Nedinsco.
The same type of rangefinder is present on a number of Hazemeyer predictors (see #97, note the handles)
Nedinsco (a Carl-Zeiss subsidiary) had a factory in Venlo, The Netherlands.
But it is possible that the the WIKOG 9 SH predictors were manufactured elsewhere
Thanks fou your help, Ger
Very intersting images and link...

Do you have more information about the WIKOG 9 SH director ?
When was developed? For which weapon system ?

It seems that the WIKOG 9 SH was bought by Argentina and Brazil, at least for the 8.8cm Flak guns but the Germans had his Kdo.Ger.36 director for this gun. Why these countries bought the WIKOG 9 SH instead the Kdo.Ger.36 ? :?

Sturm78

ayovtshev
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Re: AA fire director Id

Post by ayovtshev » 26 Sep 2020 09:46

Hi Sturm,

Info about WIKOG 9 SH Kommandogeraet is quite sparse.
What I've been able to find sofar is:
-produced by Zeiss-Ikon AG, Dresden;
-developed by the Estonian engineer Karl Pappelo;
-operating crew of 4 servicemen;
-Dienstvorschrift(Luftwaffe) printed in 1941, so probable year of introduction is late 1940/early 1941;
-it could be used with various heavy FlaK guns, including the rare 7.5 cm FlaK L/59 of Rheinmetal.This is the case with Bulgaria- in January 1941 my country received 20 of those 7.5 cm FlaK L/59 guns and they came with 5 WIKOG 9 SH Kommandogeraete.

A bit off topic:
The 7.5 cm FlaK L/59 of Rheinmetal was never accepted for service by the German Army, but in 1930 its blueprints-together with 2 sample guns- were sold to Soviet Russia(where, rechambered to 76.2 mm and reworked by the Russians, it entered use with the Red Army as the 76.2 mm AAG m.1931(3-K), later developed to 76.2 mm AAG m.1938, from which the Soviet 85 mm. AAG m.1939(52-K) was born), while the other 20 guns( total production-22 pieces) were sold to Bulgaria.

HTH,
Cheers,
Angel

Sturm78
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Re: AA fire director Id

Post by Sturm78 » 27 Sep 2020 10:58

Hi Angel,

Thanks for your information
About the year of introduction of WIKOG 9SH, Argentina and Brazil bought this fire director in 1938 for their 8.8cm Flak 18 guns, so that must be this year or earlier....

On the other hand, Do you have any wartime image of the 7.5 cm FlaK L/59 of Rheinmetall ??

Regards
Sturm78

ayovtshev
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Re: AA fire director Id

Post by ayovtshev » 27 Sep 2020 13:08

Hi Sturm,

You are right- production start of WIKOG 9SH must be 1938 or earlier:
- The year of Dienstvorschrift printing might only be refference for when a particular equipment was accepted for service with the German Armed Forces.
- I don't know what is the case with Argentine and Brazil, but up to 1939 my country procured the war materials it needed directly from the German producers- like the 1936 procurement of 20 8.8 cm Flak 18 from Krupp/Essen( they were coupled with the procurement of 5 Kommandogeräte „Pschorr”27 from Zeiss).The involvement of German state authorities in these and following deals was limited to the financing part only(via longterm state loans).

I don't have any wartime images of 7.5 cm FlaK L/59 of Rheinmetall, besides these 2, coming obviously from a Manual:
Flak_75mm_rheinmetall_l59.jpg
HTH
Cheers,
Angel
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Grzesio
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Re: AA fire director Id

Post by Grzesio » 28 Sep 2020 09:18

A funny thing, a picture of the Wikog (which stands for Winkel-Kommado-Geraet as I think) was shown in a German textbook for Flak NCOs (or Flak artilerymen, I can't remember), published before the war or early in the war... Maybe I'll manage to find the picture.

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Re: AA fire director Id

Post by ayovtshev » 02 Oct 2020 19:35

Thanks for your input Grzecio!
It would be great if you find and upload the picture you mentioned!

WIKOG is abbreviated from Winkel-Kommando-Gerät, Zeiss produced also the MIWIKOG(Mini-Winkel-Kommando-Gerät).

