V2 Rocket Warheads

Discussions on the equipment used by the Axis forces, apart from the things covered in the other sections. Hosted by Juha Tompuri
Mark V
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Post by Mark V » 03 Oct 2002 21:33

Yep Scott.

There has been a lot of variation on estimates about actual yield of Little Boy. Quite undestandable when the thinking uniquety of such assembly and the circumstances of deployment, which severely restricted means of measuring the yield. Naturally correct detonation altitude varies with the yield. I think you agree me that maximizing 5 psi overpressure is what we are looking if target is area of average urban population. It maximizes the casualties and destructed area.

I see that you agree me that if weapon is detonated at altitude out of range of blast, heat or prompt radiation effects it makes a bomb totally ineffective.

I think also that those few additional cancer cases that would have been followed in next few decades could not be a desired objective of actual weapon usage, as some of our forum members apparently thinks.

If either of nukes detonated in Japan would have exploded at 18000 feet i think there wouldn't have been a single person dying from acute radiation sickness either (OK, i give some leverage for atmospheric phenomenons - read: rain), but for sure at maximum a handfull would die from direct effects of bomb.

Funny that this 18000 feet detonation altitude would appear again in this thread. I posted it originally as an tool to demonstrate that you need some accuracy on delivery also with weapons of mass destruction, to show how hopelessly ineffective even nuclear bomb would be if detonated out of it's effective altitude. I never would have even dreamed about that such wild speculation would have been defended and suggested in this thread by anyone. I guess i was wrong.

gabriel pagliarani
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1 bomb x month

Post by gabriel pagliarani » 03 Oct 2002 22:54

Mark V,
I don' t know exactly the reason, but there was not really the possibility of a third experiment (experiment..this is my unchanged opinion: your arguments are too weak..) before 1946. In my opinion it was not related to the exponential-law increasing capability to produce nukes by USA but it was due to logistics: japanese submarines attacked the ships carrying the bomb to Tinian and a cruiser was lost and sharks killed large amount of the crew. Therefore the 1st target of the remains of Jap fleet were the ships carrying the bomb, in late 1945. The supply line of the bombs to Tinian had to be changed ASAP. I feel some interest in your 5 psi over-pressure theory: if you'll deserve your aggressive abitual habits, I could exchange this info with all the additive theory about critical mass and related non isotropical implosive geometries used on light weight ignitors mounted on actual war heads... A good exchange in my opinion.. About supposed wild speculations what is wrong in them? This is brain-storming.

Logan Hartke
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Post by Logan Hartke » 03 Oct 2002 23:14

Study your history. You're taking bits and pieces of things that you've read here and there and putting them together to form the "Gabriel Thesis".

#1-America is able to get massive fleets of EVERYTHING to the other side of th atlantic, but can't get something the size of a crate of C-rations over there?

#2-The Japanese can't even figure out that the Americans have two bombs or their capabilities, yet are able to successfully pinpoint and intercept the ship that is carrying the bomb?

#3-"Therefore the 1st target of the remains of Jap fleet were the ships carrying the bomb, in late 1945." WHAT?!?!? As I said before, the IJN commanders didn't even grasp the significance of the bombs AFTER they were dropped, let alone BEFORE.

Study EVERYTHING you've commented on so far, and then come back.

Logan Hartke

Logan Hartke
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Post by Logan Hartke » 03 Oct 2002 23:24

Also, your info on the USS Indianapolis is incorrect. The ship was torpedoed AFTER it had delivered the bomb in an event completely unrelated to the atomic bomb.
After repairs and overhaul, Indianapolis received orders to proceed at high speed to Tinian, carrying parts and nuclear material to be used in the atomic bombs which were soon to be dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Due to the urgency of her mission, Indianapolis departed San Francisco on 16 July, foregoing her post repair shake - down period. touching at Pearl Harbor 19 July, she raced on unescorted and arrived Tinian 26 July, having set a record in covering some 5000 miles from San Francisco in only 10 days.

