Moselgerät and Donaugerät (W.P.G for Heeresküstenartillerie)

Discussions on the equipment used by the Axis forces, apart from the things covered in the other sections. Hosted by Juha Tompuri
jopaerya
Member
Posts: 18306
Joined: 21 Jun 2004 13:21
Location: middelburg

Moselgerät and Donaugerät (W.P.G for Heeresküstenartillerie)

Post by jopaerya » 16 Mar 2005 19:50

Hello Everybody

I am looking for info or fotos about this type of radar I found some that it works on the 150 and 60 Wellenlänge.
It was used in Le Havre in 1944 also in Belgium, Denmark and Norway( Stavanger). It was not a Marine- or Luftwafferadar, it was only used by Heeresküstenartillerie-Abteilungen. In Belgium they were also bunkers planned for the Moselgerät .

Jopaerya
Last edited by jopaerya on 27 Mar 2005 21:16, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
SES
Financial supporter
Posts: 3925
Joined: 26 Jan 2004 09:07
Location: 05 ON LT 8

Post by SES » 17 Mar 2005 08:18

Hi
I've never heard about the Möselgerät. Was that also a Warm peil Gerät (WpG) ? The wave length you mention is that in cm, my, Mhz ????
In Denmark there were plans to equip at least 10 HKBs with the Donau Gerät. The only solid evidence of an actual deployment is on Fanø in Southern Denmark. Attached a PP (:-)) of a Donau Gerät and one of the bunkers where is was deployed.
bregds
SES
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Jon XLH
Member
Posts: 40
Joined: 09 Jul 2004 09:11
Location: Australia

Post by Jon XLH » 17 Mar 2005 09:42

Donau and Mosel Gerat are both infrared devices not Radar.

Donau Gerat (Donau 60) was a very high quality thermal (the region called ‘far-infrared’) detector capable of ‘seeing’ large capital ships out to 35 k’s (fog, mist etc reduced the range by half). It was not by itself capable of giving a range indication just a bearing and was used in conjunction with other Donau sites to triangulate the ships position and thereby its range from shore. It was a bolometer, the work was done by WaPruf 8/I Optics branch for the costal (army) artillery and was based on similar equipment used by the Imperial German Army in WWI to guard their Belgium u-boat ports from lurking English motor gun boats. The Allies captured their first (wrecked) Donau within days of landing in Normandy and their first Donau operator by the first week ashore.
Although it comes under the general WPG heading the later true designated WPG for the navy the WPG42 used a different thermal receiver than the bolometer/s of the Donau,

Mosel gerat was an extremely high quality image converting electron telescope (the region called ‘near-infrared’) using the largest of the three tubes developed by the Germans. It is the same tube used in the navy version the Igel the luftwaffe version the Adler and the one used by the panzertruppen on their UHU h/track the FG1251.
Typically in a harbour setting it would be used in conjunction with a large 2-meter infrared-screened searchlight. This would have a picture forming range, over water, of 2 k’s – used for harbour and in-shore defence. The Germans believed infrared was useful for closing the in-shore gap that is usually just clutter and noise on shore based radar. The allies took their first examples from an old French fort covering the approaches to Cherbourg harbour late June ’44.

xl

User avatar
SES
Financial supporter
Posts: 3925
Joined: 26 Jan 2004 09:07
Location: 05 ON LT 8

Post by SES » 17 Mar 2005 09:50

Hi Jon,
Thank you very much for this interesting info. Do you happen to have a picture of the Mösel gerät you would care to share please.
bregds
SES
PS How did you like our Crown princess :-)

jopaerya
Member
Posts: 18306
Joined: 21 Jun 2004 13:21
Location: middelburg

Post by jopaerya » 17 Mar 2005 13:08

Thanks John

For your info on the Mösel- and Donaugerat , if
I may ask you were did you get your info from.
In Le Havre there were 4 Messstellen and one
Auswertezentrale .
Is the Möselgerate the same as the fotos on the
Panther and Sd Kfz 251/20 on the
http://www.missing-lynx.com/articles/di ... utions.htm
And is the picture from S.E.S. the same as the Donau gerat
or is this the W.P.G.42 auf Zeiss-Stativ.

Thanks a lot for your good info Jos

Jon XLH
Member
Posts: 40
Joined: 09 Jul 2004 09:11
Location: Australia

Post by Jon XLH » 18 Mar 2005 05:52

The information comes from many sources collected over the last 20 years, it’s not limited to, but includes the following references: -

Report in infra-red developments with special reference to German equipment and future possibilities - Advisory Council on Scientific research ant Technical Development, Ministry of Supply, 15 January 1946.

Potentialities of Infra-Red Viewing Equipment in Tank Gunnery – Operational Research Group (Weapons & Equipment) Report No. 365, 1 March 1948.

