First atomic bomb was German !?!

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Tiger B
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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

#676

Post by Tiger B » 22 Mar 2015, 14:26

WP
I don't know anything specific regarding the U-534 and so I can't comment. U-864 is an interesting case, though. I agree that there is a real possibility that the mercury inside the wreck is, in fact, an amalgam, but I had never before considered the thought that the amalgamated substance might be either plutonium or Red Mercury. I have read, in Henry Stevens' useful book Hitler's Suppressed and Still Secret Weapons, Science, and Technology, about Red Mercury and how it can be used to detonate---wait for it---small fission and even some types of fusion devices (or perhaps neutron bombs; Stevens' writing, in Chapter 21, is a bit confusing on this point). I have also encountered claims that the term "red mercury" actually refers to lithium-6 deuteride, but this seems unlikely to me. I think these are two very different substances and are not insider-wonk synonyms for each other.
Uranium requires 20kilos of fuel per bomb, minimum. Plutonium requires perhaps 5. The test detonation which Hitler attended at Ohrdruf was supposedly highlighted by the fact that the amount of explosive, a reddish-purple liquid, used was on the order of a few ounces.

_In Theory_ this is indeed possible. If the material is plutonium.

You use irradiated beryllium as an injected radio source before a 'bazooka' (shaped charge) implosion of the plutonium contained in a dual-wall lead sphere is forced together with such force as to create a micro-criticality event. This then generates enough -thermal- (pressure) effect to fuse the lithium and deuterium of the booster surrounding the core to generate a much larger amount of neutrons. Down the tamper this flux goes to a secondary wad of U238 which _will fission_ if it's given a big enough flood of neutrons to jump start it into doing so. It's not pretty (huge gamma) but it works.

Castle Bravo went from 6-8MT planned to 15+ because nobody considered that little fact. But to the Germans who didn't have a lot of time and were trying to cut corners everywhere, I bet it did.

And now you have a functional, if low yield (sub kiloton trigger, 6-8KT full yield) weapon.

I personally believe it all comes down to the design of the pit volumes which must follow a very specific geometry of implosive collapse while remaining relative safe with the injection of a Pu-239 or Pu-240 isomer which is incredibly 'hot', even in it's metastable isomer state.

In one book I have read, perhaps this one-

_HITLER'S MIRACLE WEAPONS: Secret Nuclear Weapons of the Third Reich and their Carrier Systems volume 1 - Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine_

The German nukes were rumored to have very short shelf lives which would equate to their being powered by very high decay rate radio fuels (or those which went back to ground state).

From _Fifteen Minutes_ it is certain that ours did, with components having to be replaced on a tri-monthly basis as weapons rotated in and out of NAEC controlled stockpile.
In any case, yet again we run up against the possibility that the Germans were definitely pursuing atomic weapons or nuclear devices in some form, but that their weapons ran along technological and scientific lines that were significantly different from those pursued by the Allies. The reason for this is simple, though the implications are profound. German science had largely discarded Einsteinian, relativistic physics in favor of quantum mechanics. Quantum mechanics and relativity are, of course, related to one another, but (for lack of a better term) the "view" one has of the universe and all of its physical phenomena looks very different from one starting point as compared with the other. I would liken this to looking at the same object from opposite ends of a telescope. The object is still recognizable as itself either way, but the impression one gets of it is very different. This distinction caused German thought and science, at least when it came to their advanced weapons R&D and especially their work in nuclear weapons physics, to proceed very differently from what went on with their Allied counterparts.
Quantum mechanics defines potentialist energy states by charge geometries as electron orbit compression levels rather than absolute values of nucleus mass as Relativity defines them.

The simple fact is that we waste 2/3rds of an atomic weapon's fuel in fission of the core nuclei of a comparatively small percentage of pit fuel, even today.
Okay, but there is also another, less esoteric possibility, namely, that the amalgamate might have been uranium in some form. Not as sexy as Red Mercury or Plutonium, but still definitely useful to the Japanese if it got through to them. General Kawashima, chief logistics officer for Project Ni, stated in a 1982 Japanese TV documentary (sorry, don't have the name of it just now) that about 2,000 kg of "uranium"---uranium oxide?---had reached Japan via blockade running submarines during the War. He made no mention, as far as I know, of Red Mercury. But this does not write "finis" to this line of inquiry, not by any means. Just reporting what I can say I "know" with some degree of certainty, to this point in time.
If it was Uranium, it would have to be HEU and it would have to be in a form which would hold for the duration of a sea journey which rules out the use of a metastable isomer or isoton. For Japan to have received enough fuel for conventional (gun) weapons to build a useful stockpile of weapons -based on what Germany was transporting- (560 kilos in U-234), then Germany would have had to have had enough fuel for her own arsenal and I believe it was the shortage of such fuel which lead to a choice in the German high command to avoid the retaliatory consequences of a limited atomic release, on their own soil. It may well also have been that the OSS/SS (Dulles) connection or some other (Industrial/BIS) equivalent also gave them assurances that German culture was not on a one way trip to agrarianism or historical footnote.

The other problem with HEU is that it would not have remained so all these years and would have likely burned holes through even gold lined casks in it's decay, leading to a very ugly contamination problem indeed.

I believe that this is where what we are told of the Japanese efforts at Konan begin to take focus. For if the Uranium could be materially transformed or enriched through a high speed breeding process sufficient to create 10-20 weapons for use on Japanese soil, it might well have been sufficient overall for a much more limited transshipment of remaining Reich's stockpiles.

It would be a comparatively easy thing, all the way up through perhaps mid 1944, for the Germans to stage forward out of Norway or Lapland and using their weather stations above the arctic circle or perhaps U-Boats as far East as the Laptev, push a Bv-222 flight into Korea with the requisite PDC 'Bell' or perhaps a cascade of Type IIIB centrifuges to cause the final enrichment to happen in the Far East.

The problem is that this doesn't explain the gold shipping casks for what would essentially be pre-weaponized Uranium of no more than 40-50% concentration, nor does it make sense for the volumes stated to be on the U-234. Even as spike fuel to speed other conversions in a reactor, you cannot make sufficient weapons with 560 kilos of non enriched Uranium to be useful.
Hitler originally mandated that the Me-262 be produced as a bomber. At first glance this was madness. The payload of a bomber version of the Me-262 would have been miniscule and certainly less than comparably sized, propeller driven attack craft of that time. Unless...wait for it...we're talking about a jet-powered, high speed dash over a target on which a small, lightweight nuclear weapon of some kind was to be dropped. Of course it might be that Hitler was just plain nuts. But what if, at least in this instance, he wasn't?
The Me-262 in this case was supposedly (Farrell, _The Brotherhood Of The Bell_, I believe?) an instrumented airframe with a precision radar altimeter and linked bomb-trigger (radio?) mechanism designed specifically to ensure correct release of the weapon in company with a time fuse. Some of the German concept art weapons are slender enough for a 250-500kg ETC bomb rack to have usefully dropped one (assuming a heavy U234 core). The airframe was unique in being a two-seater which 'disappeared' from Rechlin towards the end of the war.

If you are dropping fairly primitive weapons in typical European weather, it stands to reason that something as fast as an Me-262 would need a specific safe:arm and precision trigger mechanism because it would not only be outrunning Allied fighters but it's own weapon blast effects.
I am guessing that the same would hold true for uranium? Just asking. Here is an article regarding the transport of uranium, in the form of uranium hydride, as an amalgam with mercury: https://books.google.com/books?id=0QcRA ... ry&f=false
See above. Plutonium proves the Germans were not just ahead in the race to produce a functional gun bomb which is kind've a cave man approach to atomic weapons -if- you get the separation efforts down early enough, but that they also had the understandings to make an implosion weapon (plutonium dissembles too quickly for anything else) and the industrial method to 'change the numbers' from 20-40kilos to perhaps 5-10 ('Pineapple'), per weapon.

This is very frightening because it essentially means that, by underestimating the ingenuity of the Germans in deriving an alternate means for producing the radio fuel, the Allies protracted the war (going for the 'Mediterranean Strategy' of do-nothingism to let the Russians bleed the Germans down for a year) by thinking the very thing we accuse the Germans of doing: "If we can't make it (this way) any faster, those morons certainly can't beat us."

And so long as they had Griffin and the Ultra/Fish efforts, the Allies dedicated atomic intelligence unit had every reason to believe that they were right on the money.

Until the SS stepped in and all reporting became one of compartmented, controlled signature. courier process.

The discovery of Uranium on the U-Boats could (and has) been laughed off as 'Uranium Oxide'. But Plutonium makes the whole lie crumble into cinders. Since, nominally, the only way to get sufficiently useful quantities of Plutonium is through a breeder reactor and 'We all know Haigerloch was a high school science project by comparison with Hanford...'.

