How did german equipment do in the russian winter?
"Kaltstart" method was developed already in the 1930's.
It is true that German artificial rubber called "Buna" was not quite coldproof. They had problems also with washers. For sure Germans didn't have weapon oils which wouldn't freeze in very cold weather. That is one reason Germans had to fire so called "nickel protection" to ensure their weapons are still working when really needed (another explanation may be that gunners wanted to keep their hands warm...).
Cold weather had also another kind of effects: there were more barrel explosions and the accuracy of long range artillery fire was worse (cold effected both to ammunition and barrel). No surprise Germans had separate summer and winter rockets also for Panzerschreck. Summer rocket was to be used only if temperature was +5 or more (IIRC).
During Winter War Finnish Air Forces used the compound of graphite and alcohol for aircraft MGs. It prevented jams effectively but not completely. I don't know if Germans had anything alike.
It is true that German artificial rubber called "Buna" was not quite coldproof. They had problems also with washers. For sure Germans didn't have weapon oils which wouldn't freeze in very cold weather. That is one reason Germans had to fire so called "nickel protection" to ensure their weapons are still working when really needed (another explanation may be that gunners wanted to keep their hands warm...).
Cold weather had also another kind of effects: there were more barrel explosions and the accuracy of long range artillery fire was worse (cold effected both to ammunition and barrel). No surprise Germans had separate summer and winter rockets also for Panzerschreck. Summer rocket was to be used only if temperature was +5 or more (IIRC).
During Winter War Finnish Air Forces used the compound of graphite and alcohol for aircraft MGs. It prevented jams effectively but not completely. I don't know if Germans had anything alike.
Re: hmm
Sorry to disagree.Christoph Awender wrote:hmm In winter 1941 there were no T-34 available. So we would have to talk about the other types like T-26 etc...Witch-King of Angmar wrote: To start with, Soviet T-34 and KV-1 tanks had Diesel engines.. which are a pain in the ass to start in sub-zero temperatures.
And for me it is really hard to believe that the russians had major problems with their equipment in winter but I am open to corrections. Of course I understand that there were problems at these record low temperatures like 30-40 minus but I guess their tanks and vehicles worked much longer than their german counterparts.
\Christoph
A Werhmacht expert should know that Guderian had its ass kicked near Tula by T34s.
Second , as strange as it can be diesel engine works better at low temperatures.
The problem with petrol was that you need it to evaporate in the carburetor.At -35 that doesn't happen.So you need to heat up the engine seriously.
A diesel engine injects the fuel at extremly high pressure so even if it is a gel it still works.
Second , if memory serves russian V2 engines had a pre-heater or something like that.
Do we have some engine experts here to enlighten us??
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I agree that carburetor is the weak point in gasoline/petrol vehicles. There is always water in the fuel and it freezes easily in carburetor even if the temperature is well over 0 C. Alcohol is added to gas/petrol to prevent that water freezing at mild temperatures (+5 to -10 C). If the temperature is colder separate water freezes in fuel tanks and don't do any harm, until the temperature rises again: then there will be serious problems if alcohol was not used. Engines with fuel injection can do better in cold conditions and are easier to start.
Also pneumatic devices tend to freeze in cold. For example almost the whole 6.Pz.D was in troubles with its technically complicated PzKw 35(t) tanks near Leningrad in early winter 1941 when their pneumatic gear boxes and pneumatic systems froze. That was the main reason for their early retirement in winter 1942.
Many aircraft used too pneumatic and hydraulic devices but they could handle the freezing problem better. For example aircraft MGs were loaded using pressurized air but also mechanically or electrically. Aircraft used bottled compressed air but PzKw 35(t) had compressors.
One not yet mentioned trouble is freezing of optical gear like sights and range finders. These very complicated usually mechanically used devices were among the first equipment to freeze and stop working in cold. Just one point why Finnish sniper Simo Häyhä didn't use optical sights during Winter War...
Also pneumatic devices tend to freeze in cold. For example almost the whole 6.Pz.D was in troubles with its technically complicated PzKw 35(t) tanks near Leningrad in early winter 1941 when their pneumatic gear boxes and pneumatic systems froze. That was the main reason for their early retirement in winter 1942.
Many aircraft used too pneumatic and hydraulic devices but they could handle the freezing problem better. For example aircraft MGs were loaded using pressurized air but also mechanically or electrically. Aircraft used bottled compressed air but PzKw 35(t) had compressors.
One not yet mentioned trouble is freezing of optical gear like sights and range finders. These very complicated usually mechanically used devices were among the first equipment to freeze and stop working in cold. Just one point why Finnish sniper Simo Häyhä didn't use optical sights during Winter War...
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Re: hmm
You are right I stand corrected... so forget the expert.savantu wrote:A Werhmacht expert should know that Guderian had its ass kicked near Tula by T34s.
Regarding the petroleum... that is what the diary of the 4.Pz.Div. says.
Thanks for the interesting link Juha.
\Christoph
Thanks.Juha Tompuri wrote:Savantu,
here´s something: http://www.guns.connect.fi/gow/T34tank1.html
Regards, Juha
"Let us simply consider the ideal situation where the weather is warm enough that the engine requires no pre-heating with fuel heater, blow torch or diesel-soaked, burning rags. "
Is there a fuel heater on the T34??