After delivering her top - secret cargo at Tinian, Indianapolis was dispatched to Guam where she disembarked men and reported for onward routine to Lye. From there she was to report to Vice Admiral Jesse B. Oldendorf for further duty off Okinawa. Departing Guam 28 July, Indianapolis proceeded by direct route unescorted. Early in the morning, 12:15 A.M., 30 July 1945, two heavy explosions occurred against her starboard side forward, she capsized and sank in 12 minutes, at 12 degrees 02 minutes N., 134 degrees 48 minutes E. Indianapolis had been hit by two torpedoes from the Imperial Japanese Navy submarine I-58, Commander Machitsura Hashimoto commanding. The seas had been moderate; the visibility, limited, Indianapolis had been steaming at 17 knots. When the ship did not reach Leyte on the 31st, as scheduled, no report was made that she was overdue. This omission was due to a misunderstanding of the Movement Report System. Thus it was not until 1025 on 2 August that the survivors were sighted, mostly held afloat by life jackets, although there were a few rafts which had been cut loose before the ship went down. they were sighted by an aircraft on routine patrol; the pilot, Lieutenant Wilbur C. Gwinn, immediately dropped a life raft and a radio transmitter. All air and surface units capable of rescue operations were dispatched to the scene at once, and the surrounding waters were thoroughly searched for survivors.

http://members.tripod.com/IndyMaru/indymaru2.htm

Logan Hartke

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Ando
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Post by Ando » 04 Oct 2002 00:06

I have just read the book In Harms Way its about the sinking of the USS Indianapolis. They delivered the bomb without incident and after that on the way to a training exercise was unlucky to be hit by a japanese sub that just happened to be in the area. They had no escort and werent classed as missing till 3 days later, thats why there was so many deaths.

gabriel pagliarani
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A-bomb sunken?

Post by gabriel pagliarani » 04 Oct 2002 14:18

There is an A-bomb in the depths of the Pacific? I never said this. If the bomb was throwed as it happened OBVIOUSLY the ship carrying it to Air base was sunk after delivery. :lol: Click..click..your brain gears, Logan, are finally working?.....but the SECRET about the supply lines was lost if a jap submarine was waiting the INDIANAPOLIS on his own SECRET route. Jap subs had not RADAR or SONAR, therefore japs were waiting on the route. Someone could think that submarine was there "casually" as tourists while Japan was loosing the war? A lot of people on the ship sunken was killed consequenly by sharks + radio shut-up necessary to keep secret the route. This fact caused the tragedy. The ships could be easily changed, the SECRET about the delivery not. Finally understood or it is too hard for you? This is all the cryticism available about "gabriel's theory", as you said ? Theory about what? The bomb? The time? The ceiling? The secret ?More ideas, less hormones from you.

Logan Hartke
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Re: A-bomb sunken?

Post by Logan Hartke » 04 Oct 2002 17:57

gabriel pagliarani wrote:There is an A-bomb in the depths of the Pacific? I never said this. If the bomb was throwed as it happened OBVIOUSLY the ship carrying it to Air base was sunk after delivery. :lol: Click..click..your brain gears, Logan, are finally working?.....but the SECRET about the supply lines was lost if a jap submarine was waiting the INDIANAPOLIS on his own SECRET route. Jap subs had not RADAR or SONAR, therefore japs were waiting on the route. Someone could think that submarine was there "casually" as tourists while Japan was loosing the war? A lot of people on the ship sunken was killed consequenly by sharks + radio shut-up necessary to keep secret the route. This fact caused the tragedy. The ships could be easily changed, the SECRET about the delivery not. Finally understood or it is too hard for you? This is all the cryticism available about "gabriel's theory", as you said ? Theory about what? The bomb? The time? The ceiling? The secret ?More ideas, less hormones from you.

That is the biggest load of BS I've ever heard. I give you sources that say that the ship was unlucky and you give me crap theories. Where's your proof? I've seen 2 hr-long documentaries on the sinking and NOWHERE does it mention the Japanese sub intentionally sinking it. The book doesn't say it, in fact, this is the first time I've ever heard anyone mention it. ARGH! I am done here. You never have ANY sources so, leave and don't come back until you have REAL history. YOU HAVE NO SOURCES! A route in the Pacific is NEVER secret, that's why subs have to PATROL. They call their missions PATROLS, because they don't ambush things; they PATROL until they find them. Come back with PROOF instead of NONSENSE!

