Dear friends,
Can you tell how the German IR system was working, if it was effective (I read somewhere that it was used with a great efficency sometime in early -45, is that true?), and how far did they develope the system before the wars end, to wich equipment was it design to work with etc?
Somewhere I also read that the American invented "stealth", wasn't the Germans a wee bit ahead with their Horten flying wing?
I might be wrong, but it looks like that they were on to something.
All the best.
IR equipment and Stealth.
Try this link and the link within it that refers to an earlier thread.
http://www.thirdreichforum.com/phpBB2/v ... hp?t=14115
Andy
http://www.thirdreichforum.com/phpBB2/v ... hp?t=14115
Andy
-
Christian Ankerstjerne
- Forum Staff
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As for how IR is working, it is using the prinsible that infra-red light isn't visible to the human eye. Therefore, it is possible to use a projector that is spreading infra-red light to light up an area, and then use special binoculars to transform the lighting into a picture viewable to the eye.
I can imagine that this would also work with ultra-violet light, but this is impractical, as it will make you blind if you stare into it (friendly fire wouldn't be visible, and therefore could be more dangerous).
Christian
I can imagine that this would also work with ultra-violet light, but this is impractical, as it will make you blind if you stare into it (friendly fire wouldn't be visible, and therefore could be more dangerous).
Christian
-
Paul Hanson
- Member
- Posts: 193
- Joined: 04 Apr 2002, 03:28
- Location: Lake St. Louis, Missouri
I/R Panthers - long post
Just for general information on I/R usage by the Germans; here are a couple of posts by Kamen Nevenkin and Mirko Bayerl from feldgrau.com:
Paul's statement, that no Panther with IR equipment
was ever used against the Allies, is correct. I whant
to apologize for the posting of incorrect information.
When I wrote my message I used only my memory. I checked
some files in my archive(various files of GenInspdPzTr
and OrgAbt/GenStbH) and now I'll try to "enlight" this
topic(IR Panthers).
An document issued by GenInspdPzTr on 26.6.44 states that,
according to Guderian orders, I./PzLehrR 130 will be the
first unit equiped with IR-PzV. This unit was created on
29.7.44,but was sent to the front(Western) without IR devices.
In the beginning of Oct'44 I./130 was sent back to the rear
(Fallingbostel training ground). Between 19.10 and 22.10.44
a total of 56 "simple" PzV(w/o IR) were recieved by this unit.
On 27.9.44 it was ordered to send I./PzR 6 (tactically subordinated
to PzLehrDiv) to Fallingbostel training ground for rebuilding.
Between 29.10 and 4.11.44 a total of 33 "simple"
PzV(w/o IR) were recieved by this unit.
On 7.11.44 I./130 was renamed in I./6 and vice versa.
On 29.8.44 it was orderd to send I./PzR 11(tactically subordinated
to 8.PzD) to Grafenwoenr training ground for
rebuilding. Between 22.10 and 27.10.44 a total of 28 "simple"
PzV (w/o IR) were recieved by this unit.
On 4.11.44 an subordination of 4./PzR 11 to newly formed PzBr 150
was ordered.
A toatal of 27 IR-PzV's were shipped from HZa to I./6 between
17.11 and 4.12.44
A toatal of 32 IR-PzV's were shipped from HZa to I./11 between
11.11 and 2.12.44
4 IR PzV's were shipped from HZa to I./130 on 9.12.44
All these units saw action in Hungary during Dec'44. The area
between lakes Balaton and Velence was, probably, the first
battleground where IR-PzV's were used.
On 5.1.45 it was ordered to send I./130 back to its parent division.
All available Panthers were left behind.
On 11.1.45 it was ordered to send I./24 to Hungary. This Abt was
tactically subordinated to 1.PzD. It was to be shipped from
Grafenwoenr training ground with 14 "simple" PzV. Another 46 "simple"
PzV's were to recieved during the transportation. However, according
to the records of GenInspdPzTr show that between 17.1 and 25.1.45 a
total of 50 "simple" PzV (w/o IR) were recieved by this unit. Probably
the remaining 10 PzV's were IR-PzV's(or some of them) left behind by
other units.
On 12.2.45 it was ordered one Kp of Fuehrer-Grenadier Division(1./101)
to be equiped with 10 IR-PzV's and 3 SdKfz 251/20. However, this order
was never materialized.
10 IR PzV's were recieved by 3./6 on 7.3.45. Right after that this Kp
was sent to its parent division(3.PzD)
On 13.3.45 it was ordered one Kp of 19.PzD and 26.PzD(4./27 and 3./26)
to be equiped with 10 IR-PzV's and 3 SdKfz 251/20 each.
On 16.3.45 it was ordered one PzKp of I./29 and one PzGrKp(of PzGR 25)
to be equiped with IR machines.