The Employment on Near-Infra-Red Radiation in Military Operations at Night – Army Operations Research Group Report No. 303, 12 November 1945.

Records of Admiralty Wartime Research and Development 1939-1945 Part IR, Infra-Red – Department of Research Programmes and Planning, Admiralty

German Research on Infrared Receivers – Corps of Engineers, U.S. Army, 3 January 1946

A.R.L Comments on reports on the French “Hot Body” Detector (Bayle) - Advisory Council on Scientific research ant Technical Development, Ministry of Supply, 6th June 1940.

Minutes of Visit of the Committee on 18th and 19th March, 1948 – Infra-Red Committee of the Radar and Signals Advisory Board, Advisory Council on Scientific research ant Technical Development, Ministry of Supply, 23rd February 1948.

Soviet bloc Work in Infra-red – Joint Intelligence Bureau (Division of Scientific Intelligence), Ministry of Defence, August 1956.

Some Aspects of Recent Soviet Work on Infra-red Research – Defence Intelligence Staff (Directorate of Scientific and Technical Intelligence), Ministry of Defence, March 1965.

Infra Red Equipment – 1, Technical Report on German “Spanner II” Viewing Device - Operational Research Group (Weapons and Equipment) Report No. 334.

The Resolving Power of some Viewing Devices, Infra Red Equipment III, Operational Research Group Weapons and Equipment) Report No. 336, 22nd November 1946

German Research on Infrared Receivers – Corps of Engineers, U.S. Army, 3 January 1946.

Operational Use of Infra Red Equipment by the Wehrmacht – Halstead Exploiting Centre, 27 June 1945.

Minutes January-March – Uber eine Sitzung des Arbeitskreises U.R.-Gerate beim Gen.Insp.d.Pz.Tr – 18 January 1945.

German Infra-Red Development – Air Scientific Intelligence Report No. 251

German Infra-Red Devices and Associated Investigations – Report No. 2, Lieut. Cdr. A. Elliott, R.N.V.R. and Lieut. L.E. Mayes, R.N.V.R, 12 November 1945

In particular the post war writings of the former WaPruf (section 8/I optics) team lead by Dr Gaertner and his able assistant Dr Breunig. Its all there you just have to look for it.


Please disregard the ML last panzer diorama as complete fiction. Installations such as that never happened. The scope the Mosel is most like is the one carried by the UHU half-track (sdkfz 251/20) under the 60-cm infrared searchlight but with a different optical front end.

The picture is indeed a Donau and not the WPG. The WPG looked very similar but was mounted on a smaller ‘lattice’ type stand. Both had automatic following gear to keep the target sighted. As SES’s Donau photo shows it was a 600mm parabolic mirror that focused the heat signal on the bolometer strips at the front. The WPG used lead crystals in the detection element. There was also a WPG 150 (1.5 meter mirror) based on the old Luftwaffe listening equipment.

SES, your Crown Princess is very nice but here in egalitarian Australia we owe allegiance to our Crown Larger, which is never aloof, always ready to satisfy, goes down with out any complaint and provides plenty of the royal we.

Jon
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
stril
Member
Posts: 2615
Joined: 10 Jul 2003 10:37
Location: Norway

Post by stril » 18 Mar 2005 14:40

Hello Jo.
Perhaps you have already searched Nuav.net and the forum on that site.
It have some discussions about the Warm-Peil Gerät. Names/places mentioned are Flekkerøy, Feistein, Store Kjør and Jærensrev.
regards
stril

User avatar
MAX_theHitMan
Member
Posts: 965
Joined: 19 Apr 2004 00:28
Location: Planet*Portugal

Post by MAX_theHitMan » 18 Mar 2005 18:56

Thanks for that great source list Jon XLH !

Thanks mate
Cheers

Max

User avatar
SES
Financial supporter
Posts: 3925
Joined: 26 Jan 2004 09:07
Location: 05 ON LT 8

Post by SES » 18 Mar 2005 21:05

Hi Jon,
Thanks again for starting this thread. I keep being astounded over what is still insufficiently described in published literature over many German WW 2 subjects and pieces of equipment - and believe this is one of them. However the 3 of us - that is the Kriegsmarine, you and me have a slight disagreement over one comment you made:

"The picture is indeed a Donau and not the WPG. The WPG looked very similar but was mounted on a smaller ‘lattice’ type stand. Both had automatic following gear to keep the target sighted".