Except that that isn't the only way to get Plutonium. It can be got, essentially, by running massive current loads around Thorium or Uranium until it changes state. This is what the Bell did. This is what Tokomaks do today.

And with Plutonium **and boosting**, which we knew nothing about, the Germans had a war winning capacity right up to the end. Not just as a nasty slap from the loser on the way down but the ability to flatten the capitals of Europe and put serious dents in the front lines with -numbered- strikes. Because it takes so much less radio material.
I was aware, from Heisenberg's experiments (which, BTW, also produced a nuclear accident), that the Germans used paraffin as a moderator in some of their "uranium machine" designs. I had never before heard of the Diebner group's reactor cook-off. Do you have a source for this incident? Many thanks.
From reading _The Virus House_, I have always wondered if Heisenberg tinkered with his device to cause the one at the KWI. It was massively irresponsible to be doing atomic work in the suburbs of Berlin to begin with but my recollection was that he 'inspected' the sphere which was to be the basis of the experiment several times and it after it began to blow like a tea kettle that he convinced all and sundry to get out.

The Diebner/Army incident is from an unnamed documentary in three parts, hosted on You Tube under the title: 'Hitler Atomic Bomb'.

I just checked and it is no longer listed.

Aside from the excess of menacing violin play, it is a very nice resource if you can come by it as it includes direct interviews with Von Weitzsacker, Claire Werner, Luigi Romersa and Rochus Misch, all highlighting various factors of the German Atomic development process which are not covered in the common histories. It also shows the Ruegen and Ohrdruf test sites and a Uranium Separation facility which was part of Ohnesorge's (Von Ardenne's) efforts.

After showing the site of the burned out lab building, it is stated that Kurt Diebner, who ran the experiment to super criticality and melt down is quoted by Von Weitzsacker as having said: "Well, at least we can now go to Hitler with proof that the bomb can be built." And according to Von Weitzsacker -everyone- in the Uranverein jumped down his throat with "Don't you dare!" threats and dire warnings.

Which, with the Gestapo and from them the SS, being privy to their very regular, ordered, monthly conferences as well as (I assume) all written exchanges, would have been the time to realize that these were all weak sauce moralists who were a step away from the noose in terms of defeatism.

Short of executing them all and advancing the ranks of their underlings as an example, the obvious thing to do was to split off the useful (Diebner, Harteck, Von Ardenne) element and let the rest 'do their experiments' in their little university fiefdoms, at least until war's end when their activities could be looked into without consequence.

Which I believe is exactly what happened. Paul Harteck stopped vying for dominance with Heisenberg to run real (low temp) cross section experiments because, after 1942, he had a new source of Uranium through the SS and Monawitz. Diebner was flatly told to make it work and the Plutonium production would be handled elsewhere. Which he did with the Schumann/Trinks design and IR photo initiators in a sealed pit.

Von Ardenne worked both the PDC and the Lithium separation experiments, Houtermanns (at Von Ardenne's extensive lab) 'did the math' on the fission-fusion-fission process which no less than Edward Teller would later admit was the root of all subsequent fusion research. And the mystery men in Austria (at least) ran the component level proofing experiments, sourcing systems and processes developed at Pilsen.

It is because the SS had their ears to every door and their fingers in darn near every pie that they were able to synthesize the best of the -multiple- bomb making processes together. And from that, get to a working bomb, quicker. Germany as the Greater Reich had the talent pool to work with and no where else within the Nazi system do you see single lines of technology base development. Let alone for something this potentially critical.

It is for this reason that the Allied Myth fails first.

I also think it is highly instructive that Heisenberg and Company specifically played games with the Allied eavesdroppers at Farm Hall. They had been stung, and badly, by prior experience with the masters of the surveillance art which led them to being split up and sent to their rooms as it were. But it did not lead to the end of German atomic research. For which their efforts remained as a cover.

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williamjpellas
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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

#677

Post by williamjpellas » 22 Mar 2015, 17:48

Your last post was a tour de force, tigerb. WELL said. Particularly this part:

That said, frankly, I am not surprised that little was found. The Germans at the end of the conflict were meticulous in cleaning up what they could so that the 'next war' could include technologies which where held in heads rather than doctored patents sure to be stolen by the conquering Allies. This soft capital, plus Bohrmann's genius was almost certainly what brought Germany back from the ashes in the 50s and 60s to it's present position of European Dominance today.

The Russians were in the region until the 50s and would have taken their share as well.

But as St. Georgen is Austrian there is a different flavor of totalitarian bureaucratic influence. And just as there is almost certainly a reason why the Austrian government spent millions filling adjacent underground factories up with concrete yet somehow 'missed this one', less than a mile away, so too is it impossible hide everything. Only to so contaminate it as to render true archaeology unlikely to yield anything but mixed results.

One of the many reasons why I hope the Russians well and truly hand the EU Force it's head even NATO cracks when the U.S. plummets into nation wide depression based on dollar crash, is that I believe -they know- what was going on in Germany at the end of the war, far better than anyone else.

They captured the real facilities in the Czech Republic and Poland. They got Von Ardenne and Hertz and Ohnesorge. And their work, along with TONS of radio material that the Germans couldn't possibly have had but did, brought the Russians to nuclear power status in less than 4 years instead of the minimum 10 which the Russians themselves estimated.


I have been highly suspicious about von Ardenne for quite some time. I can't comment very much at this point because some of the information I have read is part of a paper that I will be offering for publication. What I can say in this forum at this time is that I definitely DO NOT believe the fiction that is currently posted---right now, today---on the "von Ardenne Company" website about why the Russians spared von Ardenne's life and, indeed, eventually awarded him the Stalin Prize for his work on the Russian atomic bomb program. Right after that, these doctrinaire Stalinist Communists proceeded to fork over hundreds of thousands of rubles to him and sent him back to East Germany to run the next iteration of his super-laboratory as, for all intents and purposes, a free market entrepreneur. And yet, the Company's present day website says, Ach! Nein! It vass NOT Herr von Ardenne who built ze breakthrough equipment fur das Russians. Nein, it was Max Steenbeck, and all he did vass re-do some U-235 machinery (probably similar to what the Manhattan Project had built years before). I think this is complete baloney. So, the Russians gave the Stalin Prize and, incredibly, sent von Ardenne back to East Germany as a private businessman---how unequal! How bourgeois-capitalist! Heresy!!!---because his lieutenant, Steenbeck, basically reverse engineered Manhattan Project U-235 machinery that the Russians already knew all about because of the espionage of Klaus Fuchs? No way.

Agreed entirely, also, that most of the "real facilities"---the underground SS factories---were in the Czech Republic and Poland. The Czech Republic, because of the nearby uranium. Poland, because of the ahem, "buna plant" that never produced any rubber. And I absolutely agree with your belief than Kammler got a get out of jail free card in exchange for advanced tech from the SS black projects empire.

Your hypothesis re: Bormann is reasonable and, I suspect, probably correct, though his reputed "escape" at the end of the war is not, to my mind, as probable as that of Kammler. At least, I haven't seen sufficient documentation at this point to buy into that end of the spectrum. But it wouldn't surprise me, either.

And yes, the historic American position in terms of foreign policy relative to Europe was, Stay away from them and let the Old World blow itself to pieces with all of its petty murderous rivalries. That was true from the time of George Washington until the World Wars, and it really wasn't until the second World War and the rise of NATO and the UN that the US became thoroughly entangled with Europe. I suppose the argument would be that the US "had to" take the lead in Europe because of the decline of the most friendly European power---Great Britain---and because if we didn't keep a tight lid on things over there, it was only a matter of time before the powder keg exploded again. But even if that is true (and that is at least arguable), America is a diminished nation, and one that has drifted far from its founding principles, as a result.


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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

#678

Post by ChristopherPerrien » 22 Mar 2015, 18:44

Bormann was dead in 1945.

German had "human capital" that is why they recovered from the war. The German's stored nothing at the end of the war and had nothing.

That, and the rest of the world , had to have Europe restored as an economic block. To have a "strong" Europe there has to be a strong Germany. So the Allies had to stop their Genocide through starvation in Germany, the mass raping in the East, and the Pastorization of West Germany ,in 1945 to later 40's as advocated by influential factions in the West . These same factions saw the "profit" and reparations to be made off of Germany and Euroope RESTORED, far outweighed murdering all Germans and making the place a wasteland.

As to the the Commies getting the A-bomb from German science, surely some of them helped and the basic research to make a bomb was fairly understood by many scientists everywhere by 1945. The Commies got alot from stealing a-bomb secrets from the USA, but I think it just enabled short cuts that the German did not understand. Besides it would not surprise me if Oppenheimer himself didn't send info to the Commies.

Also the USA got the best of the scientists and science of Germany, which is why the USA is the only country to put a man on the moon.

