APCR

Discussions on the equipment used by the Axis forces, apart from the things covered in the other sections. Hosted by Juha Tompuri
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David Lehmann
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APCR

Post by David Lehmann » 17 Sep 2002 12:52

Hello,

Do you know if APCR rounds were available for the allies in july 1944 on the Normandy TO ? Were germans also equiped or not ?

David

b_c_ries
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Post by b_c_ries » 17 Sep 2002 22:14

APCR (armor piercing composite rigid) was available for US 76mm guns and issued to Tank Destroyers though the same ammunition would work in a 76mm sherman if the tankers could manage to get the ammo. The Germans stopped the use of APCR sometime in 1942 because of a shortage of tungsten carbide but allowed an exception for PAK-38 AT guns. Once the English came out with the discarding sabot APCR became obsolete as APCR is essentially an APDS where the sabot remains stuck to the projectile until it hits something thereby causing a parasitic loss of velocity as it travels towards it intended target. APCR continued to be used by US 76mm guns while English 17pdr and 6pdr guns used APDS. The Nazis with limited tungsten carbide chose to use conventional ammunition with bigger guns.
If 70 grains of IMR 4064 in a 7.92x57 case behind a 197 gr. fmj is too much then 85 grains should be just right.

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col. klink
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German AP ammo

Post by col. klink » 21 Oct 2002 23:04

I have a question. In Orr Kelly's book King of the Killing Zone, about the M-1 Abrams, Kelly talks about depleted uranium. He mentions that the Germans used uranium in some of their ammunition in WWII, I presume in anti-tank ammo. Now there is currently a controversy involving the use of ammo made with depleted uranium; whether it poses a health risk from radiation. There was a UN report released a few weeks ago that implies there is no or very little risk of this. What I'm wondering is if there is any health data about the people who manufactured or handle or used or where on the receiving end of this type of shot during WWII. Also if there was any environmental study done where these shells were made, stored or used; any indication of a higher level of radiation. I would think these shells weren't made with depleted uranium but with the natural ore and would have retained a higher radiation content than modern DU ammo. Just curious.

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Christian Ankerstjerne
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Post by Christian Ankerstjerne » 21 Oct 2002 23:15

This was discussed a while back, and I believe that it was concluded with the Germans not having uranium ammunition.

Christian

Zygmunt
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Post by Zygmunt » 22 Oct 2002 21:19

It is my understanding that DU is not particularly dangerous because of the radiation it may retain (in spite of being 'depleted') but rather because the metal is itself very toxic, and at the very high temperatures caused when a projectile strikes a tank, all sorts of compounds can be formed. I do not think there is much fission going on (to create radioactive isotopes of other elements), it is just that the Uranium dust is very dangerous, especially if inhaled.

Zygmunt

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Christian Ankerstjerne
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Post by Christian Ankerstjerne » 22 Oct 2002 21:39

Zygmunt has a point. Alpha waves (the mildest form of radiation) will be stopped by the skin, but if inhaled it can cause lung cancer on a long term basis.
Beta waves will go through the skin, but short-term radiation will not be dangarous. It will usually be stopped by about 3-5mm of lead.

The gamma waves are the most dangerous, but they won't be found with depleted uranium (in any major amounts).

The psycological effect is very important. If you believe firmly enough that you will die, you will die overnight. (Which is used by some tribe medicin men to gain power, as they people believe them, and they can thus decide who wil llive or die).
Some of the guards at Tjernobyl claims that they can actually feel the radiation - but if this was true, the radiation woudl be so powerfull that it would kil them very fast. When measured, the radiation level wasn't higher at the area that one would experience thorugh watching television...

Christian

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col. klink
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DU

Post by col. klink » 24 Oct 2002 03:17

That's sort of what the Dept of Defense's study said; that any health danger would be the result of inhaling partilles created at the time of impact or that where present a short time the hit. Thanks for the information.

b_c_ries
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Post by b_c_ries » 24 Oct 2002 04:53

I suppose that inhaling small particles would be the least of somebodys worries when their tank is struck by a depleated uranium projectile.
If 70 grains of IMR 4064 in a 7.92x57 case behind a 197 gr. fmj is too much then 85 grains should be just right.

Zygmunt
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Post by Zygmunt » 24 Oct 2002 15:05

b_c_ries wrote:I suppose that inhaling small particles would be the least of somebodys worries when their tank is struck by a depleated uranium projectile.


For the crew, yes, but any infantry who arrive to 'mop up' after a tank battle will be worried about it, as will any vehicle salvage teams whose task is to recover knocked out tanks. I understand a US salvage team had serious exposure to DU after cleaning up some US AFVs hit by friendly DU fire during 'operation desert storm'.

Then there's the question of how long Col. Klink's "a short time" is...


Zygmunt

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