First atomic bomb was German !?!

Discussions on the equipment used by the Axis forces, apart from the things covered in the other sections. Hosted by Juha Tompuri
paulrward
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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by paulrward » 10 Apr 2022 04:39

Hello All :

I have to comment here: I am an Engineer by training and profession, and, reading the excerpt
on the V101 provided by Mr. Schlappgug, I immediately noted that the weight of the three
stage missile was 140 tons, and the thrust of the first stage was ..... 100 tons.....

Yeah. This means that this missile, if it had ever been built, would have sat there on the
launch pad, huffing and puffing, and never moving an inch. To get a rocket into the
air, the Thrust of the Rocket Engine must EXCEED the weight of the rocket, by a considerable
amount !
For example, the Atlas had a total weight with fuel of about 260,000 lbs, and
a total liftoff thrust of about 300,000 lbs. ( if you ran all three engines at liftoff, you would
have about 360,000 lbs of thrust ) Thus, with the thrust-to-weight ratio exceeding unity,
the rocket would lift off the ground.

The V101 ? Not so much.....

What does this mean ? I am afraid that, all things considered, this story of a German Nuclear
Weapons Program, with a hitherto unknown and never located German Super Rocket Booster
Program, belongs in the category of

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vpqffgak7To


Respectfully :

Paul R. Ward
Information not shared, is information lost
Voices that are banned, are voices who cannot share information....
Discussions that are silenced, are discussions that will occur elsewhere !

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T. A. Gardner
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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by T. A. Gardner » 10 Apr 2022 05:25

Well, the Germans were constrained by having a pretty crappy selection of rocket fuels--both solid and liquid--to choose from...

They had nothing comparable to GALCIT 53 as a solid fuel for example

https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... S_Rocketry
https://www.k-makris.gr/composite-solid-propelants/
http://nopr.niscair.res.in/bitstream/12 ... 99-911.pdf

If anything, the US was way ahead of Germany in developing and using solid rocket fuels in 1944 -45. Most German research was centered on liquid fuels, and even there they were limited by available types of chemicals they could use. For example, they couldn't use LOX + Gasoline as a fuel because gasoline was in critically short supply. Thus, the choice of alcohol which is much less efficient for the V2.

Also, I'm still curious how the Germans hid from reconnaissance aircraft the construction of several 10-story missile silos and associated facilities, all underground. The cited book earlier in the thread said the V-101 was 30 meters long. That's roughly a 10-story rocket.

Schlappgug
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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by Schlappgug » 10 Apr 2022 09:37

Are you joking? Germany had P.E.R. that was much more modern than Galcit 53.
P.E.R. by IG Farben (BASF) was even castable in very thin layers due to an excellent lower pressure reaction!
Most post war solid propellants in USSR and USA based on Dr. Teichmanns work.
You are right, the value ​​​​for the thrust of the first stage are incorrectly stated in the book,
the weight of the solid propellant in the first V101 stage is 100 tons and this IG Farben solid fuel was named P.E.R. ...the thrust of the stage is unknown,
but we can assume that the researchers Dr. Rolf Engel, Dr. Uwe Tim Bödewadt and Dr. Teichmann etc...knew their trade very well. And we have witnesses that the rocket started and worked well.
The Americans and Russians captured all the files about the secret Skoda developments.
We dont know any further details about the V101 and its solid fuel rocket engines.
Most american and russian ICBM missiles based on German developments.
I am sure that the german P.E.R. (synthetic BASF polymerized!) solid fuel worked pretty good.
The P.E.R fuel contained Trolitul (Polystryrol) and Oppanol 200 (Polyisobutene) Ratio 60:40 plus Ammoniumperchlorat NH4ClO4 and thats not a double base propellant. And we still dont know the latest 1944/45 state of development because the upper formular was from early 44.
( Synthetic polymer = Polystyrol was used in the German rocket fuel instead of tar/asphalt used in US solid fuel of that era....http://www.kunststoff-museum-troisdorf. ... l_1961.pdf

USA did not use synthetic polymers in castable propellants untill end of the 1940s when they captured and copied the modern formulas from Germany.
Image
Last edited by Schlappgug on 10 Apr 2022 20:04, edited 19 times in total.

Michael Kenny
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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by Michael Kenny » 10 Apr 2022 10:42

Schlappgug wrote:
10 Apr 2022 09:37

but we can assume.........
I am sure...........
I was under the mistaken belief that this thread could not have gotten any crazier. I was wrong. The last 3 pages makes the preceding 77 seem quite scholarly !
I note the new poster only joined 2 days ago

Schlappgug
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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by Schlappgug » 10 Apr 2022 12:58

Well you cant tell me the name of one german rocket or nuclear scientist who did not knew his trade, they all were not paperclipped by accident and certainly not because they were stupid....your Nasa only exists because of these guys, soviet Roskosmos too :-)))))
Come on go to your archives and find the files to prove me wrong.
Do you know Oberst Reinhard Gehlen (Former Chief fremde Heere Ost) founder of the German Bundenachrichtedienst who worked closely together with the US and British intelligence services, during the 1970s he told that he was aware of the German nuclear program and the Ohrdruf tests.
Oh I forgot he was a stupid too ;-))) You might also read about the german Wasserfall anti aircraft rocket built by the Zitwerke Zittau. This was the blueprint for most (Russian and US) post war anti aircraft missiles. And thats not my idea, most historians will agree.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by Sid Guttridge » 10 Apr 2022 16:01

Hi Schlappgug,

You say, "you cant tell me the name of one german rocket or nuclear scientist who did not knew his trade". How about Ronald Richter, who claimed to have achieved cold fusion in Argentina in 1951?