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

#679

Post by wm » 22 Mar 2015, 19:29

williamjpellas wrote:So, the Russians gave the Stalin Prize and, incredibly, sent von Ardenne back to East Germany as a private businessman---how unequal! How bourgeois-capitalist! Heresy!!!
Incredibly, there were private, bourgeois-capitalist enterprises in East Germany and there were in Stalinist Russia.
williamjpellas wrote:Agreed entirely, also, that most of the "real facilities"---the underground SS factories---were in the Czech Republic and Poland. The Czech Republic, because of the nearby uranium.
Too bad nobody can find them.
williamjpellas wrote:because of the ahem, "buna plant" that never produced any rubber.
Not true, today the buna plant is the third largest producer of synthetic rubber in Europe. The Poles (and the Soviets) were the sole beneficiaries of that enormous project. Those installations were put to good use shortly after the war, they produced synthetic fuel, rubber, anything coal based - exactly as the Germans intended.

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

#680

Post by Tiger B » 22 Mar 2015, 21:08

WM,
Not true, today the buna plant is the third largest producer of synthetic rubber in Europe. The Poles (and the Soviets) were the sole beneficiaries of that enormous project. Those installations were put to good use shortly after the war, they produced synthetic fuel, rubber, anything coal based - exactly as the Germans intended.
>
Nothing remained of the Buna Werke industrial complex after the Soviet takeover.[20] Beginning mid-February 1945 the Red Army shipped all equipment and machinery to western Siberia using captured German specialists who helped dismantle it bit by bit.[20] At the grounds of the former factory are the two Polish companies: Chemoservis-Dwory S.A., which produces metal structures, parts, metal building elements, tanks and reservoirs etc., and Synthos Dwory Sp. a subsidiary of the Synthos S.A. Group which manufactures synthetic rubbers, latex and polystyrene among other chemical products. Both are based in Oświęcim. Extant structures and visible remains of the Monowitz camp itself include ruined prisoner barracks buildings, a ruined building of the SS Barracks, a large concrete air raid shelter for the SS guard force, and small one-man SS air raid shelters (these can also be found on the grounds of the Buna Werke factory, along with larger concrete air raid shelters for the factory workers).
>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monowitz_c ... Buna_Werke

My information regarding Buna 102 is also different from yours. Namely that, when the Allies took Italy and the prospect of bombardment missions using longrange Liberators from Foggia arose, the Germans took down the plant -to the last brick-.

And left, by sometime in early 1944, long before the site was threatened by the Russians. Which makes no sense for a factory which was supplying critical rubber and oil to the embattled Reich but a lot of sense for a factory which was filled with explosive, radioactive and highly toxic Uranium Hexafluoride gas plumbing which would not react at all well with Allied aerial delivered high explosive. And also fits with a Uranium project that had successfully exploited the existing stockpile, turning it into reactor/PDC suitable metal or HEX gas.

This doesn't mean that the site wasn't also a synthetic rubber facility but as one, it served no purpose during the war, as the IG Farben trials showed, and given the degree of work which the Germans got out of slave labor throughout the Reich's work camps and indeed other parts of the Monowitz complex itself, I frankly don't believe that the cover story excuse given of 'endless technical problems' covering for sabotage or go-slow was a factor.

Not when this was a casual occurrence on-site-

>
Fritz Löhner-Beda (prisoner number 68561) was a popular song lyricist who was murdered in Monowitz-Buna at the behest of an IG Farben executive, as his friend Raymond van den Straaten testified at the Nuremberg trial of 24 IG Farben executives:


One day, two Buna inmates, Dr. Raymond van den Straaten and Dr. Fritz Löhner-Beda, were going about their work when a party of visiting IG Farben dignitaries passed by. One of the directors pointed to Dr. Löhner-Beda and said to his SS companion, ‘This Jewish swine could work a little faster.’ Another director then chanced the remark, ‘If they can’t work, let them perish in the gas chamber.’ After the inspection was over, Dr. Löhner-Beda was pulled out of the work party and was beaten and kicked until, a dying man, he was left in the arms of his inmate friend, to end his life in IG Auschwitz.”[13]
>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monowitz_c ... Buna_Werke
williamjpellas wrote:Agreed entirely, also, that most of the "real facilities"---the underground SS factories---were in the Czech Republic and Poland. The Czech Republic, because of the nearby uranium.
Too bad nobody can find them.
It is very strange that the Pilsen facilities were left untouched for most of the war and yet we seemed to know /exactly/ what was there which was worth violating the demarcation of forces line (by 100nm) to risk taking, at the very end.

It is not strange that the sites associated with the Southern Reiss complex were destroyed, because that is where the high radiation test phase work with the Die Glocke took place, allowing Germany to steal a march on the Allies with the switch to PDC from reactor based transmutation of metals.

We were also in a rush to take charge of the Ohrdruf 'Reich's Redoubt' areas which the resident SS units fought tooth and nail to hold onto and all of the Jonastahl and associated SI/II/III bunker complexes of Thuringia were blown and sealed. Fine, safety reasons, whatever. But the combat diaries and intelligence files of Patton's elite armored task force which found them, in-situ, were also rendered off limits, for 100 years.

Not fine. Because nothing that was found in Thuringia, technically, is beyond today's state of the art for virtually any country.

Or the social understanding that sometimes evil is very, very, good at what it does.

What is unforgiveable is the notion that what was done to the world in the 1940s occurred as part of a larger globalist agenda with linkages to today's policies. And that is what a lot of us fear will actually be discovered. That razing Europe to the ground to replace it's capabilities with U.S. dominated market sources while turning Colonialism on it's head was the 'goal' of WWII's overzealous slaughter all along.

From the German side, if you can source one Deutsche Physik bomb worth of plutonium trigger material from each working of the Tokomak and it takes a month to remanufacture it for another run, you simply build a dozen such devices and build twelve bombs for a month, followed by a bomb per month thereafter, rotating the devices through depot.

If that truth leads to questions about why Germany didn't in fact have/use/lost a standing stockpile, then we have potentially globe changing conditions in place. Because the only people in the region, thanks to the efforts of yet more SS prolonged bloodshed around Prague, delaying the Soviets for days, were the Americans. And the Americans in their hubris filled wisdom, thought it appropriate to butcher 100,000 Japanese civilians whose deaths _could not change the course of the war one bit_.

Which means 'Nazi Morality', if it ever was exclusively a Nazi Germany problem, has now transferred, one might say /infected/ itself to The West.

That's a big problem in a nation built on trust through Freedom of ideas and information.

And it's a problem underlined by the way the Nazis were in bed with U.S. bankers, before, during and after that conflict. _Trading With The Enemy_ is just one small part of this.

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

#681

Post by Tiger B » 22 Mar 2015, 22:00

ChristopherPerrien wrote:Bormann was dead in 1945.
Bormann certainly cut it close if he wasn't killed on the Wiedendammer.

Anyone with sense would have been outside the Reich via Austria, Switzerland and Spain by December 1944, at the latest. However; Hitler's fading health and the desperation of the German generals to end the war with /something/ left to rebuild likely made it necessary for The Brown Emminence to stay in place because whatever was being worked on in Germany was still in-process (said by no less than Goebbels at a meeting of the Reich's remaining functionaries where he briefed them on something coming soon if Germany could hold out for just six more months. They in fact held for five.)
German had "human capital" that is why they recovered from the war. The German's stored nothing at the end of the war and had nothing.
No. Germany's in-country science could not be counted on to remain unshot, undeported or unconverted through denazification as their own attempts to hide from the world. Everything had to be taken outside the country. Which is why the Strasbourg Conference -did- happen and the Flight Capital program extended from the Operation Feurland to a more general evacuation of German industry.
That, and the rest of the world , had to have Europe restored as an economic block. To have a "strong" Europe there has to be a strong Germany. So the Allies had to stop their Genocide through starvation in Germany, the mass raping in the East, and the Pastorization of West Germany ,in 1945 to later 40's as advocated by influential factions in the West . These same factions saw the "profit" and reparations to be made off of Germany and Euroope RESTORED, far outweighed murdering all Germans and making the place a wasteland.
A fiction. Germany spent decades regaining her industrial capital through the EC program. Europe was razed to the ground to /remove/ it's industrial capital and thus it's ability to defend it's own interests with Colonial resources and internal manufacture. The march to globalism is one of removing the internal, cellular, independence as immune response to externalist forces.

There was never any fear of the Soviets so long as the atom bomb existed along with a means to project it deep enough into the interior to kill all Soviet political ambitions.