I came across a Russian source(http://www.raspletin.com/press-centre/n ... /03_15.pdf), stating that shortly before Barbarossa(22.06.1941) the Soviets managed to purchase a WIKOG 9SH from Argentina :o :lol:
They evaluated it and intended to use some of its features for the successor of PUAZO-3, but the war put a sharp end to the project.
The source also states that the Manual of said device is on display at NIEMI's Museum in Moscow(NIEMI is the developer of modern Russian AA defense systems like the S-300)

Estonia was also among WIKOG 9 SH users, the country received at least one set in 1940- shortly before its annexation by the Soviet Union.
The device was transferred to the Red Army. It might be the same WIKOG 9 SH unit, known to have been used in the air defense of Moscow during the 1941 Battle for Moscow(Operation Taifun).

Cheers,
Angel

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Eax-E
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Re: AA fire director Id

Post by Eax-E » 05 Oct 2020 20:12

Sturm78 wrote:
26 Jul 2019 17:54
Hi all,

An image from Ebay: I think a Kdo.Ger.41/L. It is a pity that the soldiers hide the fire director...

Sturm78
Hello,

I think it's a Dreiwag ;)

Best regards

Sturm78
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Re: AA fire director Id

Post by Sturm78 » 05 Oct 2020 22:22

Eax-E wrote
I think it's a Dreiwag
Thanks, Eax-E. Do you have any infotrmation about this fire director ?
I think it is associated to the Kriegsmarine coastal AA batteries.
Is Dreiwag his official designation ? :?
Manufacturer ?

Sturm78

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Re: AA fire director Id

Post by factfndr54 » 14 Oct 2020 11:39

See viewtopic.php?t=147645
Post #12, by Janef:

This is a Dreiwag with a 6 meter rangefinder.
The Dreiwag (lit. Dreiwalzengerät) system was delivered by "Askania" and "Hagenuk",
whilst the competing "Kleinkog" (lit. Klein-Kommandogerät) was a Zeiss product.
The Dreiwag also came as Dreiwag Küste Schwer with an armoured cupola.

Sturm78
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Re: AA fire director Id

Post by Sturm78 » 15 Oct 2020 13:48

factfndr54 wrote
See viewtopic.php?t=147645
Post #12, by Janef:

This is a Dreiwag with a 6 meter rangefinder.
The Dreiwag (lit. Dreiwalzengerät) system was delivered by "Askania" and "Hagenuk",
whilst the competing "Kleinkog" (lit. Klein-Kommandogerät) was a Zeiss product.
The Dreiwag also came as Dreiwag Küste Schwer with an armoured cupola./quote]

Ooppsss...I missed this information.

These designations are curious. They do not follow the same format as the Luftwaffe fire directors that had the designation: Kdo.Ger.xx

I believe that the Dreiwag was associated with the AA batteries of the Kriegsmarine so I suppose they followed another method in their designation...
Any image of the Kleinkog ??

Sturm78

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Eax-E
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Re: AA fire director Id

Post by Eax-E » 15 Oct 2020 18:48

Hello,

The kleingog was also used in KM's AA batteries. Both follow similar methods and goals. I suffer from lack of documentation about these two items, I know some M.Dv should exist but I haven't found them so far.

Here is a Kleinkog. It looks not far from a heavier version of Kdo-Hilfsgerät 35.
Kleinkog C5.JPG
"Dreiwag" is not the complete denomination but the word is used in german manuals.
Dreiwag Kleinkog.JPG
Best regards
Arthur
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Sturm78
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Re: AA fire director Id

Post by Sturm78 » 20 Oct 2020 21:12

Arthur wrote
The kleingog was also used in KM's AA batteries. Both follow similar methods and goals. I suffer from lack of documentation about these two items, I know some M.Dv should exist but I haven't found them so far.

Here is a Kleinkog. It looks not far from a heavier version of Kdo-Hilfsgerät 35.
Thanks for your answer, Arthur.
Yes, it seems that the Kleinkog have similarities with the Kdo.Ger.35...

Regards
Sturm78

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