Luftfaust/Fliegerfaust? Which units were issued these?

Discussions on the equipment used by the Axis forces, apart from the things covered in the other sections. Hosted by Juha Tompuri
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Hoolaman
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Post by Hoolaman » 12 Jun 2003 14:58

Does anyone know how effective this weapon would be as far as range and aiming goes. I assume a salvo of these projectiles would be something like a quick burst from a 20mm Flak.

However I wouldn't think a shoulder launched weapon could not be more effective against fast aircraft than a solid AA gun. Perhaps this is why there wasn't a need to rush this weapon into production.

nox
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Post by nox » 12 Jun 2003 16:40

from Nut & Bolts: " The very short operational range 300-500 m was a great disadvantage. Who would have the courage, to wait until a fast flying aircraft is in range of the luftfaust while the operator aws probably the target of the pilot with his machine-guns. It is also very difficult to calculate distances, especially a head-on plane! From the design of a system to a perfected weapon it is a long way" 8O
advantage of this weapon on the famous flakvierling 38 :)
length 140 cm
weight 6.5 kg
you can always try to shoot the jabos when you have not your sdkfz251/21 under yours hands. :wink:
The most important is to participate 8)

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Boone Vidricksen
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Post by Boone Vidricksen » 16 Feb 2006 03:11

Javichu wrote:Posted by James Blackwell at Missing Links Axis AFV Forum long time ago...The source it´s unknown for me (Maybe a Google search of ML site could shed some light ) But the caption said it was a Street from Berlin.
So I think at least some Luftfaust were delivered to troops unless this hotel was some kind of weapons depot :?


This is the Adlon motel in West Berlin rebuilt in the 90s very nice hotel

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Re: Luftfaust/Fliegerfaust? Which units were issued these?

Post by gusbucket13 » 24 Aug 2011 13:01

The Adlon was in East berlin before unification almost opposite the Brandenburg gate. In 1945 it was still being used partially as a hotel and partially as a field hospital, the ground floor windows were all bricked closed. It survived the war more or less intact but half of it was burned down in 1946 by drunken Russian soldiers who had been raiding the wine cellars. In the photo initially 2 Fliegerfausts are visible one bent like a bananna, but there are actually 3 one further back in the distance is shown better in another photo in the same sequence from a different angle, showing the unmistakeable front ring, so at least 3 were used there. I wish I knew if there were other photos in the sequence but so far only 2 photos have come to light.

cheers GB13

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Grzesio
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Re: Luftfaust/Fliegerfaust? Which units were issued these?

Post by Grzesio » 24 Aug 2011 17:36

Two Fliegerfausts were found in Grillenburg near Dresden in 2004 - maybe another trace of their combat use.

Regards

Grzesio

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Re: Luftfaust/Fliegerfaust? Which units were issued these?

Post by gusbucket13 » 24 Aug 2011 18:01

The Germans were always quick to realise the potential of a weapon system - especially if it was spectacularly effective in a field for which it was never intended - for example the Flak 18 88mm AA Gun in taking on allied armour.

I believe the humble stubble hopper would soon have realised the effectiveness of these weapons in close quarter fighting especially the devastating effect on softskin or lightly armoured vehicles, the HE content of the rounds only adding to their lethality, just think what 4 or 5 2cm HE cannon rounds at close range would do to a soviet truck and contents.......

No one has yet mentioned in all the information on the internet so far located that these rockets were spin stabilised - evident if you examine the drawings closely, this would have made them more stable in flight and therefore more accurate than perhaps they have been given credit for. I guess until the results of the extensive field trials conducted by US Forces become accessible (freedom of information act?) we will never know exactly how accurate they were.

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Re: Luftfaust/Fliegerfaust? Which units were issued these?

Post by Grzesio » 24 Aug 2011 18:57

It'd be interesting to learn about US trials.
But from what we do know of German results, Fliegerfaust was a hopelessly inaccurate weapon. Mostly because of its spin stabilization. The rockets were simply too long for this method - roughly 11 calibres (21 mm calibre, 228 mm long), while a spin stabilized projectile shouldn't be longer than some 5.5-6 calibres. This led to their four additional nozzles being set at 45 deg. angle (after earlier tials with 15 and 30 deg.) to produce stunning 26 000 rpm spin - what in turn reduced max. velocity to mere 150 m/s (from initial 250 m/s, while 300 m/s was basically demanded). Anyway, Fliegerfaust salvo covered eventually diameter of some 15 per cent of the distance (in initial trials even 20 per cent), and it was hoped to reach 10 por cent of the distance till the end of 1944 - but I doubt if they succeeded. :P

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Grzesio

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Re: Luftfaust/Fliegerfaust? Which units were issued these?

Post by gusbucket13 » 25 Aug 2011 07:30

That is a terribly large spread, I wonder if modern rocket propellant chemistry has progressed enough nowadays to give the rocket projectile more power & a greater velocity?

I cant see the US Trials still be ing covered by any secrecy act so all it should take is a US National to file a request for information under their freedom of information act and the wheels of the beaurocracy should slowly turn?

Many thanks for the further info Grzesio

Cheers
GB13

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Re: Luftfaust/Fliegerfaust? Which units were issued these?