The problem is not that anyone is denying the general competence of German nuclear and other scientists. That is a diversionary invention on your part to avoid addressing more substantive questions.

What is at question here is what practical results they actually achieved during WWII, not as part of post-war US or Soviet programmes.

You and others here have claimed that Germany conducted 3/4 nuclear tests during the last year of WWII, but have offered no substantive evidence of it. Such over claims now are the problem, not the general quality of German scientists at the time.

Cheers,

Sid.

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T. A. Gardner
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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by T. A. Gardner » 10 Apr 2022 16:55

Schlappgug wrote:
10 Apr 2022 12:58
Well you cant tell me the name of one german rocket or nuclear scientist who did not knew his trade, they all were not paperclipped by accident and certainly not because they were stupid....your Nasa only exists because of these guys, soviet Roskosmos too :-)))))
Come on go to your archives and find the files to prove me wrong.
Do you know Oberst Reinhard Gehlen (Former Chief fremde Heere Ost) founder of the German Bundenachrichtedienst who worked closely together with the US and British intelligence services, during the 1970s he told that he was aware of the German nuclear program and the Ohrdruf tests.
Oh I forgot he was a stupid too ;-))) You might also read about the german Wasserfall anti aircraft rocket built by the Zitwerke Zittau. This was the blueprint for most (Russian and US) post war anti aircraft missiles. And thats not my idea, most historians will agree.
And, at least in the US, the Paperclip German scientists were largely limited to US Army ballistic missile development and little else in postwar US missile developments. They played an insignificant role in:

SAM development. In fact, in the US, German wartime research in this area was limited to GE firing just six (6) Wasserfall (with only one successful launch) as part of Project Hermes before abandoning that missile as unworkable. Wasserfall was also rejected by the Russians (R101 to R105 missiles) too after nearly five years of trying to get it to work. They then went with a clean sheet of paper designing the successful S-25 Berkut. Wasserfall had ZERO impact on the USAF GAPA then BOMARC SAM systems, ZERO input into USN project Bumblebee that resulted in Talos, Terrier, and Tartar missiles, and ZERO input into the US Army's Nike program.
Earlier USN SAM programs like Little Joe and Lark had ZERO input from any German wartime research as they were already well advanced when the war ended.

USAF and USN ballistic missile development. The USAF program started with project MX 774 HIROC and the US engineers rejected everything the Germans did with the V2 as sloppy and inefficient. Convair's airframe engineer, Charles Bossart designed an entirely new airframe for HIROC using integral tanks, something that is still used virtually universally in ballistic missiles today. It had nothing to do with any German wartime design.
Hughes developed the Azuza guidance system for it that remained in use through the Atlas program and into the 70's with NASA. The Russians largely copied it for their ballistic missile program. It was based entirely on US developed radar and radio technologies and had ZERO input from German technology in that area. It was completely different from anything the Germans tried during WW 2 in missile guidance.

In USAF and USN cruise missile development German input pretty much ended with early use of V-1 copies for testing. Nothing about that missile was subsequently used in later designs that again, had little or no input from German engineers or scientists.

Oh, the fuel you described above? That is a very close match for GALCIT 27 which produces about 450% less energy to weight compared to GALCIT 53.

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by Richard Anderson » 10 Apr 2022 17:07

Michael Kenny wrote:
10 Apr 2022 10:42
Schlappgug wrote:
10 Apr 2022 09:37

but we can assume.........
I am sure...........
I was under the mistaken belief that this thread could not have gotten any crazier. I was wrong. The last 3 pages makes the preceding 77 seem quite scholarly !
I note the new poster only joined 2 days ago
You beat me to it.

Now we have the Germans constructing "ICBM silos" for ICBM's they did not have. All "proven" by random photos and walls of text.
"Is all this pretentious pseudo intellectual citing of sources REALLY necessary? It gets in the way of a good, spirited debate, destroys the cadence." POD, 6 October 2018

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T. A. Gardner
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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by T. A. Gardner » 10 Apr 2022 17:40

Richard Anderson wrote:
10 Apr 2022 17:07
Michael Kenny wrote:
10 Apr 2022 10:42
Schlappgug wrote:
10 Apr 2022 09:37

but we can assume.........
I am sure...........
I was under the mistaken belief that this thread could not have gotten any crazier. I was wrong. The last 3 pages makes the preceding 77 seem quite scholarly !
I note the new poster only joined 2 days ago
You beat me to it.

Now we have the Germans constructing "ICBM silos" for ICBM's they did not have. All "proven" by random photos and walls of text.
Don't forget meaningless cut and paste pages from books and graphs! :D

Richard Anderson
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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by Richard Anderson » 10 Apr 2022 18:12

T. A. Gardner wrote:
10 Apr 2022 17:40
Richard Anderson wrote:
10 Apr 2022 17:07
Michael Kenny wrote:
10 Apr 2022 10:42
Schlappgug wrote:
10 Apr 2022 09:37

but we can assume.........
I am sure...........
I was under the mistaken belief that this thread could not have gotten any crazier. I was wrong. The last 3 pages makes the preceding 77 seem quite scholarly !
I note the new poster only joined 2 days ago
You beat me to it.

Now we have the Germans constructing "ICBM silos" for ICBM's they did not have. All "proven" by random photos and walls of text.
Don't forget meaningless cut and paste pages from books and graphs! :D
What meaningless? In two minutes I found the sekret photos of the Nazi Rocket Cats and Pigeons that PROVE they won the war.

