The German Atomic Device - The Evidence

[Kephra]

It did took an decade after first atomic weapons to minituriaze nuclear device so that Bf-109 could theoretically carry it.

That is the core of the question, if it took an decade after first atomic weapons to minituriaze nuclear device. From where do you have your knowledge that it took this time? And why are you shure, that your source is telling the story stright? Have you read the books mentioned in the link?
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Grüße!
Kephra

[Mark V]

First aerial nuclear bomb that could had been theoretically *** carried by Bf-109 was US Mk-12 Brok (also physics package of W-9 warhead could had been made to reasonably light aerial bomb - if wanted in same timeframe).

Snapper Easy 12:15 7 May 1952 (GMT):
This device (code named BROK-1) was a test of the TX-12, a Mk-12 bomb prototype. The Mk-12 was intended to be a slender, lightweight tactical bomb that could be carried externally by high speed fighter-bombers. It set a record at the time for small diameter and light weight, with an implosion system diameter of 22 inches weighing only 550 lb (a modest improvement over the Mk-7), yet retained good compression and efficiency. The total device weight was 625 lb, with a predicted yield of 9 kt. http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/Usa/Tests/Tumblers.html


Mk-12 Bomb width 22 in, lenght 155 in, weight 1,100 - 1,200 lb, yield 12, 14 Kt, fuzing Timer or contact, Manufactured 12/54 - 2/57;
Retired 7/58 - 7/62; 250 produced High-speed fighter-bomber weapon; 92-point implosion weapon; nicknamed "Brok"; probably first weapon using beryllium tamper; 4 versions stockpiled - 2 prototypes, 2 mods
http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/Usa/Wea ... bombs.html
http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/Usa/Weapons/Mk12.jpg

Mark V


*** I by no means mean that it would had been practical. But Bf-109 could propably get airborne with Brok tucked under it's belly

[Mark V]

I have no intent to purchase any of the books of F. Georg.

I think i have not lost much when reading the summaries of those books... I have no interest on books that are ment for the "alternative history" scale model builders.


Mark V

PS. I found an site where that "nuclear bomb" carried by Bf-109 in picture posted previously here is described as an 250kg mini-nuke. If we are talking about fission device i can only laugh out loud....

Feel free to post opposite evidence...

[ohrdruf]

Mark V

My original suggestion was that a sphere of 7% plutonium enriched natural uranium powder would have provided a "fizzle" if used as the warhead for a V-2 rocket. The enrichment would have been achieved by exposing natural uranium powder to neutron bombardment for two years in a laboratory. The idea seems to fit some of the facts but unfortunately this did not find a basis for useful or intelligent discussion on this forum.


I agree with your assessment of the author you mention. He is a good researcher full stop. Photographs of an Me 109 carrying a bomb-type object slung so low below the undercarriage as to almost scrape the runway which are alleged to feature the fighter carrying a type of A-bomb are unfortunately unsupported by any documentary evidence.


The problem is that there were two explosive tests carried out at Ohrdruf Truppenuebungsplatz on 4th and 12th March 1945. All documentation about Ohrdruf has been classified by the US authorities for a minimum of 100 years, but knowledge became available through depositions submitted to a DDR tribunal of Enquiry at nearby Arnstadt in 1962 and declassified in 1989 upon reunification. The explosions were small-scale affairs which exhibited some of the phenomena of nuclear detonations and the assumption has been made by German authors that they must have been "tactical nuclear weapon tests".


These German authors discount the other indications which are fairly conclusive of the material not having been nuclear in the sense which one understands it. A certain weapon often alleged to be a bluff was being worked on at Ohrdruf, but although tested on two occasions at Ohrdruf, and several times elsewhere, technical problems obstructed any hope of deploying it in the last month of the war. There are two declassified documents and early publications which refer obliquely to the development as "a small bomb of terrific destructive power".


From what I have heard, it would be unwise for German authors to refer to this weapon in print, whereas the "German tactical nuclear weapon" is perfectly OK because it never existed.

[Mark V]

Hi ohrdruf,

If that German experiment was actually an prototype Pu-breeder reactor for weapons purposes...

Few things are still open to me:

- How would the reactor handle the continuously increasing activity of fuel without meltdown ?? To me the cooling looks whoefully inadequate.

- Secondly. If the reactor would work as described. Why left the produced Pu embedded to U ?? The cost of separating Pu from U comes with safety concerns of workforce and enviroment - hardly serious matters for Germany which had plenty of expendable workforce and could use foreign soil for Pu-purification purposes.