On 23.3.45 it was ordered one Kp of I./130, I./PzR "Brandenburg" and
KGr "Dreyer"(4./PzR 11) to be equiped with 10 IR-PzV's and 3 SdKfz
251/20 each.
On 23.3.45 10 IR-PzV's were shipped from HZa to the Kp of I./130 which
was mentioned above. Soon after that this Kp was shipped from Wuensdorf
training ground to Muencheberg area where it was tactically subordinated
to 25.PzGD.
On 1.4.45 1./29 and 2./PzGrR 25 was located in Wuensdorf training ground,
and 4./27, 3./26, 4./11 and 4./"Br" - in Fallingbostel training ground.
The same document states that a Kp of I./39 was sent from its parent
division(17.PzD) to Fallingbostel to be equiped with IR-PzV's.
10 IR PzV's were shipped from HZa to I./29 on 5.4.45.
10 IR PzV's were shipped from HZa to 4./11 on 8.4.45.
On 19.4.45 the personal of 3./26 was shipped to PzD "Muencheberg",
the personal of 4./27 - back to 19.PzD and the personal of 4./"Br"
- back to PzGD "Kurmark".
On 19.4.45 it was ordered 4./11 alongside with PzGKp "Uelzen"(equiped
with SPW's with IR) to be shipped from Wuensdorf training ground to
7.PzD in Neusterlitz area. However, this order was chaged twice and
on 22.4.45 both Kp were attached to KGr "Ritter" in Zossen area.
Have a nice day,
Kamen
Hi Guys,
Kamens post is in general correct - but some of the units never recieved IR Panthers. Units that really saw combat with IR Panthers was a Versuchs unit under command of a Haas ( ca 4-5 Panthers) . It was in Hungary Dec-Jan 44-45. Otherwise during the Winter they cancelled the operations with IR device becauce of the snow which made the IR "Blind"
Later the 1./29 (Rasim) saw combat at Seelow heights 4. /11 southeast of Berlin and finally the 1/130 in area Berlin. Reports says (perhaps) that a couple of vehicles of 1/BR (staff) saw action with the IR.
Small groups was tested as well but without Panthers. Some crews saw a "lehrgang" but (ex Pz.Rgt 27) saw never action with the Panthers.
The 3./6 recieved its Panther and was transported to Hungary in March 45 but saw never action - as they were afraid it would fall in the advancing russian hands. The crew had one problem and it was to identify foe or friend throug the device - it was like looking on a old movie and you could not see if it was a T-34 or a Panther. Thats why they "hold" fire many times. On each IR Panther it was 2-3 Soldiers that was guarded the Tank armed with IR MP 44. They were also guarded on the back by a steel plate.
( I cant post pictures - but if you go to www. missing -links you will see a Panther from 1./29 based on facts .Interwievs with Vets etc).
Well just a short reply...
Well concerning the units I/130...I/24...I/11 is correct they rushed to Hungary in Dec.44 but without any IR equippment -one Comp of I/130 (1:st) stayed in Germany as a base for the later I/130 and continiud training with IR.
The main reason they did not use the IR in Dec - Feb 44-45 was two reasons...the equippment was not reliable enough and as i said they did not used IR during the winter and snow. Just a short history - over and out
regards Mirko
Hope this of interest,
PH
Paul's statement, that no Panther with IR equipment
was ever used against the Allies, is correct. I whant
to apologize for the posting of incorrect information.
When I wrote my message I used only my memory. I checked
some files in my archive(various files of GenInspdPzTr
and OrgAbt/GenStbH) and now I'll try to "enlight" this
topic(IR Panthers).
An document issued by GenInspdPzTr on 26.6.44 states that,
according to Guderian orders, I./PzLehrR 130 will be the
first unit equiped with IR-PzV. This unit was created on
29.7.44,but was sent to the front(Western) without IR devices.
In the beginning of Oct'44 I./130 was sent back to the rear
(Fallingbostel training ground). Between 19.10 and 22.10.44
a total of 56 "simple" PzV(w/o IR) were recieved by this unit.
On 27.9.44 it was ordered to send I./PzR 6 (tactically subordinated
to PzLehrDiv) to Fallingbostel training ground for rebuilding.
Between 29.10 and 4.11.44 a total of 33 "simple"
PzV(w/o IR) were recieved by this unit.
On 7.11.44 I./130 was renamed in I./6 and vice versa.
On 29.8.44 it was orderd to send I./PzR 11(tactically subordinated
to 8.PzD) to Grafenwoenr training ground for
rebuilding. Between 22.10 and 27.10.44 a total of 28 "simple"
PzV (w/o IR) were recieved by this unit.
On 4.11.44 an subordination of 4./PzR 11 to newly formed PzBr 150
was ordered.