Image
"Is all this pretentious pseudo intellectual citing of sources REALLY necessary? It gets in the way of a good, spirited debate, destroys the cadence." POD, 6 October 2018

Schlappgug
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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by Schlappgug » 10 Apr 2022 18:48

Dr. Ronald Richter was a brilliant scientists he accidentally discovered plasma shock wave phenomenon of exploding arcs caused by cable breakage during experiments with carbide arc furnaces, Brunner company, Bohemia
November 18, 1939

He discovered the exchange reactions and reaction chains for hydrogen and neutron bombs as well as for gamma flash bombs
December 1944

He First injected LiH into a shock wave hydrogen plasma, Trials at the AEG transformer factory, Berlin-Schoenweide
January 1945...

These are proven facts you can read in official history books of physics.

We dont know what he did in Argentinia, maybe he became mad due to lead or radiation poisoning....

Schlappgug
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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by Schlappgug » 10 Apr 2022 19:01

Well the American Hermes was just a copy of the Wasserfall....

Hermes program

The first Hermes A-1 test rocket, fired at White Sands Proving Ground
Function A-1: Experimental
Manufacturer A-1 (1946): General Electric[1]
Country of origin United States
Size
Height A-1: 300 in (7.6 m)
A-3B: 396 in (10.1 m)[1]
Diameter A-1: 34+5⁄8 in (88 cm)
A-3B: 47 in (120 cm)[1]
Mass A-1: 3,000 lb (1,400 kg)
A-3B: 5,139 lb (2,331 kg)[1]
Launch history
Status Retired
Launch sites White Sands Proving Ground
Total launches 58[2]
Failure(s) A-3B: 1 (1953–1954)[1]
Boosters
Thrust A-3B: 22,600 pounds-force (101,000 N)[1]
[edit on Wikidata]

Project Hermes was a missile research program run by the Ordnance Corps of the United States Army from November 15, 1944 to December 31, 1954 in response to Germany's rocket attacks in Europe during the Second World War.[3] The program was to determine the missile needs of army field forces. A research and development partnership between the Ordnance Corps and General Electric started November 20, 1944[4] and resulted in the "development of long-range missiles that could be used against both ground targets and high-altitude aircraft."[5]
Contents

1 History
2 Hermes II
3 Hermes B
4 The Surface to Air and Surface to Surface Missiles
5 See also
6 References
6.1 Citations
6.2 Bibliography

History

Hermes was the second missile program by the United States Army. In May 1944 the Army contracted with the California Institute of Technology's Guggenheim Aeronautical Laboratories to start the ORDCIT project to research, test and develop guided missiles.[6] The Hermes program was to originally have three phases: the first would be a literature search, the second a research group would be dispatched to Europe to investigate the German Missiles, and the third "would design and develop its own experimental systems."[7]

Basically, this project covered every phase of missile technology with the exception of large-scale development and production of warheads and fuzes. However, ... these many areas may be grouped within three general categories, namely, the A1 and A2 missiles, the A3 missiles, and all other Hermes missiles and supporting research.
— John W. Bullard[7]

On November 20, 1944, the Ordnance Corps signed a contract with General Electric.[4][5] "The contractor agreed to perform investigations, research, experiments, design, development, and engineering work in connection with the development of long-range missiles for use against ground targets and high-altitude aircraft."[7] General Electric was also to investigate ramjets, solid rocket motors, liquid propellant rocket engines, and hybrid propellants.[8] "The contract also required the General Electric Company to develop remote control equipment, ground equipment, fire control devices, and homing devices."[7]

In December 1944, the Hermes program was tasked with studying the German V-2 rocket. Subjects which were to be addressed were "transporting, handling, unpacking, classifying (identifying), reconditioning and testing components of German rockets as well as assembling and testing subassemblies and complete rockets, manufacturing new parts, modification of existing parts, conducting special tests, constructing temporary test equipment not available at the Proving Ground procuring and handling of propellants and supervision of launching rockets."[9]

The project's mandate created a need for an extensive area where missiles could be safely tested. The Army moved to create the White Sands Proving Grounds in south central New Mexico as a place to test the new missiles.[10]

When the United States Army captured the Peenemünde engineers, including Werner Von Braun, Dr. Richard W. Porter of Project Hermes was close behind.[11] Following the capture by American forces of the Mittelwerk V-2 factory, Special Mission V-2 swept in and scooped up enough components to assemble 100 V-2s. The components were quickly removed to New Mexico.[12] Three hundred rail cars of V-2 parts and documentation arrived at the White Sands Proving Grounds and General Electric personnel started the task of inventorying the components.[10] For the next five years overhauling and manufacture of parts, assembly, modification and launching V-2 rockets would be the major part of Project Hermes. Many of the V-2 components were in poor condition or unusable.[13]

After the German V-2 parts and technology were imported into the United States, the U. S. Army formed the Upper Atmosphere Research Panel in early 1946 to oversee experiments both about their technology and their use for upper atmosphere research. One-third of the panel members were General Electric scientists. The Hermes project was expanded to include testing of the V-2 sounding rockets.[3] General Electric employees, with the help of German specialists, assembled V-2s at White Sands Proving Grounds in New Mexico where the Army constructed a blockhouse and Launch Complex 33, now a National Historical Landmark.[14][15] The first V-2 launch there was on April 16, 1946 but reached only 3.4 miles' altitude. The maximum altitude reached by a Project Hermes V-2 was 114 miles achieved by V-2 #17 on 17 December 1946.[16] There were 58 standard V-2s, 6 Bumper" V-2s with a WAC Corporal second stage, and 4 drastically modified V-2s launched as Hermes IIs (Hermes B) by Project Hermes. The last Hermes flight was by V-2 #60 on 29 October 1951, carrying a Signal Corps Electronic Laboratory payload.[17] Most photos of American V-2s show the common white and black markings. The first two flown were painted in yellow and black. Others had combinations of white, black, silver and red. The last two fired by Project Hermes were black, white, and red with a big "Buy Bonds" logo (V-2 #52) and white, black, and silver with a small "Buy Bonds" logo.[18]