Just as there was no cause at all to fight a prolonged attrition war when Germany could be brough to her knees in weeks with strikes on her electrical grid alone.
As to the the Commies getting the A-bomb from German science, surely some of them helped and the basic research to make a bomb was fairly understood by many scientists everywhere by 1945. The Commies got alot from stealing a-bomb secrets from the USA, but I think it just enabled short cuts that the German did not understand. Besides it would not surprise me if Oppenheimer himself didn't send info to the Commies.
Which is why it took until the arrival of U-234 for the U.S. to figure out how to engineer a fuse system for an implosion weapon and why we never did have boosted weapons during the war. Why we expended enormous intelligence capital both practice-strike attacking a combat sub so we could capture a real cargo boat to figure out what was on it (U-505 essentially told the Germans we had Enigma and caused them to shift to a dual cypher system for the rest of the war on critical cargo subs using diplomatic codes which supposedly remained unbroken, destroying Ultra).

And why the Germans in fact transferred so much technology to the Japanese when Nishina and Arakatsu were smart men who had also studied at the feet of Neils Bohr and were-

>
On 15 October 1946 for example the New York Times published an interview by an ABC reporter who interviewed Prof Arakatsu Bunsuku. At page 4 of the article it was reported that Arakatsu claimed he was making "tremendous strides" towards making an atomic bomb and that Russia probably already had one.
>

https://sites.google.com/site/naziabomb ... mb-project

Edward Teller himself has stated that much of the work behind Teller-Ulam derived from German source material which, during the war, could only have been sourced from Houtermanns (Von Ardenne lab) and perhaps the Austrians.

Sorry, this doesn't pass the smell test. At all.
Also the USA got the best of the scientists and science of Germany, which is why the USA is the only country to put a man on the moon.
Rubbish. First, getting to the moon in a flimsy lander with less mass than a Model T and skins made from aluminum foil you could poke a finger through is no major accomplishment because it essentially means you are in the experimental stick-and-canvas stage of space flight. That we remain stuck with liquid rocket technology today, 70 years after the experiment in turboplumbing that was the V-2, shows that we are NOT the beneficiaries of ground breaking technology because it has no future.

Second, the system which -would- have worked as a general transport in getting sufficient, constant, loads of material to orbit to make orbital construction of true spacecraft as the Silver Bird/Sanger TSTO was never funded to success and the interplanetary option with Project Orion was shut down.

Sanger was German, Atomic Propulsion (which would still be the best payload:mass ratio express method of getting people to and from gravity wells where their biology isn't at risk, today) was purely American.

Third, look what has become of NASA and the ESA as indeed ISS. Back to divided funding with more 'experimental' work efforts which make space exploration a trillions-for-tuppence Jock Strap effort by heroes rather than an effort to let us expand as a population into a wider galaxy.

We are not doing serious agrav mechanics studies. We are not doing serious FTL studies. We are not SEEING THE BENEFITS of an asteroid belt where tons of materials are scattered like islands amongst a sea of dust making easy robotic construction of space craft outside of gravity wells a real possibility.

We are not even /considering/ the structural qualities of asteroids themselves. Or how they might be sculpted and compressed to form starship hulls in their own right.

If we could only reach them.

No. The space program as envisioned by NASA was nothing but an Icarusian attempt to see how high we could fly before the funding wax melted and the followon 'commercialization' of space is turning into cheap satellite launchers and pricey tourism for the spoiled rich, like everything else, undertaken with capitalist motive: a purely profit oriented enterprise with no more vision than ever.

The V-2 program was and remains an albatross of dead end technology draped around our necks. Ironically, the potential of quantum mechanics to reinvent how gravity works and even the ability of micro-nukes to help push us quickly across the voids between worlds remains the real gift of that time.

And we do nothing but cover up the realities of how it worked to give the Germans weapons that we couldn't build alone.

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

#682

Post by LWD » 23 Mar 2015, 01:22

Tiger B wrote:...
Quantum mechanics defines potentialist energy states by charge geometries as electron orbit compression levels rather than absolute values of nucleus mass as Relativity defines them.
...
A master piece of technobable. I'll have to remember that one.

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

#683

Post by ChristopherPerrien » 23 Mar 2015, 01:48

Tiger B wrote:
Which is why it took until the arrival of U-234 for the U.S. to figure out how to engineer a fuse system for an implosion weapon and why we never did have boosted weapons during the war.
Are you kidding? As to the U-234(weird number coincidence I must say), it was captured on May 14.

The first SUCCESSFUL test of the fuze system for an "implosion" type weapon was done on May 7. Trinity done on July 16, was an implosion "plutonium" weapon. And "The Gadget" and the "Fat-man" were basically the same minus the addition of an outer casing with fins. . The USA learned nothing from whatever was on the U-234 about building an implosion bomb, the US was building them already.

And if you want to "go there" ,As to Uranium oxide being use to make the Little Boy, I call "Hokum". It took 1-2 weeks just to Just get the U-234 to the USA , that makes June. And, inventorying the sub and recognizing the UrO2 as such, shipping it to Hanford , testing , grading, and then enriching it , surely DID NOT HAPPEN it a space of 4-5 weeks , MInd you the USS Indianapolis left San Fran with the Uranium bomb on July 16. Coincidentally the same day as the Trinity test. During this shipping phase and into August, perhaps the Uo2 did get processed and may well have been 1/4 of the U-235 in the 3rd or 4th Little Boy Type Bomb, but we have already gone past the war end by then. And this German UO2 or U-234 certainly had nothing to do with the first test Trinity or The Fat Man or the Little Boy..

You need to look at these dates and realize your concocted revisionist theories on this subjectt simply will not fit in the historic time-frame. A U-Boat captured on May 14,1945, had nothing to do with the US atomic weapons used during WWII or their development.

As to "Boosted Weapons" I.E. Thermonuclear/Hydrogen bombs, If actual functional "plans" for such a device were on the U-234, it would not have taken the USA another 7 Years -1952(Ivy Mike), to build a boosted device and fire one off, or 9 years 1954(Castle Bravo) to have an actual H-Bomb. They would have been tested in 45 or 46, if such design plans had existed.

Excuse me, but I am now wondering if you have spent too much time over on those GreyFalcon sites.

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

#684

Post by williamjpellas » 23 Mar 2015, 03:06

Christopher Perrien, you are reporting the standard Manhattan Project timeline as it appears in most standard histories. While I agree that extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, it cannot be said that persistent rumors and, if you like, "conspiracy theories" about U-234 and its cargo have not been around almost from the day it appeared in a US port. The chief spook of the entire Manhattan Project, Col. John Lansdale, stated unequivocally before he died that the uranium from U-234 WAS used in the Manhattan Project and WAS incorporated into at least one of the bombs that fell on Japan (more likely the first one in my view, but I don't know this for sure). While I don't personally go quite as far as tigerb and Simon Gunson and Carter Hydrick go with all of this---yet---I have certainly seen more than enough perfectly legitimate (read: attested by primary source, period-original documentation) information that definitely runs counter to the "established history" to cause me to re-examine that history in as much depth as possible to see if there IS a smoking gun. Or two. Or three.


What is that information? For starters, Rainer Karlsch got most of his most explosive finds from Soviet archives. The Russian histories of the War are not well known in the West, even today, and of course the onset of the Cold War meant that very few Western scholars have ever had a detailed look at Russian archives. David Glantz was one of the first US writers to put together a major history that made significant use of Russian documents. This was his excellent book, When Titans Clashed, How the Red Army Stopped Hitler. Karlsch of course also pulled from some German sources---notably documents from the estate of Dr. Erich Schumann of the Schumann-Trinks device---and while some German sources obviously found their way into Western histories, much of what we are discussing today, in 2015, has to do with highly sensitive information that was highly classified for 50 years. Thus, to my mind, it does not good when we are re-examining these particular issues (read: Axis atomic weapon R&D) to point to established histories and claim, "case closed", for what ought to be a painfully obvious reason: namely, the established histories simply did not have access to the classified information. How could they write about it in any definitive way when they literally couldn't see where they were going, other than a few leaks and personal interviews? (Here David Irving, vilified though he may be in the eyes of some, did a great service with his book, The Virus House, since as far as I know he interviewed more of the WWII German nuclear scientists for that work than any other Western historian. Irving of course doesn't hold much with Karlsch, but Irving is wrong on this point as far as I am concerned.) This is leaving aside the fact, as mentioned by tigerb, that all of the US documents having to do with Ohrdurf are still classified top secret to this day. Why? I thought Ohrdurf was nothing but yet another Nazi death camp, part of the Buechenwald complex. I don't recall many documents from, say, Auschwitz or Bergen Belsen being so sensitive that they were immediately squirreled away, not to be opened for 100 years. If even then. Same with Professor Walther Gerlach's diary. Why? What is so secret about that?