- To me simpler weapon approach would had been separating the Pu and building an gun-type "fizzler" - much less (hot) fissionable mass and volume needed and positive means of assuring that the weapon would actually go off.

In the end. Did Germans really knew enough about properties of Plutonium that they could go forward with actual design and production of weapon - even fizzler type ?? And was "sphere" reactor really an deliberate attempt to overcame the problem they had with insufficient amount of suitable moderator material for mass-production of weapons material on more conventional means ?? Or was it just base research.


Mark V

[ohrdruf]

Dear Mark V

The idea may have been to mass-produce a rudimentary and cheap but enormously powerful warhead for the V-2 rocket. I hope that when you use the word "plutonium breeder", you understand that I am not suggesting a nuclear reactor. The equipment was an aluminium sphere no more than a half-metre in diameter containing natural uranium powder. Inside the main sphere was a concentric inner sphere containing heavy water- The main sphere had a chimney for introducing the Ra-Be radioactive element. Over a period of two years or so, the neutrons emitted by the Ra-Be Praeparat and slowed by the moderator were captured by the U-238 and transformed into isotopes of plutonium, 7% being the magic figure aimed for. The idea is so simple that most people cannot grasp it, they think it has to be really complicated so that only a genius can understand it, and that is not the case.

During 1940 two groups of scientists including Heisenberg's close friend C F von Weizsaecker submitted official reports on the discovery of a fissile isotope one decay stage beyond neptunium. Heisenberg's experiments at Leipzig in 1941 and 1942 are suggestive of weapons thinking rather than the path to an Uranbrenner.

The experimental laboratory sphere at Leipzig in June 1942 self-ignited but is suspected to have been the result of a fault in the construction of the sphere. Exactly what the properties and performance of 7% plutonium-enriched natural uranium powder may be I have not been able to discover. Heisenberg had the sphere immersed in a bath of cold water and so he must have thought that that was sufficient for stability.


Incidentally the magic figure of 7% is confirmed by the American physicist Serber in Rhodes: "The Making of the Atomic Bomb" as being the absolute minimum for obtaining a nuclear explosion of some kind. That is to say, there would have been explosive reaction, probably no greater than a flash, meltdown and radioactive release, when the V-2 impacted. If it was initially the intention to develop the V-2 for the warhead, the whole V-weapons project suddenly has some sense in it.

It is my personal belief that Hitler was against developing an atomic bomb on doctrinal grounds. Nuclear research was given a fairly low priority and underfunded: the creation of a hundred or so laboratory spheres of the type described neatly avoided the problem of isotope separation and moderator shortage, and might have resulted in a weapon which obliged Britain to withdraw from hostilities.

The alternative project to the atomic bomb was that alluded to at Ohrdruf, the so-called Charite-Anlage Project which was unique in having the highest known priority in the Third Reich - "Kreigsentscheidend".

[Mark V]

Dear Mark V

The idea may have been to mass-produce a rudimentary and cheap but enormously powerful warhead for the V-2 rocket. I hope that when you use the word "plutonium breeder", you understand that I am not suggesting a nuclear reactor. The equipment was an aluminium sphere no more than a half-metre in diameter containing natural uranium powder. Inside the main sphere was a concentric inner sphere containing heavy water- The main sphere had a chimney for introducing the Ra-Be radioactive element. Over a period of two years or so, the neutrons emitted by the Ra-Be Praeparat and slowed by the moderator were captured by the U-238 and transformed into isotopes of plutonium, 7% being the magic figure aimed for.

OK - now i got it.

You are talking about basically sub-selfsustaining assembly, with outside neutron source.

During last days i have tried to dig information would that be possible... Still ongoing search... but the suggested amount of U-238 transmutated to Pu with very limited amount of neutrons available in such system seems incredibly high...

The idea of using the sub-quality fissionable fuel in itself is viable.

Regards, Mark V

[ohrdruf]

Dear Mark V

I am glad you see the point. Heisenberg's experiment B-III in 1941/42 was aimed, as he admitted, "to establish certain constants", and the experimental arrangement enabled him to measure where neutron capture occurred in the uranium and at what rate, i.e it told him what he wanted to know about plutonium culture.