The Project Hermes V-2 program had achieved its objectives. First, it had gained experience in handling and firing large missiles and trained Army personnel to launch them (the last 4 American V-2 flights were not part of Project Hermes, they were Army launched "Training Flights"). Second, Hermes had provided vehicles for experiments which aided the design of future missiles. Third, Hermes had tested components for future missiles. Fourth, Hermes had obtained ballistic data on high-altitude trajectories as well as developing various means of tracking such trajectories. Fifth, the V-2 program had provided vehicles for upper atmosphere and biological research.[19] Additionally many components had to be manufactured due to shortages and deteriorated condition. Most notable was the inertial guidance system and mix computer.[20] After the termination of V-2 flights by Hermes there were 5 final flights by V-2s from White Sands. They were training flights launched by Detachment 2 of the 1st Guided Missile Support Battalion.[21] Between 22 August 1951 and 19 September 1952 the 74th and final flight of a V-2 from White Sands was launched.[22]
Hermes II

The initial goals of Project Hermes included Hermes B, a ramjet-powered cruise missile. Hermes B was soon split into a Hermes B-1 test vehicle and a Hermes B-2 operational missile. Hermes B-1 soon evolved into Hermes II.[23] In June 1946 General Electric's contract was amended to include a two-stage missile which used a V-2 as its first stage, with a ramjet-powered supersonic cruise missile as the second stage.[16] The ramjet was assigned to the Von Braun team of which less than 40 were employed in the V-2 launching program.[14] Design on the ramjet began on 10 December 1945. The Von Braun team dubbed the ramjet the "Comet."[24] Though the Peenemüunde engineers had no experience with ramjets, and some members were scattered across the country, work progressed. On 11 January 1946 Von Braun presented his cruise missile design to Major General Barnes and the program was underway.[25] Hermes II (aka RTV-G-3 & RV-A-3) was an attempt to produce a high-velocity ramjet-powered cruise missile. A V-2 would boost the cruise missile called the "Comet," or "Ram." to mach 3.3 at 66,000 feet where the ramjets would start.[26] The Hermes II was an unusual design. It had two rectangular "wings" which doubled as the ramjets. It was described as a "two-dimensional, split-wing ramjet.[26] The Hermes II, with its large rectangular wings, required enlarged tail fins. Still aerodynamic data was scant, and indicated that the Hermes II was unstable at most velocities which required more development of the guidance system.[27] Another concern was the fuel intended, carbon disulfide, which was easy to ignite, but had a low specific impulse.[26] At peak employment the Hermes II program employed 125 Germans, 30 Army officers, 400 enlisted personnel, 75–100 civil service personnel and 175 G.E. employees.[28]

A V-2 was modified to carry a test device called the "Organ," a series of test diffusers (ramjet air intakes) which was to make measurements of pressures. That first Hermes II test missile (missile 0) was launched on 29 May 1947 and landed in Mexico causing an international incident.[27] WSPG V-2 #44 carried a test ramjet diffuser. The successful flight returned data from Mach 3.6 and made GE confident it could proceed with a two-stage test.[29] Progress was slow which frustrated Von Braun.[30] The next Hermes II, (missile 1), the first to have the wings containing the ramjets, was launched by GE on 13 January 1949 and broke up shortly after liftoff due to unanticipated vibrations.[27] There were two further Hermes flights missile #2 on 6 October 1949, which suffered the fate of missile 1. Missile 2-A on November 9, 1950.[17] Missile 2-A did not break up, but the ramjet never started.[31] When the Von Braun team transferred to Redstone Arsenal in Huntsville, Alabama, their primary mission was still a Mach 3.3 ramjet cruise missile.[32] In May 1950 Hermes II was reduced to research only status. At that time Ordnance transferred the Mach 4 Hermes B from the General Electric grounds to Huntsville.[26][31] September 1950 saw General Electric's Hermes C-1 study transferred to Huntsville where it evolved into the very successful PGM-11 Redstone short-range ballistic missile.[32] The Hermes ramjet cruise missile faded into obscure history as it was terminated in 1953.[33]
Hermes B

Hermes B was a Mach 4 ramjet-powered cruise missile design study undertaken by General Electric.[34] It was later transferred to the Von Braun team at the Redstone Arsenal.[31] Hermes B was also designated SSM-G-9 and SSM-A-9.[23]
The Surface to Air and Surface to Surface Missiles

The development of the 25-foot (7.6 m) Hermes A-1 (CTV-G-5/RV-A-5) rocket was begun by General Electric in 1946. Constructed mostly of steel, it was an American version of the German Wasserfall anti-aircraft missile; the latter was about half the size of the German V-2 rocket.[23] The Wasserfall's aerodynamic shape was later adopted for the North American NATIV. Hermes A-1 had one major difference from the Wasserfall. The Peenemünde nitric acid/visol (vinyl isobutyl ether)-fueled P IX engine was replaced by a General Electric pressure fed 13,500 lb. thrust liquid oxygen/alcohol-fueled engine.[35][36] Beginning in 1947, the engine of the A-1 was tested at General Electric's Malta Test Station in New York.[37] The General Electric engine had a novel fuel injector which had great influence on future engine development in the United States. Combustion instability problems delayed engine development.[38]

Hermes A-1 components such as guidance and telemetry were tested on several V-2 flights at White Sands Proving Grounds in 1947 and 1948.[39] Plans to develop Hermes A-1 as an operational surface to air missile were dropped in favor of the more suitable Nike.[40] On 18 May 1950 the Army switched emphasis for Project Hermes to the surface to surface mission. The next day the Hermes A-1 first flew. The launch failed when thrust was lost shortly after lift-off.[39] The second flight failed after 41 seconds when the hydraulic servo covers were burned through by engine exhaust. None of the three subsequent Hermes A-1 flights were totally successful, though "they demonstrated the functional capability of the missile system."[39] Those last three launches achieved apogees of 14 miles.[41]