Regarding the mostly underground German nuclear weapons facilities in what is today central and eastern Europe, obviously---once again---most of the information about them fell into Soviet hands, where it was swiftly hidden from Western eyes for the next half century or longer. After the fall of the USSR, Russian archives became available, and there was a brief period of time when researchers like Karlsch could get a glimpse into most of the areas in which they wanted to look. Now that Ivan is on the march again, I would imagine---though I don't know this for a fact---that Russian archives might be once again harder to get into, if perhaps still not as closed off as they were during the Cold War. Of course the Eastern Bloc was more than Russia alone. This is where people like Igor Witkowski, the Polish writer-researcher, come in, Witkowski being arguably the world's foremost authority on the Nazi Bell. The Bell, as described above by tigerb, was probably a form of fissile material breeder, but one that apparently utilized Tesla physics in the form of massive electromagnetic force to transmute elements by first converting them to plasma. There are a number of advantages to that sort of approach, assuming for the moment that the Germans really did perfect it to a suitable degree (I am pretty sure that they did but have not completed my research). There are also disadvantages, but for reasons which I will discuss another time, in my view the advantages outweighed the negatives, particularly given the strategic situation facing Germany in the latter half of the War, and given where the Germans were in terms of their nuclear weapons theory (still the world leaders)---meaning, they were pursuing weapons that required, or would have required, less fissile material than what the Allies were doing in the Manhattan Project---and given the economic resources then available to them.


I know for a fact that Simon Gunson, who has appeared on these forums a number of times in the past and who is to my mind one of the most well-informed writers in the world when it comes to the WWII Axis nuclear weapons projects, has been approached to write a book about the Nazi Bell. He claims to be gleaning much of his information about that device from German and Eastern Bloc wartime archives and Cold War-era documents; while this in and of itself does not "prove" that his somewhat avant-garde conclusions are objectively real and correct, the fact that he is digging where he is certainly says to my mind that he is looking in the right places and that he ought to be taken seriously. I know for a fact, also, that he regularly corresponds (presumably with the help of Google's translation program) with a number of researchers in the former Eastern Bloc countries and in Germany. If Karlsch found a number of surprises in the Russian archives, why couldn't there be similar information in, say, Poland and the Czech Republic that might not be readily available in the West, or that has been overlooked by US and Western writers? This seems eminently reasonable to me. Now, again: maybe the Russian and Eastern Bloc and German sources tell us something that runs significantly counter to the established history, and maybe they don't. I suspect, strongly, that they DO, though I have to keep as open a mind as possible if I'm going to do the work of a legitimate historian here. But taking all this into consideration, why WOULDN'T we look more deeply into all of this, particularly as more information becomes available in countries that for a half century or longer were more or less cut off from the West, or at least, from its institutes of formal scholarship? Keep in mind, too, that even today when you are doing research at NARA (the US National Archives and Records Administration) or other repositories of supposedly-declassified information, the archivists will rarely tell you where to look and what to look for. First, this is because there is so much information that the archivists themselves, even the best of them and on their best day, know but a fraction of what there is to find. Second, there is still institutional, bureaucratic resistance to disclosure. In other words, you have to know what you are talking about and know what to ask for and why. Otherwise you might get lucky and stumble upon a nugget or two, but you are not likely to turn up anything truly significant. Again, the Eastern Bloc and German documents can be of great help here, simply by telling US and Western researchers what to ask for in their own archives in seeking to find any corroborating documents that might tell a similar story.
Last edited by williamjpellas on 23 Mar 2015, 04:50, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

#685

Post by williamjpellas » 23 Mar 2015, 03:27

Also, you are playing fast and loose with the term "boosted weapons". There is a hard distinction between "boosted fission" and true thermonuclear - hydrogen bombs. While boosted fission, conceptually, can probably be said to be closer in theory and in function to how an H-bomb works, it is still a significantly different method of detonation. A small amount of fusion does, in fact, occur in a boosted fission bomb, but it only amounts to about 1 or 2 percent of the total yield of the bomb, per Carey Sublette's Introduction to Nuclear Weapons Physics on the Federation of American Scientists website. If I'm not mistaken, the US, in the form of the "exploding meat packing plant" Ivy Mike test, actually tried to build an H-bomb before it tried to build a boosted fission bomb. The engineering for boosted fission, in other words, might in some ways be more difficult than that for a H-bomb, at least if we are talking about the earliest devices. I'm not entirely sure on this last point, so by all means please correct me if I'm mistaken. It is a fact, as tigerb mentioned, that Edward Teller, father of the US hydrogen bomb, gave considerable credit to German work in theoretical physics that had been done some years before, probably in the late 1930s. Boosted fission is of a somewhat different methodology, but again the Germans, at least in theory and at least on chalkboard, got there first. Enrico Fermi apparently proposed a form of boosted fission detonation in the early discussions of the top Manhattan Project scientists, but the idea was discarded because the engineering would have been too complex; Oppenheimer and Groves were, quite correctly, thinking in terms of the type of weapon that could most readily and quickly be completed by the US given the state of its engineering and manufacturing art in the early 1940s. Fermi was educated in German universities, at least in part.

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

#686

Post by ChristopherPerrien » 23 Mar 2015, 04:15

. A small amount of fusion does, in fact, occur in a boosted fission bomb, but it only amounts to about 1 or 2 percent of the total yield of the bomb,
Yes , but that 1% fusion is what sets off the "boosted fission" . I.E. you need an H-Bomb first to make one.
Unless you're an "under-pants" gnome. :wink:

Break
===============
A little piece from FASB by Hans Bethe* on this subject, perhaps it has been noted before, but it is relevant to convo at hand. *Nobel Prize/worked on all this stuff/etc.

MEMORANDUM ON THE HISTORY OF THERMONUCLEAR PROGRAM=May 28, 1952

http://fas.org/nuke/guide/usa/nuclear/bethe-52.htm
I believe it is obvious from this outline that the theoretical program on [deleted] has proceeded at maximum speed from the moment this device was conceived. This rate of progress was only possible by the extensive use of high-speed computing machines which did not exist a year earlier.
This right here says it was a matter of sheer "math" to get this done. So now that presents the case that the Nazi's must have developed "super-computers" :oops: also, to have made these designs in the first place. Somebody find me a " U-NAZI-VAC" 12K 8O , 2.5mHz 8O computer" 8-) , buried in the 3rd Reich Ruins or something.

Also, there is the issue that whatever info/intel/design/rubber plant/ anti-grav bell/stuff the Russians got in 1944-45, they still didn't detonate an H-Bomb till 1955.

The odds of the biggest opposing powers of the Cold-war, were somehow 7-10 years behind German Atomic War research,even though they acquired all of it in 1945,just doesn't make sense. Are you telling me either side intentionally "stalled" for years during the beginning of the Nuclear arms race? Just so they could keep it secret that they may used Nazi "secrets" when it was blatantly apparent both sides had 100's of these same Nazi scientists working for them after 1945. :?

Anyway , I am out of my league debating with you guys. I'll wait for the 100 year secret clearance to lift. I might live that long, However, I ain't too sure that I want to though.

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

#687

Post by Tiger B » 23 Mar 2015, 05:21

CP,
Are you kidding? As to the U-234(weird number coincidence I must say), it was captured on May 14.

The first SUCCESSFUL test of the fuze system for an "implosion" type weapon was done on May 7. Trinity done on July 16, was an implosion "plutonium" weapon. And "The Gadget" and the "Fat-man" were basically the same minus the addition of an outer casing with fins. . The USA learned nothing from whatever was on the U-234 about building an implosion bomb, the US was building them already.
>
In support of this historical reconstruction, there is a
communication from May 25, 1945 from the chief of Naval
Operations, to Portsmouth where the U-234 was brought after its
surrender, indicating that Dr. Schlicke, now a prisoner of war,
would be accompanied by three naval officers, to secure the fuses
and bring them to Washington.14 There Dr. Schlicke was
apparently to give a lecture on the fuses under the auspices of a
"Mr. Alvarez,"15 who would appear to be none other than wellknown
Manhattan Project scientist Dr. Luis Alvarez, the very man
who, according to the Allied Legend, "solved" the fusing problem
for the plutonium bomb!
>

https://wikispooks.com/w/images/4/44/Re ... ck_Sun.pdf

In Carter Hydrick's Book-

>
"Lt. (JG) H E Morgan, Lt. (JG) F M Abbott, Ens F L Granger with Dr. Schlicke POW in custody leaving
Anacostia noon Friday via plane. This party expert in bomb disposal and proximity fuses and being sent to
assist in securing certain infra red proximity fuses important BUORD [Navy Bureau of Ordnance - author's
note] and in cargo U-234. Fuses when secured to be returned Washington custody above party."ccxxx
Dispatch from Chief of Naval
Operations to Portsmouth Naval Yard, 25 May, 1945

...