I.a.w. MDv 291. OKM NWa 09145 dated 1 Feb 1944 the piece of equipment posted in my first mail is indeed a WpG. It works on a principle equivalent to the former times handheld exposure meters and does not produce an image like I think the Mösel does.
bregds
SES

User avatar
Valtoro
Member
Posts: 778
Joined: 16 Mar 2004 18:45
Location: Norway

Post by Valtoro » 18 Mar 2005 22:04

Didn't they try the Gerät at Okslehavn too?

http://home.online.no/~la8ak/k51.htm

regards,
Valtoro.

stril wrote:Hello Jo.
Perhaps you have already searched Nuav.net and the forum on that site.
It have some discussions about the Warm-Peil Gerät. Names/places mentioned are Flekkerøy, Feistein, Store Kjør and Jærensrev.
regards
stril

User avatar
FLECKTARN
Member
Posts: 97
Joined: 14 Mar 2005 20:25
Location: STP.Gruppe Scheveningen

Post by FLECKTARN » 18 Mar 2005 22:51

What is this??
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

jopaerya
Member
Posts: 18306
Joined: 21 Jun 2004 13:21
Location: middelburg

Post by jopaerya » 19 Mar 2005 10:10

Hello all

This info is not from me but from Erik E.
In his info I red that were 2 firms in Germany that did made
the W.P.G. the first one Zeiss in Jena and the other Elac in Kiel.
The Zeiss gerat used a bolometer in a metalhousing and the
Elac gerat used a fotocel in a parabolspiegel .
In the most cases the Kriegsmarine used the Zeiss gerat (M.S.B. Vara
and M.S.B. Holzendorf , M.S.B. Lüderitz {Borkum} )
And the Heereskustenartillerie used the Elac gerat ( Stavanger,
Ebsjerg and Le Havre .

"WPG 150 Seeziel" by Elac capable of detecting a 2000 BRT ship with a
chimney temperature of 60 - 100 degrees Celsius up to a distance of 20 - 30 km.
A submarine could be detected up to 10 - 15 km.
"WPG 60 Seeziel" by Elac like WPG 150 but the reflector shield `s diameter
was 60 cm instead of 150 cm.
"WPG 21" by Elac diameter 21 cm, this one was still under development
"WPG" by Zeiss results like WPG 150 by Elac but different technology and
more difficult to handle. This one should be used on board of destroyers.

In a German battlereport I red that the Möselgerat was reused in July 1944 in
Le Havre on the landside to battle against tanks.

Jos

Jon XLH
Member
Posts: 40
Joined: 09 Jul 2004 09:11
Location: Australia

Post by Jon XLH » 24 Mar 2005 08:07

Hi SES, we are just talking semantics. All thermal detection gear (far infrared) was to the Germans designated WpG including Donau, Z Gerate etc. The item issued with bolometers was called Donau as apposed to the Elac device labelled WpG 60. All are WpG devices only one family was actually designated with the name. (I have previously written to Elac asking about their work in this field and they responded they no longer have any records or liked talking about it – like most German companies, very defensive about previous work done for a doggy client).

As similar discussion over picture forming (Biwa) infrared devices such as Mosel, Adler and Spanner ect. could be had. Spanner is just a contraction of hochspannung meaning high-tension as it applies to the high voltage these devices used. One strain of the family gets called spanner and others get nifty names.

Flecktarn, you have very interesting images of a system called (by the British) an infrared barrage or optical barrage. It’s works like a break-the-beam shop alarm. These units were placed across harbour entrances and the like to ‘count’ ships in/out. A very interesting story about this can be read in RV Jone’s book. The British discovered (via ULTRA) the Germans were looking at installing this kind of system across the Gibraltar straight (in Spanish territory) just before the Torch landings, which would have been a disaster for the allied build-up. The allies put pressure on the Spanish and the system was never installed. I’ve not seen the top one before – looks like the officer is using a tone generator to line up with the far end – like tuning a radio. Note the aiming telescope on the pair of spiegel gerate’s (mirror device) on the upper left-hand edge.


Jopaerya, very interesting information that you have the battle report from the Germans re using their IR for defence of the Canadian attack on Le Harve. It would have been used with a large 2-meter infrared-screened searchlight for observation of enemy movement, is the report very detailed?

Jon
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

jopaerya
Member
Posts: 18306
Joined: 21 Jun 2004 13:21
Location: middelburg

Post by jopaerya » 27 Mar 2005 14:47

Hello Jon

The battle report is from a Major E.Wenzel " Bericht uber Frontbesuch in Le Havre"
It is not detailed , it only staded that the Möselgeräte was used in the Landfront with
four Züge.
Jon do you know if the Zeiss geräte was for the Kriegsmarine and the Elac geräte
for the Heer ?
Also I found a German report from 1944 that a Donaumesszug was planned in Morsalines
also a Heeres Küsten Batterie in Normandie.

Jos

User avatar
SES
Financial supporter
Posts: 3925
Joined: 26 Jan 2004 09:07
Location: 05 ON LT 8

Post by SES » 27 Mar 2005 19:19

Different tri-pod, same equipment ?
bregds
SES
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Return to “Other Equipment”