The demise of the Hermes A-1 did not end two other design studies. Work on the Hermes A-1E-1 and Hermes A-1E-2 continued. They were tactical missile designs 25 and 29 feet (7.6 and 8.8 m) long, respectively. Both were to have 1,450-pound (660 kg) warheads. The competing Corporal (XSSM—G-7/XSSN-A-7) showed better development and Hermes A-1E-2 was cancelled in April 1952 and was followed by the A-1E-1 in October of that year.[39]

The original Hermes A-2 was projected to be a wingless A-1, but that missile was abandoned to be followed by another rocket called A-2 (RV-A-10). The RV-A10 was a short range solid fuel test vehicle, with plans to develop a tactical missile (SSM-A-13), which were soon abandoned.[23]

The slightly larger Hermes A-3A (SSM-G-8, RV-A-8) followed.[23] Progress on the Hermes A-3 until it was divided into an A-3A (RV-A-8) test vehicle and the A-3B (SSM-A-16) which was intended to be an operational missile with a W-5 nuclear warhead.[42] A total of seven RV-A-8 were launches and five of them were either partial or total failures.[23]

The A-3B (SS-A-16) was slightly larger than the RV-A-8 and the last produced and tested vehicle of the Hermes missile program.[23][43] It was designed as a tactical surface-to-surface missile carrying a 1,000-pound (450 kg) warhead with a 150-mile (240 km) range but never achieved that range in practice. It had a thrust of 22,600 pounds-force (101,000 N). By 1954 six A-3Bs were test launched at White Sands, with five of the launches performed successfully. One of the developments of the Hermes A-3 program was the first inertial guidance system tested on a ballistic missile.[44][45] None of the Hermes missiles became operational, but did provide experience in the design, construction, and handling of large-scale missiles and rocket engines. The Hermes program was canceled in 1954.[23]

There were Hermes missiles which never flew. Work on a ramjet cruise missile continued after the end of the RTV-3 program. It was an ambitious program intended to produce a cruise missile, the Hermes II the RV-A-6 (Hermes B-1?), cable of flying mach 4.5 at 2,500 miles per hour (4,000 km/h) at 80,000 feet (24,000 m). There was a SS-G-9, Hermes B-2 which was never built.[23]

The Hermes C program was composed of a series of studies, one of which was the Hermes C-1, which led directly to the SM-A-14 (GM-11) Redstone.[46]

Sid Guttridge
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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by Sid Guttridge » 10 Apr 2022 19:06

Hi Guys,

On an earlier thread, several of us investigated other special German WWII weapons projects, after poster Otto Fuch suggested that the Waffen-SS had developed a springing battlefield tactic called the "Panthersprung". As part of a collaborative effort with others on AHF, I researched the equipment necessary to implement this::

"The Pogo Stick. A German patent was registered March 1920 to Max Pohlig and Ernst Gottschall in Hanover for a device they called a "spring end hopping stilt" (Federenden-Hopfenstelze). It is thought that the beginning two letters in these men's last names is where the name Pogo comes from.

If Pohlig or Gottschall were NSDAP, or even SS, members, we have the beginnings of a circumstantial link that may support Otto's proposition. Are the membership lists available on-line?

In addition, I have come across the following, admittedly post-war, German blueprint for a Pogo Stick:

http://inventors.about.com/library/inve ... _stick.htm

Is it not possible that the W-SS developed the Panthersprung as a means of using the Federenden-Hopfenstelze to maximum effect in combat and that this was, as Otto claims, an entirely original W-SS contribution to the military art?

One thing nobody is likely to deny: The element of surprise would certainly have been with the Waffen-SS on the Federenden-Hopfenstelze's early deployments.

There are certainly clear advantages when crossing anti-personnel minefields as the ferrule of the Federenden-Hopfenstelze would have been much smaller than a bootprint and so less likely to detonate. However, on the other hand, the much higher pound/square inch pressure might set off anti-tank mines that a normal footfall would not.

Moreover, I foresee tactical problems in sandy or muddy terrain. Does this, perhaps, explain why the Waffen-SS was never deployed in North Africa or the Pripet Marshes?

The shafts of early Federenden-Hopfenstelzen were made from wood, a non-strategic material. Therefore the production would not have detracted from other weaponry or means of transport - a vital consideration in Germany's beleaguered wartime situation.

I have never come across dedicated FeHo or PoGo units, so I deduce the Federenden-Hopfenstelze would have been issued to specialists, much as, say, snipers' rifles were.

It occurs to me that the Federenden-Hopfenstelze may have gobne through considerable development and we may need to look for the FeHO.II, or III, or even a heavy Pz.FeHo or a lighter FJFeHo. Any ideas?

O.K., I accept the evidence is so far circumstantial or merely speculative, but I suspect that, given the expertise here on AHF, it is likely to grow rapidly.

Otto may just be onto something
."

Poster Harro did his own research:

"I've heared rumours that the problem of the lacking offroad performance of the pogo-stick led to the development of the Sd.Kfz. 3.2 "Känguruh", an ingenious ball-like device with a handle on top, which drastically improved the Geländefähigkeit of the jumping Waffen-SS men even on snow. KstN 8413c shows the composition of the Känguruh-equipped "Hüpfballschützenzug" with 8413d being the "Hüpfballschützenhalbzug" and 8414c being the "Hüpfballaufklärungszug". Each "Hüpfballschützenzug" consisted of three squads with the fourth squad being a "Trampolintrupp" equipped with the leichten Sonder-Trampolin (Sd.Tln. 1a) developed to quickly overcome barbed wire and other obstacles to which the Sd.Kfz. 3.2 proved vulnerable."