On 19 July 1945, Dr. Schlicke presented a lecture to members of the Navy Department. A
portion of the transcribed introduction of Dr. Schlicke bears an innocuous clue to the possible purpose of the
infra-red fuses. "After Dr. Schlicke completes his lecture he will be available for questions that people ask.
But we will kindly ask you not to ask any questions during the lecture and after the lecture Mr. Alvarez
[italics added] will sit at the table and the person who wishes to ask a question is asked to come forward so
that we can get in the microphone and keep a record of all the questions and answers."ccxl
>

http://xlivescom.synthasite.com/resourc ... 20Bomb.pdf


The question then becomes: If Luis Alvarez is either:

A. Just having finished the accomplishment of a lifetime in getting the electromechanical fusing to reliably work.

B. In a race against time to do so.

Why is he playing Heinz Schlicke's best friend at a Navy Yard on the East Coast and a Washington briefing to the Navy Board?

What /possible/ application to a German Engineer could Luis Alvarez, a civilian radiation physicist and bomb fusing expert have as a military advisor NOT related to his own work on the bomb, which was, at that point at a very critical juncture?
And if you want to "go there", as to Uranium oxide being use to make the Little Boy, I call "Hokum".
Sir, the whole point is that the Americans knew what was coming, U-234 did multiple 'U-Turns' to defeat threat radio surveillance and perhaps make an unscheduled stop in Spain. And what was taken off the sub was of such volatility that it was stored in gold lined casks, the opening of which was important enough for Robert Oppenheimer, _also a very busy man_ to attend, behind a lead shield.

>
The men of U-234 joined the officers and crews of the three subs that preceded them, as prisoners in the custody of the U.S. Navy. While at the Charles Street Jail in Boston, where they were being held while in transit to more permanent quarters, the commander of the U-boat U-873 slashed his wrists and was taken to a hospital where he died.

U-234 officers were taken to Washington, D.C. for interrogation. Second Officer Pfaff -- he who would rather have been on a South Sea island -- was taken to what he believed to be a topsecret Navy installation in Virginia and into a room in which the cargo unloaded from U-234 was being stored.

Pfaff was ordered to oversee the opening of a metal container. The reluctant welder with the cutting torch pleaded with Pfaff not to let him die because he had a family. The military watchdogs stood back, out of harm\'s way.

\"He begged me not to let both of us get blown up,\" Pfaff said, I\'and I assured him that I too did not want to die young. Why would these boxes be booby trapped? They were on their way to our ally (Japan). Why would we want to blow them up?\"

When they saw that it was safe, the military came out of hiding. Pfaff said he was then asked to open the boxes -- little cigar-box shaped boxes, he recalled -- that contained the uranium oxide.

A \"tall, skinny fellow\" wearing an \"Eillot Ness\" hat -- that is, a hat fashionable in the 1930s and 40s -- appeared. The only civilian in the room, he went about supervising the opening of the boxes. Who is that? Pfaff asked. Oppenheimer, somebody said.

\"I had no earthly idea who Oppenheimer was,\" Pfaff said. But later, when the war finally ended, Pfaff, in a detention center in Louisiana, read news reports about atomic physicist J. Robert\' Oppenheimer, director of the Los Alamos laboratory where the design and building of the first atomic bomb took place.

\"I didn\'t know for sure that it was Oppenheimer in there,\" Pfaff said. \"I had to take this man\'s word.\"
>

http://uboat.net/forums/read.php?3,1787,1787>

Please understand that, even for a military man with priority papers, a trip from Los Alamos to the East Coast was a 12-15hr experience @ 250 knots and if you were on a train, it was closer to 2-3 days.
It took 1-2 weeks just to Just get the U-234 to the USA , that makes June. And, inventorying the sub and recognizing the UrO2 as such, shipping it to Hanford , testing , grading, and then enriching it , surely DID NOT HAPPEN it a space of 4-5 weeks , MInd you the USS Indianapolis left San Fran with the Uranium bomb on July 16. Coincidentally the same day as the Trinity test. During this shipping phase and into August, perhaps the Uo2 did get processed and may well have been 1/4 of the U-235 in the 3rd or 4th Little Boy Type Bomb, but we have already gone past the war end by then. And this German UO2 or U-234 certainly had nothing to do with the first test Trinity or The Fat Man or the Little Boy..
It wasn't Uranium Oxide. It was HEU (Clap Hands to Cheeks Everyone and REPEAT AFTER ME: "Germany didn't have any isotope separation program!") and it was sent direct to Hanford to spike the feedstock and make Plutonium faster.

>
Chapter One - U-234/U235
"The most important and secret item of cargo, the uranium oxide, which I believe was radioactive, was loaded into one of the vertical steel tubes [of German U-boat U-234].... Two Japanese officers... [were]... painting a description in black characters on the brown paper wrapping.... Once the inscription U235 (the scientific designation for enriched uranium, the type required to make a bomb - author's note) had been painted on the wrapping of a package, it would then be carried over...and stowed in one of the six vertical mine shafts."
Wolfgang Hirschfeld
Chief Radio Operator of U-234
"Lieut Comdr Karl B Reese USNR, Lieut (JG) Edward P McDermott USNR and Major John E Vance CE USA
will report to commandant May 30th Wednesday in connection with cargo U-234." [ii]
US Navy secret transmission
#292045 from Commander
Naval Operations to Portsmouth Naval Yard, 30 May 1945
"I just got a shipment in of captured material.... I have just talked to Vance and they are taking it off the ship.... I have about 80 cases of U powder in cases. He (Vance) is handling all of that now."iii
Telephone transcript between Manhattan Project security officers
Major Smith and Major Traynor, 14 June,1945.
The traditional history of the atomic bomb accepts as an unimportant footnote the arrival of U-234 on United States shores, and admits the U-boat carried uranium oxide along with its load of powerful passengers and war-making materials. The accepted history also acknowledges these passengers were whisked away to Washington for interrogation and the cargo was quickly commandeered for use elsewhere. The traditional history even concedes that two Japanese officers were onboard U-234 and that they committed a form of unconventional Samurai suicide rather than be captured by their enemies.
The traditional history denies, however, that the uranium on board U-234 was enriched and therefore easily usable in an atomic bomb. The accepted history asserts there is no evidence that the uranium stocks of U-234 were transferred into the Manhattan Project, although recent suggestions have hinted that this may have occurred. And the traditional history asserts that the bomb components on board U-234 arrived too late to be included in the atomic bombs that were dropped on Japan. The documentation indicates quite differently on all accounts.
Before U-234 had landed at Portsmouth - before it even left Europe - United States and British intelligence knew U-234 was on a mission to Japan and that it carried important passengers and cargo.iv A portion of the cargo, especially, was of a singular nature. According to U-234's chief radio operator, Wolfgang Hirschfeld, who witnessed the loading of the U-boat:
The most important and secret item of cargo, the uranium oxide, which I believe was highly radioactive, was loaded into one of the vertical steel tubes one morning in February, 1945. Two Japanese officers were to travel aboard U-234 on the voyage to Tokyo: Air Force Colonel Genzo Shosi, an aeronautical engineer, and Navy Captain Hideo Tomonaga, a submarine architect who, it will be recalled, had arrived in France aboard U-180 about eighteen months previously with a fortune in gold for the Japanese Embassy in Berlin.
I saw these two officers seated on a crate on the forecasting engaged in painting a description in black characters on the brown paper wrapping gummed around each of a number of containers of uniform size. At the time I didn't see how many containers there were, but the Loading Manifest showed ten. Each case was a cube, possibly steel and lead, nine inches along each side and enormously heavy. Once the inscription U235 had been painted on the wrapping of a package, it would then be carried over to the knot of crewmen under the supervision of Sub-Lt Pfaff and the boatswain, Peter Scholch, and stowed in one of the six vertical mineshafts.v
Hirschfeld's straightforward account of the uranium being "highly radioactive" - he later witnessed the storage tubes being tested with Geiger counters,vi - and labeled "U235" provides profoundly important information about this cargo. U235 is the scientific designation of enriched uranium - the type of uranium required to fuel an atomic bomb. While the uranium remained a secret from all but the highest levels within the United States until after the surrender of U-234, a captured German ULTRA encoder/decoder had allowed the Western Allies to intercept and decode German and Japanese radio transmissions. Some of these captured signals had already identified the U-boat as being on a special mission to Japan and even identified General Kessler and much of his cortege as likely to be onboard, but the curious uranium was never mentioned. The strictest secrecy was maintained, nonetheless, around the U-boat.
As early as 13 May, the day before U-234 was actually boarded by the Sutton's prize crew, orders had already been dispatched that commanded special handling of the passengers and crew of U-234 when it was surrendered:
Press representatives may be permitted to interview officers and men of German submarines that surrender. This message applies only to submarines that surrender. It does not apply to other prisoners of war. It does not apply to prisoners of the U-234. Prisoners of the U-234 must not be interviewed by press representatives.vii
Two days later, while the Sutton was slowly steaming toward Portsmouth with U-234 at her side, more orders were received. "Documents and personnel of U-234 are most important and any and all doubtful personnel should be sent here,"viii the commander of naval operations in Washington, D.C. ordered. The same day, the commander in chief of the Navy instructed, "Maintain prisoners U-234 incommunicado and send them under Navy department representative to Washington for interrogation."ix
The effort to keep U-234 under wraps was only partially successful. Reporters had been allowed to interview prisoners from previous U-boats, and, in fact, were allowed to interview captured crews from succeeding U-boats, as well. When the press discovered U-234 was going to be off limits, a cry and hue went up that took two days to settle. Following extended negotiations, a compromise was struck between the Navy brass and the press core.x
The reporters were allowed to take photographs of the people disembarking the boat when it landed, but no talking to the prisoners was permitted.xi When they landed at the pier, the prisoners walked silently through the gawking crowd and climbed into buses, to be driven out of the spotlight and far from the glaring eyes of history. On 23 May, the cargo manifest of U-234 was translatedxii by the office of Naval Intelligence, quickly triggering a series of events. On the second page of the manifest, halfway down the page, was the entry "10 cases, 560 kilograms, uranium oxide."
Whoever first read the entry and understood the frightening capabilities and potential purpose of uranium must have been stunned by the entry. Certainly questions were asked. Was this the first shipment of uranium to Japan or had others already slipped by? Did the Japanese have the capacity to use it? Could they build a bomb?
Whatever the answers, within four days personnel from the Office of Naval Intelligence had brought U-234's second watch officer, Karl Pfaff - who had not been brought to Washington with the original batch of high-level prisoners, but who had overseen loading of the U-boat in Germany - to Washington and interrogated him. They quickly radioed Portsmouth:
Pfaff prepared manifest list and knows kind documents and
cargo in each tube. Pfaff states...uranium oxide loaded in
gold cylinders and as long as cylinders not opened can be
handled like crude TNT. These containers should not be
opened as substance will become sensitive and dangerous.xiii
The identification that the uranium was stowed in gold-lined cylinders and that it would become "sensitive and dangerous" when unpacked provides clear substantiation of radio officer Hirschfeld's assertion that the uranium was labeled with the title U235. Uranium that has had its proportion of the isotope U235 increased compared to the more common isotope of uranium, U238, is known as enriched uranium. When that enrichment becomes 70 percent or above, it is bomb-grade uranium. The process of enriching uranium during the war was highly technical and very expensive - it still is.
Upon first reading that the uranium on board U-234 was stored in gold-lined cylinders, this author tracked down Clarence Larsen, former director of the leading uranium enrichment process at Oak Ridge, Tennessee, where the Manhattan Project's uranium enrichment facilities were housed. In a telephone conversation, I asked Mr. Larsen what, if anything, would be the purpose of shipping uranium in gold-lined containers.xiv
Mr. Larsen remembered that the Oak Ridge program used gold trays when working with enriched uranium. He explained that, because uranium enrichment was a very costly process, enriched uranium needed to be protected jealously, but because it is very corrosive, it is easily invaded by any but the most stable materials, and would then become contaminated. To prevent the loss to contamination of the invaluable enriched uranium, gold was used. Gold is one of the most stable substances on earth. While expensive, Mr. Larsen explained, the cost of gold was a drop in the bucket compared to the value of enriched uranium. Would raw uranium, rather than enriched uranium, be stored in gold containers, I asked? Not likely, Mr. Larsen responded. The value of raw uranium is, and was at the time, inconsequential compared to the cost of gold.
Assuming the Germans invested roughly the same amount of money as the Manhattan Project to enrich their uranium, which it appears they did,xv the cost of the U235 on board the submarine was somewhere in the neighborhood of $100,000 an ounce; by far the most expensive substance on earth. The fact that the enriched uranium had the capacity to deliver world dominance to the first country that processed and used it made it priceless. A long voyage with the U235 stowed in anything but gold could have cost the German/Japanese atomic bomb program dearly.
In addition to the gold-lined shipping containers corroborating Hirschfeld's identification of the uranium as U235, the description of the uranium's characteristics when its container was opened also tends to support the conclusion the uranium was enriched. Uranium of all kinds is not only corrosive, but it is toxic if swallowed. In its raw state, however, which is 99.3 percent U238, the substance poses little threat to man as long as he does not eat it. The stock of raw uranium that eventually was processed by the Manhattan Project originally had been stored in steel drums and was sitting in the open at a Staten Island storage facility.xvi Much of the German raw uranium discovered in salt mines at the end of the war also was stored in steel drums, many of them broken open.
>
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/cienc ... chap01.htm