A toatal of 27 IR-PzV's were shipped from HZa to I./6 between
17.11 and 4.12.44
A toatal of 32 IR-PzV's were shipped from HZa to I./11 between
11.11 and 2.12.44
4 IR PzV's were shipped from HZa to I./130 on 9.12.44
All these units saw action in Hungary during Dec'44. The area
between lakes Balaton and Velence was, probably, the first
battleground where IR-PzV's were used.
On 5.1.45 it was ordered to send I./130 back to its parent division.
All available Panthers were left behind.
On 11.1.45 it was ordered to send I./24 to Hungary. This Abt was
tactically subordinated to 1.PzD. It was to be shipped from
Grafenwoenr training ground with 14 "simple" PzV. Another 46 "simple"
PzV's were to recieved during the transportation. However, according
to the records of GenInspdPzTr show that between 17.1 and 25.1.45 a
total of 50 "simple" PzV (w/o IR) were recieved by this unit. Probably
the remaining 10 PzV's were IR-PzV's(or some of them) left behind by
other units.
On 12.2.45 it was ordered one Kp of Fuehrer-Grenadier Division(1./101)
to be equiped with 10 IR-PzV's and 3 SdKfz 251/20. However, this order
was never materialized.
10 IR PzV's were recieved by 3./6 on 7.3.45. Right after that this Kp
was sent to its parent division(3.PzD)
On 13.3.45 it was ordered one Kp of 19.PzD and 26.PzD(4./27 and 3./26)
to be equiped with 10 IR-PzV's and 3 SdKfz 251/20 each.
On 16.3.45 it was ordered one PzKp of I./29 and one PzGrKp(of PzGR 25)
to be equiped with IR machines.
On 23.3.45 it was ordered one Kp of I./130, I./PzR "Brandenburg" and
KGr "Dreyer"(4./PzR 11) to be equiped with 10 IR-PzV's and 3 SdKfz
251/20 each.
On 23.3.45 10 IR-PzV's were shipped from HZa to the Kp of I./130 which
was mentioned above. Soon after that this Kp was shipped from Wuensdorf
training ground to Muencheberg area where it was tactically subordinated
to 25.PzGD.
On 1.4.45 1./29 and 2./PzGrR 25 was located in Wuensdorf training ground,
and 4./27, 3./26, 4./11 and 4./"Br" - in Fallingbostel training ground.
The same document states that a Kp of I./39 was sent from its parent
division(17.PzD) to Fallingbostel to be equiped with IR-PzV's.
10 IR PzV's were shipped from HZa to I./29 on 5.4.45.
10 IR PzV's were shipped from HZa to 4./11 on 8.4.45.
On 19.4.45 the personal of 3./26 was shipped to PzD "Muencheberg",
the personal of 4./27 - back to 19.PzD and the personal of 4./"Br"
- back to PzGD "Kurmark".
On 19.4.45 it was ordered 4./11 alongside with PzGKp "Uelzen"(equiped
with SPW's with IR) to be shipped from Wuensdorf training ground to
7.PzD in Neusterlitz area. However, this order was chaged twice and
on 22.4.45 both Kp were attached to KGr "Ritter" in Zossen area.
Have a nice day,
Kamen
Hi Guys,
Kamens post is in general correct - but some of the units never recieved IR Panthers. Units that really saw combat with IR Panthers was a Versuchs unit under command of a Haas ( ca 4-5 Panthers) . It was in Hungary Dec-Jan 44-45. Otherwise during the Winter they cancelled the operations with IR device becauce of the snow which made the IR "Blind"
Later the 1./29 (Rasim) saw combat at Seelow heights 4. /11 southeast of Berlin and finally the 1/130 in area Berlin. Reports says (perhaps) that a couple of vehicles of 1/BR (staff) saw action with the IR.
Small groups was tested as well but without Panthers. Some crews saw a "lehrgang" but (ex Pz.Rgt 27) saw never action with the Panthers.
The 3./6 recieved its Panther and was transported to Hungary in March 45 but saw never action - as they were afraid it would fall in the advancing russian hands. The crew had one problem and it was to identify foe or friend throug the device - it was like looking on a old movie and you could not see if it was a T-34 or a Panther. Thats why they "hold" fire many times. On each IR Panther it was 2-3 Soldiers that was guarded the Tank armed with IR MP 44. They were also guarded on the back by a steel plate.
( I cant post pictures - but if you go to www. missing -links you will see a Panther from 1./29 based on facts .Interwievs with Vets etc).
Well just a short reply...
Well concerning the units I/130...I/24...I/11 is correct they rushed to Hungary in Dec.44 but without any IR equippment -one Comp of I/130 (1:st) stayed in Germany as a base for the later I/130 and continiud training with IR.
The main reason they did not use the IR in Dec - Feb 44-45 was two reasons...the equippment was not reliable enough and as i said they did not used IR during the winter and snow. Just a short history - over and out
regards Mirko
Hope this of interest,
PH