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You can run a diesl engine a long time, they don't use nearly as much fuel as a gasoline motor when idling. A hot motor like this will heat up a tank and it's fuel, maybe not enough to keep the crew warm but hot enough to keep the tank operable. A diesel engine stays "happy" as long as its running.
The Germans could not do this with their gasoline tanks so they got cold,
so cold they would freeze to the ground and could not move or fire.
Generally the Finns are best at winter fighting, and the Russians were better than the Germans, it all becomes a question of how the people in any particular army are "acclimatized" to cold, this goes a long way towards explaining "secondary" problems like vehicle maintenance in very cold conditions.
The Germans could not do this with their gasoline tanks so they got cold,
so cold they would freeze to the ground and could not move or fire.
Generally the Finns are best at winter fighting, and the Russians were better than the Germans, it all becomes a question of how the people in any particular army are "acclimatized" to cold, this goes a long way towards explaining "secondary" problems like vehicle maintenance in very cold conditions.
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Re: hmm
Ever tried to start a Diesel with worn piston rings at -20 Celsius?savantu wrote:Second , as strange as it can be diesel engine works better at low temperatures.
Well, it must be pretty damn obvious why a gasoline engine either has the intake manifold intertwined with the hot exhaust one(the "saxophone"), or a thin exhaust tube wrapped or soldered on the intake manifoldsavantu wrote:The problem with petrol was that you need it to evaporate in the carburetor.At -35 that doesn't happen.So you need to heat up the engine seriously.
Many Russian engines had a pre-heating device, similar to the gas heaters in American cars, which burned a bit of fuel to heat both the oil and the coolant (modern ZIL-131 truck, with gasoline engine, also has this device) but fuel still has to flow to the heater, which is pretty hard if it's in gel state.savantu wrote:Second , if memory serves russian V2 engines had a pre-heater or something like that.
The safest way to start a large Diesel at -20 degrees Celsius is to pour out the coolant, heat it well in a cauldron at 90 degrees Celsius, then pour it back in the engine. It starts instantly - even better if you use the compressed air bottle and not the starter motor for turning the engine.
~The Witch King of Angmar
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Re: hmm
I think the Russian diesel fuel was "low paraffin"/arctic type, that could be used at low temperatures without the danger of turning to jelly (at the filters).Witch-King of Angmar wrote: Many Russian engines had a pre-heating device, similar to the gas heaters in American cars, which burned a bit of fuel to heat both the oil and the coolant (modern ZIL-131 truck, with gasoline engine, also has this device) but fuel still has to flow to the heater, which is pretty hard if it's in gel state.
Very true.Witch-King of Angmar wrote:The safest way to start a large Diesel at -20 degrees Celsius is to pour out the coolant, heat it well in a cauldron at 90 degrees Celsius, then pour it back in the engine. It starts instantly - even better if you use the compressed air bottle and not the starter motor for turning the engine.
Regards, Juha
Re: hmm
Yes , i did.Witch-King of Angmar wrote:Ever tried to start a Diesel with worn piston rings at -20 Celsius?savantu wrote:Second , as strange as it can be diesel engine works better at low temperatures.
My grandpa's tractor.A torch heatred up the oil for 10min and it started at -23 Celsius.
You need to start it in order to have a hot exhaust.Well, it must be pretty damn obvious why a gasoline engine either has the intake manifold intertwined with the hot exhaust one(the "saxophone"), or a thin exhaust tube wrapped or soldered on the intake manifoldsavantu wrote:The problem with petrol was that you need it to evaporate in the carburetor.At -35 that doesn't happen.So you need to heat up the engine seriously.
Second, doing the torch thing with a petrol engine is incredible dangerous.
My neighbour set his car on fire by doing that.
You use winter diesel for that.Many Russian engines had a pre-heating device, similar to the gas heaters in American cars, which burned a bit of fuel to heat both the oil and the coolant (modern ZIL-131 truck, with gasoline engine, also has this device) but fuel still has to flow to the heater, which is pretty hard if it's in gel state.savantu wrote:Second , if memory serves russian V2 engines had a pre-heater or something like that.
The safest way to start a large Diesel at -20 degrees Celsius is to pour out the coolant, heat it well in a cauldron at 90 degrees Celsius, then pour it back in the engine. It starts instantly - even better if you use the compressed air bottle and not the starter motor for turning the engine.
~The Witch King of Angmar
For your info , some very smart people on this planet realized that you need different diesels for summer and winter.
If the winter isn't hars ( rarely under -10/-15C) you can use normal diesel.
The Romanian Army kept T34/85 in service till 1990.During winter they received special fuel for it.I'm sure the russian were equally capable.
I think the russian were equally good after winter 1939.ChristopherPerrien wrote:....
Generally the Finns are best at winter fighting, and the Russians were better than the Germans, it all becomes a question of how the people in any particular army are "acclimatized" to cold, this goes a long way towards explaining "secondary" problems like vehicle maintenance in very cold conditions.
Extremly important lesson were taught there which they used later.
The german equipment wasn't designed to work in -30C environment.
A fatal flaw.