[quote[
You need to look at these dates and realize your concocted revisionist theories on this subjectt simply will not fit in the historic time-frame. A U-Boat captured on May 14,1945, had nothing to do with the US atomic weapons used during WWII or their development.
[/quote]

No. You need to realize that everything about the atomic weapons was planned out weeks to months in advance-

Why Hiroshima/Nagasaki was and remains a Crime Against Humanity.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=of0m7yNYs80

There were multiple bombs in play in the PTO and not all of them were delivered on the Indianapolis. The capsule which weaponized the basic weapon was inserted late, post launch, because the B-29s had an astonishingly bad habit of blowing an engine at the power levels and overload takeoff weights they used and they didn't want to play dice with the devil on their own airbase.

With this in mind, the period between May 14 and July 16 is more than sufficient for the material, whose grade was well known, because -it had been promised to be so beforehand- to be added and for the fuse modifications to be made.

As to "Boosted Weapons" I.E. Thermonuclear/Hydrogen bombs, If actual functional "plans" for such a device were on the U-234, it would not have taken the USA another 7 Years -1952(Ivy Mike), to build a boosted device and fire one off, or 9 years 1954(Castle Bravo) to have an actual H-Bomb. They would have been tested in 45 or 46, if such design plans had existed.


Read the book _Nuclear Axis_ by Henshall. The Allies had been running down cargo boats with extreme prejudice from the middle of 1944 onwards. IMO, it is likely that this is a direct relation to the events which followed the July 20th assassination attempt and the arrival off the U.S. Coast of the Der Schwarz Ritter (Type XIb) supply sub, another 'wondder waffen that didn't exist but does'.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1k1MFyaRjY

IMO, the likeliest outcome is that the Industrialists onboard wanted to trade their wealth as their lives for some degree of technology exchange or warning. They may have brought samples.

When the Valkyrie attackes faltered, we sank the boat and all onboard to avoid a major embarrassment. At that point, I believe we knew, in detail, what was going on because that trip was arranged based on 'prior negotiations' which had been ongoing in Spain.

>
Numerous U-boats and large former Italian transport submarines voyaged to Asia with a variety of cargos including radar sets, optical glass, plans for aircraft and submarines, jet and rocket engines etc. During an interview with General Kawashima in 1983 for a Japanese television channel, he confessed that Germany successfully shipped 2 tons of Uranium oxide to Japan during the War. Given the small number of U-boats which succeeded in their passage it may also be assumed that many cargoes of Uranium were lost with their U-boats. U-219 and U-195 were the final transport U-boats to reach Djakarta in November 1944. [7] These submarines also carried between them components for twelve V-2 rockets. [8]

There is also evidence of an 800 kilogram Uranium oxide shipment intended for the return voyage of Japanese submarine I-52 waiting for collection at Lorient in July 1944 and 560kg of Uranium oxide captured in the cargo of U-234 upon this U-boat's surrender when War in Europe ended.
>

https://sites.google.com/site/naziabomb ... mb-project

If we knew to chase them and the Germans were serious about a Phantom Menace that was burning cities to the ground to remove the Nazi atomic options (Hamburg was leveled because of Harteck's high speed motor spools and 'bondur' tubing was made there) and the Far East was the only place completely beyond Baseball/Frantic/Titanic missions, then clearly the Japanese 'had the plans' by some method, long before U-234 ever sailed.

Excuse me, but I am now wondering if you have spent too much time over on those GreyFalcon sites.


Doubt in the face of any held view is a privilege of freedom inherent to living in an open society. It is when that stream of ideans and information begins to narrow that you must begin to tread carefully in dismissing the outre` and unconventional as 'not worthy of your time' because belief and the desire for what is to be true to that belief is not the characteristic of freedom but dependency.

When cops break a crook's alibi it is typically by showing that elaboration of a story doesn't fit the known details. When states destroy history it is typically by simplification of details so that the story fits what's left.

The problem for a state comes when that information flow that defines the limits of that story is reopened, in this case, ironically, by sources from the very threat nation which we are supposed to villify, suggesting that the nature of the atomic 'race' was less sprint from common blocks than a baton relay.

And the ultimate answer may be, as I believe, that WWII was a fraud from the beginning, induced with deliberate intent to escalate and raze half the civilized world, with endgames whose outcomes for the remainder of that civilized Western Culture have now run completely off the rails and are set to destroy us as a society.

We _need_ to know how much our governments have lied so that we can reset the dial and evaluate what is being set up as an NWO before it's all fait d'accompli too late.