Post by mvg1 » 13 Dec 2017 17:40

FWIW, here is a Bing translation of Bjorn's German text:

To the deep Fliegerabwehr, the Army not only had the "flying fright" but also the air fist.
At the 1944 of the company HASAG (H. Schneider AG, Leipzig) first developed» Airfist-a «, a one-man anti-aircraft gun, four pipes had to be bundled together. It was shot in a volley of the 90 G heavy mine grenade of 2 cm caliber, which wore 19 g of explosives. These projectiles were placed on a rocket propellant. They reached a maximum speed of 380 m/s after the firing. Since the test showed not only an insufficient coverage of the hit circuit, but also a too large dispersion, we now went over to more and longer tubes. The further development, known as the "Faust-B", had nine pipes of 1500 mm length. The nine grenades were shot in 2 volleys with 0.2 sec. Distance and formed in 500 m distance a hit circle of about 60-m diameter. The 6.5 kg heavy fist was simply laid with the rear part on the shoulder, there was no recoil.
In March 1945, an order for 10 000 weapons ran with 4 million rounds of ammunition. At the end of April, however, only 80 of these weapons were found in the troop trial.
An enlarged version was the Flying fist with six tubes of 3 cm caliber. Here the 3-cm-mine-projectile of the aircraft Bordwaffe MK 108, which was carrying 0, 33kg weight 75 g of explosives, should be shot. However, this weapon did not come out of the experimental stage. Another planned weapon was the hand-blower. Here, three pipes had been combined into a bundle, from which the R. Spgr. 4609 was shot. This was the improved RZ 73, a 330 mm long drallstabilisierte [twist-stabilized] on-board rocket of 73-mm-kai., which had been developed by the Luftwaffe. It weighed 3.2 kg, carried 0.3 kg of explosives and reached a maximum speed of 360 m/s.
By the way, the Rockets sprenggranate 4609 has been in larger numbers, it was used with the 35schüssigen [?] anti-aircraft anti-blower hair dryer, from which the Luftwaffe had received 83 and some had given to the army flak to defend the Remagenbrücke [Remagen bridge]. This thrower weighed in the fixed version 650 kg, loaded this weapon with five magazines each seven shots. In the 50 delivered casters were also some in a movable carriage. But the weight rose to 1350 kg. But with the 15 000 shot, which was consumed by the end of November 1944 in the troop trial, only one shot was achieved. During December, two kills arrive at a consumption of nearly 5000 shots, which were still over 70 Werfersalven [salvos launched?] for a shot.
Within the development programme for the Planet Project, with which new anti-aircraft missiles were to be created, there was also a pattern for the army to be used against low-flying planes. In the warhead of 97 mm diameter There were seven small rockets with superposed mortars from the Kal. 30 mm as they were used in the Air Force MK 108. In the shot, the missile bundle should be ejected after a short flight of time after the shot principle. As a result of the offset nozzles, these rockets should fly for about 25 seconds on circular tracks with a radius of about 100 m. Through these trajectories, a cube with an edge length of about 400 m would have been covered in such a way that a flying plane would be highly likely to come into contact with the high-sensitivity impact igniter of one of these projectiles. A pipe was provided for the shot, as it was already used in the tank fright. The entire development "planet", which only started in mid-January 1945 at the Reich Research Council, has not come out of numerous studies for small rockets, for the various trajectories, etc.

**Obviously a few issues w/the translation. Not sure just what an "anti-aircraft anti-blower hair dryer" might be, although as the war progressed, the Germans did throw a lot of spaghetti at the wall to see what would stick...

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Re: Luftfaust/Fliegerfaust? Which units were issued these?

Post by poky » 29 Dec 2017 22:00

**Obviously a few issues w/the translation. Not sure just what an "anti-aircraft anti-blower hair dryer" might be, although as the war progressed, the Germans did throw a lot of spaghetti at the wall to see what would stick...
likely the 7.3 cm Föhn-Gerät https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henschel_Hs_297

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Grzesio
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Re: Luftfaust/Fliegerfaust? Which units were issued these?

Post by Grzesio » 30 Dec 2017 01:32

Another planned weapon was the hand-blower.
I.e. the Hand-Foehn launcher. :)
from which the R. Spgr. 4609 was shot
This number, however frequently repeated, seems unlikely for a live projectile, as numbers ending with 9 were applied to drill (Ex) ammunition.
This was the improved RZ 73, a 330 mm long drallstabilisierte [twist-stabilized] on-board rocket of 73-mm-kai., which had been developed by the Luftwaffe. It weighed 3.2 kg, carried 0.3 kg of explosives and reached a maximum speed of 360 m/s.
The rocket for the Foehn launcher was developed from the RZ 65, not the RZ 73. It was therefore shorter (277 mm with fuze) and slower (280 m/s or so).
likely the 7.3 cm Föhn-Gerät https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henschel_Hs_297
As far as I know, the 7,3 cm R.Sprgr rocket was never designated as the Hs 297, while it had nothing in common with Henschel for sure.
The design number OS 297 was, however, used for one of the planned Foehn launchers, so this may be the source of this false attribution to Henschel.

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