Poster Max Payload contributed this personal insight:

"These are not rumours. A friend of mine has a cousin whose grandfather was part of the original "Känguruh" R&D project near Leipzig, and who was present in April 1942 when Himmler witnessed an assault simulation by the first "Hüpfballschützenzug". The suppression of knowledge of such an innovative infantry assault tactic for more that 70 years is a disgrace. Only when the US and Russian archives are fully open to public scrutiny will the contribution of the jumping panthers of the W-SS to battlefield assault tactics be fully appreciated."

However, I was sceptical:

"Come on guys, let's get serious.

A single box of liberally strewn drawing pins would bring any Hüpfball assault to to a deflated standstill in seconds.

The average Soviet primary school could have held off half a dozen Hüpfballschützenzuge for weeks unassisted.

Next you are going to tell me that the cunning Waffen-SS had already thought of this and there was a Kampfrasenrolle attached to every Hüpfballschützenzug!
"

Sadly this highly innovative and promising piece of research petered out after this, despite the provision of several original blueprints and an anecdotal, third hand, claimed possible witness statement, maybe.

Cheers,

Sid.

Schlappgug
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Location: Germany

Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by Schlappgug » 10 Apr 2022 19:24

We see here that Galcit 27 was not castable....so you cant compare the old type 27 with the 1944 german P.E.R. and KCIO4 used as reactant in Galcit 53 is not better than the german reactant Nh4clo4...just different.
its not about fast burning or high pressure burning when it comes to castable solid propellants, its all about controlled burn speed and lower pressure reaction so you can cast very thin layers. The trick is finiding the best compromise between fast and powefull reaction and controllable layer manufacturing.

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T. A. Gardner
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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by T. A. Gardner » 10 Apr 2022 20:46

Schlappgug wrote:
10 Apr 2022 19:01
Well the American Hermes was just a copy of the Wasserfall....

Hermes program

The first Hermes A-1 test rocket, fired at White Sands Proving Ground
Function A-1: Experimental
Manufacturer A-1 (1946): General Electric[1]
Country of origin United States
Size
Height A-1: 300 in (7.6 m)
A-3B: 396 in (10.1 m)[1]
Diameter A-1: 34+5⁄8 in (88 cm)
A-3B: 47 in (120 cm)[1]
Mass A-1: 3,000 lb (1,400 kg)
A-3B: 5,139 lb (2,331 kg)[1]
Launch history
Status Retired
Launch sites White Sands Proving Ground
Total launches 58[2]
Failure(s) A-3B: 1 (1953–1954)[1]
Boosters
Thrust A-3B: 22,600 pounds-force (101,000 N)[1]
[edit on Wikidata]

Project Hermes was a missile research program run by the Ordnance Corps of the United States Army from November 15, 1944 to December 31, 1954 in response to Germany's rocket attacks in Europe during the Second World War.[3] The program was to determine the missile needs of army field forces. A research and development partnership between the Ordnance Corps and General Electric started November 20, 1944[4] and resulted in the "development of long-range missiles that could be used against both ground targets and high-altitude aircraft."[5]
Contents

1 History
2 Hermes II
3 Hermes B
4 The Surface to Air and Surface to Surface Missiles
5 See also
6 References
6.1 Citations
6.2 Bibliography

History

Hermes was the second missile program by the United States Army. In May 1944 the Army contracted with the California Institute of Technology's Guggenheim Aeronautical Laboratories to start the ORDCIT project to research, test and develop guided missiles.[6] The Hermes program was to originally have three phases: the first would be a literature search, the second a research group would be dispatched to Europe to investigate the German Missiles, and the third "would design and develop its own experimental systems."[7]

Basically, this project covered every phase of missile technology with the exception of large-scale development and production of warheads and fuzes. However, ... these many areas may be grouped within three general categories, namely, the A1 and A2 missiles, the A3 missiles, and all other Hermes missiles and supporting research.
— John W. Bullard[7]

On November 20, 1944, the Ordnance Corps signed a contract with General Electric.[4][5] "The contractor agreed to perform investigations, research, experiments, design, development, and engineering work in connection with the development of long-range missiles for use against ground targets and high-altitude aircraft."[7] General Electric was also to investigate ramjets, solid rocket motors, liquid propellant rocket engines, and hybrid propellants.[8] "The contract also required the General Electric Company to develop remote control equipment, ground equipment, fire control devices, and homing devices."[7]

In December 1944, the Hermes program was tasked with studying the German V-2 rocket. Subjects which were to be addressed were "transporting, handling, unpacking, classifying (identifying), reconditioning and testing components of German rockets as well as assembling and testing subassemblies and complete rockets, manufacturing new parts, modification of existing parts, conducting special tests, constructing temporary test equipment not available at the Proving Ground procuring and handling of propellants and supervision of launching rockets."[9]

The project's mandate created a need for an extensive area where missiles could be safely tested. The Army moved to create the White Sands Proving Grounds in south central New Mexico as a place to test the new missiles.[10]

When the United States Army captured the Peenemünde engineers, including Werner Von Braun, Dr. Richard W. Porter of Project Hermes was close behind.[11] Following the capture by American forces of the Mittelwerk V-2 factory, Special Mission V-2 swept in and scooped up enough components to assemble 100 V-2s. The components were quickly removed to New Mexico.[12] Three hundred rail cars of V-2 parts and documentation arrived at the White Sands Proving Grounds and General Electric personnel started the task of inventorying the components.[10] For the next five years overhauling and manufacture of parts, assembly, modification and launching V-2 rockets would be the major part of Project Hermes. Many of the V-2 components were in poor condition or unusable.[13]