A significant part of that comes from untangling the capabilities and motives of the atomic weapons which were used to arbitrarily end the campaign in an act of grotesque indecency to humanity by it's nominal white knight heroes.

ChristopherPerrien
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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

#688

Post by ChristopherPerrien » 23 Mar 2015, 06:30

10 cases, 560 kilograms, uranium oxide."
OK, so now you say, the UO2 was not UO2, it was pure weapons grade U-235.

Which at 21 lbs(?IIRC) a weapon, is about 50 A-bombs. But wait , the Nazis and Japanese were able( until they lost the war) to make a bomb with 14lbs(iirc) , something it took the East and West till the 60's to figure out. So that is like 75 bombs, but the German just "tested " one , and sent the other 74 bombs to Japan, God knows they weren't gonna use them on the Red Hordes raping and murdering Germans or the Western hordes just murdering cities with bombing.

But wait , not only did they ( the Germans ) have 75 bombs worth of U-235, they could also fission boost them , so these 75 20KT bombs become , I don't know, 75 2MG bombs. Yet they only tested 1 , did not make any others(since they were doing so good in 1945) and sent all those easily makeable bombs(all you need is HEU-235, TNT, Batteries, etc.) on a high risk voyage to nowhere

So I guess Hitler was working for the Jews and the New World Order to destroy Germany by not using any of these super fusion boosted fission bombs, and sending them on a doomed mission to a friendly country that by that time was doing so well as they also had a bunch of this U-235 as one U-boat did make the trip. But them peaceful Japanese never built a bomb or use these plans for a "super" fission bomb, because they were enjoying those 1000 plane fire raids, and still had part of China.


:roll: I am leaving it at that and leaving.

Watch out for Foo-Fighters from Antarctica flown by some very old Nazis fighting for Israel, one day.

BTW=We do partially agree, the world needs to change.

You say before the NWO takes over(I think they already did).

A real big war will fix everything. You say for the better. I think it will just end.

Tiger B
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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

#689

Post by Tiger B » 23 Mar 2015, 14:13

CP,

That is one of the problems that I face. One of the reasons why I believe the German method was one of exploiting isomer cascade technologies which could, in the end, -only- produce small weapons because the material they worked with remained metastable only in small quantities.

Five hundred sixty kilos of Uranium Oxide is not enough to serve as feed stock for a plutonium weapon or to refine to useful amounts of HEU for a gun device.

Uranium 235 is not, to my knowledge, 'treated as TNT' but plutonium is that volatile. A variant of Plutonium (Pu240) that was too hot to bring together for a conventional criticality might thus also be a possibility if it's implied energy state could be compressed through charge variance to something that, in micro-quantities was that capable.

The problem here is the Pfaff and the Navy man would have likely still been killed if that was indeed the case as both a scintillance and Geiger counter would have made abundantly clear.

The discovery of isomer and isoton variants of Uranium goes back to 1921 or so and is also attributed to Otto Hahn and Lisa Meitner. I believe that from their work progressions to atomic shell variants would lead direct to the notion of changed energy states which would bely the notion of atomic cross sections as stable energy conditions and thus the inviolability of the nucleus as well.

>
After the war, Hahn concentrated on the chemistry of radioactive elements. In 1921, with Lise Meitner, they made a very important discovery of Uranium Z – the first example of nuclear isomers. Although few paid much attention, this would prove very important in later nuclear physics. In 1936, he produced a book “Applied Radiochemistry” which became a very significant milestone in radiochemistry.

Glenn Seaborg said: “I believe that it is fair to refer to Otto Hahn as the father of radiochemistry and of its more recent offspring nuclear chemistry.”

In the late 1930s, the Hahn group made more progress on the study of Uranium, and were the first scientists to measure the half-life of Uranium. By 1939, the Hahn group had discovered the basic mathematics of nuclear fission, and the fact that the uranium nuclei split when bombarded with atoms. However, they didn’t continue their work to its conclusion of producing the atomic bomb.

During the Second World war, Hahn and Fritz Strassmann continued to work on nuclear physics. At the end of World War II, he was interned in England on suspicion of working on the Germany nuclear programme. He was released in 1946.
>

http://www.biographyonline.net/scientis ... -hahn.html

Isomers have chemical applications as well as nuclear ones in that their mutability of energy states translates to changes in bond adoption susceptibility. Hahn may well have discovered or wanted such a catalyst in his work with long chain molecule chemicals in the poison gas effort of WWI.

In this it may well be that Isomers also have an ability to be used in speeding the transmutation of U238 to U235 in a non-nuclear sense and thus the recovery of sufficient HEU was made, just on the eve of collapse and would indeed have given Japan 18 such weapons. That would still have been insufficient (range of delivery platforms) to defeat the U.S. in a direct exchange but it might very well have rendered defense of the home islands viable in the short term, both on a beach head by beach head basis of direct attack on landing forces and amphibious anchorages. And on the principle of deep attack with Kaiten or similar, into the logistics staging areas like Ulithi and Truk.

Removing the active Carrier presence would have essentially made Okinawa uninhabitable and allowed one-way trips by Betty's and Emily's to take the fight out to the second island chains of Guam, Tinian, Midway and Wake. Rendering all further attempts at landbased Power Projection into the Home Island chain as very dicey repeats of the Doolittle Raid. Certainly it would have terrified the U.S. to discover that the Germans -had- sent that much HEU and 'who knows how much had already gotten thru'. Such -might- have reversed my judgment on the need to drop the weapons, preemptively.

We _don't know_. We **Do Know**, now, that the entire Alsos effort was a COINTELPRO disinformation campaign whose continued prosecution can only be aimed at the PEOPLE of The West. As it most assuredly failed to contain the atomic secrets within our sphere and the Russian boosted weapons may well have been, for awhile, in fact superior.

We deserve answers and the answers on something this big do exist.

I am an American. Unlike you I reject absolutism as the need for total war as an arbitrary reset on all the evil which is being done here, now, in our name to our reputation and future.

The alternative to tyranny is not always conflict but must always be truth. Truth is trust. And Americans, watching their country be destroyed by outside interests, have no reason to trust our leadership. Starting with the oldest of layered scars of lies may thus be the easiest way to work forwards.

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williamjpellas
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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

#690

Post by williamjpellas » 23 Mar 2015, 17:39

We _don't know_. We **Do Know**, now, that the entire Alsos effort was a COINTELPRO disinformation campaign whose continued prosecution can only be aimed at the PEOPLE of The West. As it most assuredly failed to contain the atomic secrets within our sphere and the Russian boosted weapons may well have been, for awhile, in fact superior.

We deserve answers and the answers on something this big do exist.

I am an American. Unlike you I reject absolutism as the need for total war as an arbitrary reset on all the evil which is being done here, now, in our name to our reputation and future.

The alternative to tyranny is not always conflict but must always be truth. Truth is trust. And Americans, watching their country be destroyed by outside interests, have no reason to trust our leadership. Starting with the oldest of layered scars of lies may thus be the easiest way to work forwards.



Tigerb, you present a compelling alternate history scenario. I don't know enough about the kinds of governmental and political inner workings that you are discussing to offer any kind of informed opinion one way or the other, but I will say that the fact that there are---to my mind---so many unresolved questions and so much conflicting information and documentation regarding the ultimate weapon of the 20th century, certainly points in the direction of healthy skepticism about the established histories. I can go that far without reservation. Again, without doing A LOT more reading and research, I must refrain from coming down definitively on one side or the other. What I am prepared to say at this time is that I see more than enough to warrant a thorough re-examination of the established history of the end of the war, particularly as it regards Axis atomic weapons.


Agreed entirely that the Germans probably "outsourced" at least a significant portion of their nuclear R&D to Japan in order to avoid determined and effective Allied counter-nuclear attacks. As Robert Wilcox has extensively documented, the end of the war Japanese crash program was based primarily in Korea, NOT on the Japanese mainland (not any longer, that is). The Japanese had far more electrical power in Korea than the United States had at Oak Ridge, something on the order of two and a half times as much. Beyond this there was an enormous industrial complex in Korea that as far as I know was never attacked by the US. Not once. Why? Surely this was every inch the strategic bombing target that mainland Japan was. What was going on here? I can offer a theory: given that Roosevelt was sympatico with Stalin, and beyond this the fact that the US and Britain wanted Russian manpower for use against Japan, I suspect that the Japanese industry in Korea was offered as a carrot to Stalin to get the Soviets to break their nonaggression pact with Japan---something that was of no small value to the USSR and which probably enabled them to hold out in the winter of 1941, if not kept them in the war altogether---and turn on the Japanese in the Fall of 1945. No, I can't prove that. But I suspect this is what happened.


There is of course a lot more to study in this topic. I hope to be able to do sufficient research in the time I have left in this world to arrive at some of the answers. If not, I hope that others will be willing and able to take the ball and run with it to a satisfactory conclusion to the matter.

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