I assume the period of two years for 7% from the following: the project was placed elsewhere, almost certainly with the Reichpost project under von Ardenne at Berlin-Lichterfelde in June/July 1942, and a number of German sources indicate great excitement about a new aerial weapon becoming available in December 1944: "a terrible device whose main effect was artificial radioactivity" as Skorzeny described it in his book "Wir Kaempften, wir verloren." The range of the V-2 is 200 miles, and since that is precisely the diistance from Antwerp to London, may explain the real purpose of the Ardennes Campaign.

[Hop]

The range of the V-2 is 200 miles, and since that is precisely the diistance from Antwerp to London, may explain the real purpose of the Ardennes Campaign.

The Germans were still hitting London with V-2s as late as March 1945. Indeed on the 8th of March 1945 one killed 110 people in Smithfield Market.

Areas of the Netherlands still under German occupation in 1945 were used. The Hague is exactly the same distance from London as Antwerp, and over 200 V-2s were launched in March 45 alone.

Why launch the Ardennes offensive to secure Antwerp as a launch site when you already have launch sites in Northern Holland?

[ohrdruf]

Hop

What was achieved in March 1945 may not be what was possible in January. Kindly state the exact distance from The Hague to London.

[Topspeed]

Mark V,

Are you telling us that germans knew nothing about nuclear physics and did not master the technic ?

I bet with modern day technics one could have a sniper with a rifle that shoots nuclear ammos that could put a tank into suborbital path.
Well soon anyway.:roll:


rgrds,

Juke

[Hop]

According to my map, from the centre of London (Picadilly Circus) to the centre of the Hague is 195 miles, from Picadilly Circus to the centre of Antwerp is 196 miles.

What was achieved in March 1945 may not be what was possible in January.

The figures I have show that in Nov 44 there were 143 launches from the Hague, 113 in December, 229 in Jan 45, 230 in Feb, 217 in March.

V-2s were fired at London almost continually from September to March. Certainly there was no extended period when London was safe from V-2 attacks.

Edit: a good site detailing launches and launch sites at http://www.v2rocket.com/start/deployment/denhaag.html

[Mark V]

Hi Topspeed,

Mark V,

Are you telling us that germans knew nothing about nuclear physics and did not master the technic ?

They knew quite a lot of nuclear physics, but they were severely hampered by their limited resources and made some critical mistakes which led them to engineering and economical dead-ends. In the end the scientists never could convince military leadership to mount an top priority project to build an bomb, like Americans did.

Still, things might had been different very easily. If graphite cross section measurement in 1941 would had been correct - and one energetic man with influence on Speer, etc.. put in charge of program...

An Pu based weapon route would had been entirely possible even with limited resources Germans had. Such program would had been much less spectacular than Manhattan Project was - but could have resulted to nuclear weapon by 1945 if started early.

I bet with modern day technics one could have a sniper with a rifle that shoots nuclear ammos that could put a tank into suborbital path.
Well soon anyway.:roll:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=38482

Regards, Mark V

[ohrdruf]

Hop

Many thanks for your prompt reply, I had been misinformed. My hypothesis - which was all it was - was incorrect and the suggested weapon was not the reason for the Ardennes Campaign.

This leaves only one possibility as to why Antwerp was of such importance and I was hoping to avoid having to accept it: The Hague is on the North Sea, which is salt, and Antwerp has brackish water.

Unfortunately in an earlier Me 262 article you indicated no interest or belief in advanced German technologies, and therefore I shall not bother to explain the significance to you.

I appreciate your help.

Ohrdruf

[Hop]

This leaves only one possibility as to why Antwerp was of such importance

Antwerp was a major port, and the Germans hoped to split the allied forces.

It wasn't exactly a good plan, but Germany didn't have many options open by that stage of the war.

I am certainly interested in advanced German technologies, all I have done is offer alternative explanations of why things were done.

For example, I don't think you can infer some wonder weapon was due to be deployed on the Me 262, all, or almost all, late war fighters were fitted out as fighter bombers.

Germany, which had no chance of gaining air superiority, desperately needed a fighter bomber that stood a good chance of getting through to allied rear echelon targets.

On another board I frequent, Christer Bergstrom, a noted author on the Luftwaffe, is busy arguing that the 262 was better built as a bomber than a fighter, because, even with a bomb load of 1000kg, it would be more effective than throwing it against overwhelming allied air superiority.

I've countered some of the circumstantial evidence you've posted, I'd welcome studying any direct evidence.

At the moment, you could put me down as "sceptical", but there's a difference between being sceptical and refusing to believe.