After the German V-2 parts and technology were imported into the United States, the U. S. Army formed the Upper Atmosphere Research Panel in early 1946 to oversee experiments both about their technology and their use for upper atmosphere research. One-third of the panel members were General Electric scientists. The Hermes project was expanded to include testing of the V-2 sounding rockets.[3] General Electric employees, with the help of German specialists, assembled V-2s at White Sands Proving Grounds in New Mexico where the Army constructed a blockhouse and Launch Complex 33, now a National Historical Landmark.[14][15] The first V-2 launch there was on April 16, 1946 but reached only 3.4 miles' altitude. The maximum altitude reached by a Project Hermes V-2 was 114 miles achieved by V-2 #17 on 17 December 1946.[16] There were 58 standard V-2s, 6 Bumper" V-2s with a WAC Corporal second stage, and 4 drastically modified V-2s launched as Hermes IIs (Hermes B) by Project Hermes. The last Hermes flight was by V-2 #60 on 29 October 1951, carrying a Signal Corps Electronic Laboratory payload.[17] Most photos of American V-2s show the common white and black markings. The first two flown were painted in yellow and black. Others had combinations of white, black, silver and red. The last two fired by Project Hermes were black, white, and red with a big "Buy Bonds" logo (V-2 #52) and white, black, and silver with a small "Buy Bonds" logo.[18]

The Project Hermes V-2 program had achieved its objectives. First, it had gained experience in handling and firing large missiles and trained Army personnel to launch them (the last 4 American V-2 flights were not part of Project Hermes, they were Army launched "Training Flights"). Second, Hermes had provided vehicles for experiments which aided the design of future missiles. Third, Hermes had tested components for future missiles. Fourth, Hermes had obtained ballistic data on high-altitude trajectories as well as developing various means of tracking such trajectories. Fifth, the V-2 program had provided vehicles for upper atmosphere and biological research.[19] Additionally many components had to be manufactured due to shortages and deteriorated condition. Most notable was the inertial guidance system and mix computer.[20] After the termination of V-2 flights by Hermes there were 5 final flights by V-2s from White Sands. They were training flights launched by Detachment 2 of the 1st Guided Missile Support Battalion.[21] Between 22 August 1951 and 19 September 1952 the 74th and final flight of a V-2 from White Sands was launched.[22]
Hermes II

The initial goals of Project Hermes included Hermes B, a ramjet-powered cruise missile. Hermes B was soon split into a Hermes B-1 test vehicle and a Hermes B-2 operational missile. Hermes B-1 soon evolved into Hermes II.[23] In June 1946 General Electric's contract was amended to include a two-stage missile which used a V-2 as its first stage, with a ramjet-powered supersonic cruise missile as the second stage.[16] The ramjet was assigned to the Von Braun team of which less than 40 were employed in the V-2 launching program.[14] Design on the ramjet began on 10 December 1945. The Von Braun team dubbed the ramjet the "Comet."[24] Though the Peenemüunde engineers had no experience with ramjets, and some members were scattered across the country, work progressed. On 11 January 1946 Von Braun presented his cruise missile design to Major General Barnes and the program was underway.[25] Hermes II (aka RTV-G-3 & RV-A-3) was an attempt to produce a high-velocity ramjet-powered cruise missile. A V-2 would boost the cruise missile called the "Comet," or "Ram." to mach 3.3 at 66,000 feet where the ramjets would start.[26] The Hermes II was an unusual design. It had two rectangular "wings" which doubled as the ramjets. It was described as a "two-dimensional, split-wing ramjet.[26] The Hermes II, with its large rectangular wings, required enlarged tail fins. Still aerodynamic data was scant, and indicated that the Hermes II was unstable at most velocities which required more development of the guidance system.[27] Another concern was the fuel intended, carbon disulfide, which was easy to ignite, but had a low specific impulse.[26] At peak employment the Hermes II program employed 125 Germans, 30 Army officers, 400 enlisted personnel, 75–100 civil service personnel and 175 G.E. employees.[28]

A V-2 was modified to carry a test device called the "Organ," a series of test diffusers (ramjet air intakes) which was to make measurements of pressures. That first Hermes II test missile (missile 0) was launched on 29 May 1947 and landed in Mexico causing an international incident.[27] WSPG V-2 #44 carried a test ramjet diffuser. The successful flight returned data from Mach 3.6 and made GE confident it could proceed with a two-stage test.[29] Progress was slow which frustrated Von Braun.[30] The next Hermes II, (missile 1), the first to have the wings containing the ramjets, was launched by GE on 13 January 1949 and broke up shortly after liftoff due to unanticipated vibrations.[27] There were two further Hermes flights missile #2 on 6 October 1949, which suffered the fate of missile 1. Missile 2-A on November 9, 1950.[17] Missile 2-A did not break up, but the ramjet never started.[31] When the Von Braun team transferred to Redstone Arsenal in Huntsville, Alabama, their primary mission was still a Mach 3.3 ramjet cruise missile.[32] In May 1950 Hermes II was reduced to research only status. At that time Ordnance transferred the Mach 4 Hermes B from the General Electric grounds to Huntsville.[26][31] September 1950 saw General Electric's Hermes C-1 study transferred to Huntsville where it evolved into the very successful PGM-11 Redstone short-range ballistic missile.[32] The Hermes ramjet cruise missile faded into obscure history as it was terminated in 1953.[33]
Hermes B

Hermes B was a Mach 4 ramjet-powered cruise missile design study undertaken by General Electric.[34] It was later transferred to the Von Braun team at the Redstone Arsenal.[31] Hermes B was also designated SSM-G-9 and SSM-A-9.[23]
The Surface to Air and Surface to Surface Missiles