Logan Hartke

gabriel pagliarani
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Torpedoed not unlucky

Post by gabriel pagliarani » 04 Oct 2002 21:03

Logan Hartke,
Indianapolis was torpedoed, not unlucky. It had to be unlucky if it were sunk by a tempest (an event linked to weather not a british plane: I must be as much precise as possible with a so much "misunderstanding" person as you are), a torpedo has nothing to do with luck. Pacific Ocean covers 33% of the whole surface of earth having radius 6378 Km. If S is the surface of Pacific Sea (S=4/3*3.1416*6378*6378=170395310 squared km), in the while a submarine has ony 20km as range of sight therefore a spot which area is s.(s=20*20*3.1416= 1257 square Km) Consequently S/s=135596 or there was 1 chance the submarine had to meet the Indianapolis against 135595 chances Indianapolis had in avoiding it. Most probable an ambush than "unluck" situation! Logan, the more you argue the more you are bilious. What does it mean AAARGHH? An heart-ache? Eat less red meat, it is dangerous for your health and it will change your abitual bad manners.
PLS go to this site:

http://www.ussindianapolis.org/

"...the Navy knew there were submarines in the area but never told McVay and sent the ship to sea unescorted ... Worse, the Navy failed to notice that the cruiser had never arrived at port, while hundreds died at sea."
Excerpt from May 3, 1998, article entitled "A Boy's School Project Aims to Revise History" in The New York Times

The Worst Naval Disaster in US History

At 12:14 a.m. on July 30, 1945, the USS Indianapolis was torpedoed by a Japanese submarine in the Philippine Sea and sank in 12 minutes. Of 1,196 men on board, approximately 300 went down with the ship. The remainder, about 900 men, were left floating in shark-infested waters with no lifeboats and most with no food or water. The ship was never missed, and by the time the survivors were spotted by accident four days later only 316 men were still alive. The ship's captain, the late Charles Butler McVay III, survived and was court-martialed and convicted of "hazarding his ship by failing to zigzag" despite overwhelming evidence that the Navy itself had placed the ship in harm's way, despite testimony from the Japanese submarine commander that zigzagging would have made no difference, and despite that fact that, although over 350 navy ships were lost in combat in WWII, McVay was the only captain to be court-martialed. Materials declassified years later adds to the evidence that McVay was a scapegoat for the mistakes of others.In October of 2000, following years of effort by the survivors and their supporters, legislation was passed in Washington and signed by President Clinton expressing the sense of Congress, among other things, that Captain McVay's record should now reflect that he is exonerated for the loss of the Indianapolis and for the death of her crew who were lost.In July of 2001 the Navy Department announced that Captain McVay's record has been amended to exonerate him for the loss of the Indianapolis and the lives of those who perished as a result of her sinking. The action was taken by Secretary of the Navy Gordon R. England who was persuaded to do so by New Hampshire Senator Bob Smith, a strong advocate of McVay's innocence. The survivors are deeply grateful to Secretary England and Senator Smith and also to young Hunter Scott of Pensacola, Florida, without whom the injustice to Captain McVay would never have been brought to the attention of the media and the Congress.Unfortunately, the conviction for hazarding his ship by failing to zigzag remains on Captain McVay's record. Never in the history of the U.S. military has the verdict of a court-martial been overturned, and there is no known process for doing so.It can be stated unequivocally, however, that, if the Indianapolis had arrived safely at Leyte without incident, Captain McVay would never have been court-martialed. Thus, by exonerating him for the loss of the ship and the death of 880 of her crew members, the Navy Department has at last conceded that he was innocent of any wrong-doing. His exoneration is tantamount to an admission that he should never have been court-martialed in the first place.The survivors are thankful that after 56 years the good name of their captain has been cleared. Please browse our site for more in-depth information.
Important News and Information
Sept 2002: "Only 317 Survived"
A new book by the Survivors Organization is due out at the first of November. Its will be called "Only 317 Survived" and will be a collection of all the survivors stories. The organization is very excited about this. August 8 2002: A scholarship fund has been set up for the grand children of survivors.The USS Indianapolis Survivors' Fund is a non-profit, charitable fund established by Doug Stanton, author of In Harm's Way, in December 2001.The fund is to honor the men of the USS Indianapolis

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To Mark V,
enclosed a sketch from Encicopedia Generale de Agostini, a fine publication for kids free at italian Exxon pump. This must be enough for your pretended skillness. Now ask more infos to Logan, if he is able to do.
Last edited by gabriel pagliarani on 10 Oct 2002 14:42, edited 10 times in total.

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