The development of the 25-foot (7.6 m) Hermes A-1 (CTV-G-5/RV-A-5) rocket was begun by General Electric in 1946. Constructed mostly of steel, it was an American version of the German Wasserfall anti-aircraft missile; the latter was about half the size of the German V-2 rocket.[23] The Wasserfall's aerodynamic shape was later adopted for the North American NATIV. Hermes A-1 had one major difference from the Wasserfall. The Peenemünde nitric acid/visol (vinyl isobutyl ether)-fueled P IX engine was replaced by a General Electric pressure fed 13,500 lb. thrust liquid oxygen/alcohol-fueled engine.[35][36] Beginning in 1947, the engine of the A-1 was tested at General Electric's Malta Test Station in New York.[37] The General Electric engine had a novel fuel injector which had great influence on future engine development in the United States. Combustion instability problems delayed engine development.[38]

Hermes A-1 components such as guidance and telemetry were tested on several V-2 flights at White Sands Proving Grounds in 1947 and 1948.[39] Plans to develop Hermes A-1 as an operational surface to air missile were dropped in favor of the more suitable Nike.[40] On 18 May 1950 the Army switched emphasis for Project Hermes to the surface to surface mission. The next day the Hermes A-1 first flew. The launch failed when thrust was lost shortly after lift-off.[39] The second flight failed after 41 seconds when the hydraulic servo covers were burned through by engine exhaust. None of the three subsequent Hermes A-1 flights were totally successful, though "they demonstrated the functional capability of the missile system."[39] Those last three launches achieved apogees of 14 miles.[41]

The demise of the Hermes A-1 did not end two other design studies. Work on the Hermes A-1E-1 and Hermes A-1E-2 continued. They were tactical missile designs 25 and 29 feet (7.6 and 8.8 m) long, respectively. Both were to have 1,450-pound (660 kg) warheads. The competing Corporal (XSSM—G-7/XSSN-A-7) showed better development and Hermes A-1E-2 was cancelled in April 1952 and was followed by the A-1E-1 in October of that year.[39]

The original Hermes A-2 was projected to be a wingless A-1, but that missile was abandoned to be followed by another rocket called A-2 (RV-A-10). The RV-A10 was a short range solid fuel test vehicle, with plans to develop a tactical missile (SSM-A-13), which were soon abandoned.[23]

The slightly larger Hermes A-3A (SSM-G-8, RV-A-8) followed.[23] Progress on the Hermes A-3 until it was divided into an A-3A (RV-A-8) test vehicle and the A-3B (SSM-A-16) which was intended to be an operational missile with a W-5 nuclear warhead.[42] A total of seven RV-A-8 were launches and five of them were either partial or total failures.[23]

The A-3B (SS-A-16) was slightly larger than the RV-A-8 and the last produced and tested vehicle of the Hermes missile program.[23][43] It was designed as a tactical surface-to-surface missile carrying a 1,000-pound (450 kg) warhead with a 150-mile (240 km) range but never achieved that range in practice. It had a thrust of 22,600 pounds-force (101,000 N). By 1954 six A-3Bs were test launched at White Sands, with five of the launches performed successfully. One of the developments of the Hermes A-3 program was the first inertial guidance system tested on a ballistic missile.[44][45] None of the Hermes missiles became operational, but did provide experience in the design, construction, and handling of large-scale missiles and rocket engines. The Hermes program was canceled in 1954.[23]

There were Hermes missiles which never flew. Work on a ramjet cruise missile continued after the end of the RTV-3 program. It was an ambitious program intended to produce a cruise missile, the Hermes II the RV-A-6 (Hermes B-1?), cable of flying mach 4.5 at 2,500 miles per hour (4,000 km/h) at 80,000 feet (24,000 m). There was a SS-G-9, Hermes B-2 which was never built.[23]

The Hermes C program was composed of a series of studies, one of which was the Hermes C-1, which led directly to the SM-A-14 (GM-11) Redstone.[46]
That is just a massive cut and paste, uncredited I might add, from Wikipedia.

The SAM part of project Hermes amounted to just the Hermes A-1, a Wasserfall clone. It ran from November 1944 to April 1951 when this portion of the program was cancelled entirely in favor of Nike that was more advanced and promising. GE fired a total of five Hermes A-1 missiles as part of the program. The first was on May 19th 1950. The missile failed on ignition. The second was in September 1950 and also failed to launch. Between February and April 1951 three more launches with variants, A-1, A-1E, and A-1E2 were fired. Of these, only one launch was considered completely successful. At that point the SAM part of the program was cancelled entirely.

The research portion on ballistic missiles continued, with the German Wasserfall design being discarded as unworkable. Hermes A-3 was a completely new design incorporating an airframe derived from MX 774 HIROC and used LOX / alcohol as fuel instead of furfural alcohol (Visol in German terms) a plasticized alcohol and RFNA that was hypergolic. The Hermes A-3 series eventually evolved into the Viking sounding rocket series. None of this relied on much of anything the Germans did in WW 2. As for Hermes using V-2's, that was just a shortcut on the cheap using available ex-German V-2's to do experimentation.

I will add that for a short period after the war, France tried to use the Messerschmitt Enzian SAM as a basis for development by Sud Est as the SE 4300 series. These resembled enlarged JB-3 Tiamat ground launched missiles were deemed failures with the program ending by 1950.

In the Soviet Union, as I mentioned, the R101 series was the primary Wasserfall continuation program but like everybody else, the Russians even with German engineering help couldn't get the missile to work as a SAM.

So, German wartime SAM development was NOT used as the basis for much of anything post WW 2, and in particular the Wasserfall. The first successful SAM to enter service, Nike, in particular owed NOTHING to German wartime research. NOTHING!

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