First atomic bomb was German !?!

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by OpanaPointer » 28 Sep 2017 16:14

Gen. Marshall was told he'd have four bombs by the time the Allies invaded Kyushu. That's one bomb per month. He was told he'd have six more ready for Kanto Plain. That's one bomb per month.
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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by williamjpellas » 28 Sep 2017 17:07

A photo of the Little Boy pumpkin bomb is included in my post on Quora dot com, and is linked above. Apparently none of the Little Boy pumpkins were loaded with explosives. Rather, they were filled with concrete in order to simulate the weight of the bomb during an actual atomic mission.

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by T. A. Gardner » 28 Sep 2017 17:28

For the Germans to have a working nuclear bomb, they needed one of two things: U235 enriched to about 98% + or Pu 239. That's undeniable as the science doesn't change for the Germans. This means they:

1. Had to have a very large and obvious uranium enrichment program going to get U235. There is ZERO evidence of such a program in Germany.

or

2. They had to have working graphite moderated fast fission reactors and a means to cull plutonium from those reactors. There is ZERO evidence of such a program in Germany. This is aside from Plutonium only being discovered right before Pearl Harbor in the US and being made a top secret the US didn't even share right away with the British. Since Germany doesn't know about plutonium, nor how to fashion a bomb with it, this route is out.

That leaves a uranium bomb. Where's the evidence Germany was enriching uranium on a scale sufficient to produce such a bomb?

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by williamjpellas » 28 Sep 2017 18:19

They could also have used U-233 produced from thorium, and there is some evidence that U-233 was their fissile material of choice.

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by T. A. Gardner » 28 Sep 2017 18:35

williamjpellas wrote:They could also have used U-233 produced from thorium, and there is some evidence that U-233 was their fissile material of choice.
That requires a working breeder reactor. Where's the evidence they had a working reactor of any sort?

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by williamjpellas » 28 Sep 2017 19:01

It does not necessarily require a working reactor. Fissile material can be produced electromagnetically, for example by a cyclotron or similar machine. While it is true that the basic cyclotron's output is very low---if also exceptionally pure---it is known that Manfred von Ardenne's institute was working on machinery that was more efficient than that Calutrons used in the Manhattan Project. Postwar Soviet devices similarly utilized what were, for all intents and purposes, modified Calutrons. I conclude that they likely got these directly from von Ardenne himself after von Ardenne and several of his close friends decided they would all go over to the Russians together.

In addition to this there is some evidence that Kurt Diebner, by then in the employ of the heereswaffenamt nuclear weapons project, built his own reactor somewhere in the vicinity of Gottow. At that time, 70-plus years ago, Gottow was a relatively remote and forested area south of Berlin that was used by the German Army as a weapons proving ground. Diebner's reactor, if it existed, was not the same thing as the well-known Hagerloch device that nearly-sort-of-worked-but-not-quite. There are admittedly few specifics, but here is some more reading. No time at the moment to sort through all of this and find which articles or pages are the best.

https://www.ask.com/web?q=diebner+react ... hBox&adt=0

Just took a fast look at the Kurt Diebner piece from Wikipedia, and although there is not much detail, note the following passage:

On 22 April 1939, after hearing a paper by Wilhelm Hanle on the use of uranium fission in a Uranmaschine (uranium machine, i.e., nuclear reactor), Georg Joos, along with Hanle, notified Wilhelm Dames, at the Reichserziehungsministerium (REM, Reich Ministry of Education), of potential military applications of nuclear energy. Just seven days later, a group, organized by Dames, met at the REM to discuss the potential of a sustained nuclear chain reaction. The group included the physicists Walther Bothe, Robert Döpel, Hans Geiger, Wolfgang Gentner, Wilhelm Hanle, Gerhard Hoffmann, and Joos. After this, informal work began at the Georg-August University of Göttingen, and the group of physicists was known informally as the first Uranverein (Uranium Club) and formally as Arbeitsgemeinschaft für Kernphysik. The second Uranverein began after the Heereswaffenamt (HWA, Army Ordnance Office) squeezed out the Reichsforschungsrat (RFR, Reich Research Council) of the REM and started the formal German nuclear energy project. The second Uranverein had its first meeting on 16 September 1939, which was organized by Kurt Diebner; formally, Diebner was director of the Kernforschungsrat (Nuclear Research Council), under General Carl Heinrich Becker of the HWA. It was then that Kaiser-Wilhelm Institut für Physik (KWIP, after World War II reorganized and renamed the Max Planck Institute for Physics), in Berlin-Dahlem, was placed under HWA authority, with Diebner as the administrative director, and the military control of the nuclear research commenced. Some of the research was carried out at the Versuchsstelle (testing station) of the HWA in Gottow; Diebner, was director of this facility as well as the experimental station of the RFR in Stadtilm. When it was apparent that the nuclear energy project would not make a decisive contribution to ending the war effort in the near term, control of the KWIP was returned to the its umbrella organization, the Kaiser-Wilhelm Gesellschaft (KWG, after World War II renamed the Max-Planck Gesellschaft) in January 1942 and control of the project was relinquished to the RFR that year. However, the HWA did maintain its testing station in Gottow and continue research there under Diebner’s direction until the end of the war. During Diebner’s directorship at the KWIP, considerable personal animosity had developed between Diebner and Werner Heisenberg and his scientific circle, which included Carl Friedrich von Weizsäcker and Karl Wirtz; when Diebner left the KWIP, Heisenberg became the acting director.[2][3][4][5]

It was at the Gottow facility that nuclear fission experiments designated G-I[6] and G-III[7] were conducted. The G-1 experiment had lattices of 6,800 uranium oxide cubes (about 25 tons) in the nuclear moderator paraffin. The work verified Karl Heinz Höcker’s calculations that cubes were better than rods, and rods were better than plates. The G-III experiment was a small-scale design, but it generated an exceptionally high rate of neutron production. The G-III model was superior to nuclear fission chain reaction experiments that had been conducted at the KWIP in Berlin-Dahem, the University of Heidelberg, or the University of Leipzig.[5] Work was also done to explore the initiation of a nuclear reaction through the detonation of explosives.[8]

In the latter part of World War II, in addition to his other responsibilities, Diebner was a Reich Planning Officer.[9]


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Diebner

There is a series of original German documents about the Diebner experiments and other advanced wartime work known as the "G Papers". As far as I know, the term is taken from the German code letter for this work, "G", which is alluded to in the Wikipedia passage immediately above. These are among the best, and also the most underutilized, primary source documents about the WWII German work.

In addition to the possibility of some kind of electromagnetic fissile material manufacture, and also that Diebner's reactor design was actually built and thus became the source for bomb fuel used in the March 1945 Ohrdurf test detonations, there is a mysterious passage in Jeremy Bernstein's book Hitler's Uranium Club. Bernstein was writing about the transcripts of the conversations of the captured German scientists interred at the Farm Hall estate in England. At one point, Diebner and his HWA boss, Walter Gerlach, briefly discuss what they called "photo fission". Bernstein clearly has no idea what they meant. This may or may not have been another method of fissile material production; whatever secrets Diebner and Gerlach had about this went with them to their graves. Another highly curious aspect of Operation Epsilon is that Erich Schumann, who as the lead scientist in the entire HWA was both Diebner and Gerlach's boss, was NOT taken with the others to Farm Hall. This is a very strange exclusion when one considers that Werner von Braun and several more of the greatest of all German scientists were Schumann's PhD students.

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by T. A. Gardner » 28 Sep 2017 21:18

The US tried all three known (at the time) methods to enrich uranium: Gaseous diffusion, electromagnetic separation, and centrifuge. They got a total amount of material to make 2 or 3 bombs at most from it. If plutonium hadn't been discovered and a method devised to make it work as a weapon, atomic bomb programs would have likely ended with a handful of low yield weapons produced worldwide.

That Germany might have tried electromagnetic separation on some laboratory scale is meaningless. They weren't producing anything close to what would have been necessary to build a working bomb. As the US program showed, they would have had to establish an enrichment program on a vast scale that wouldn't have gone unnoticed when the war ended.

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by witcher » 29 Sep 2017 01:36

Oh suprise my response has disappeared, workin on it all day. Well there is tomorrow.

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by witcher » 29 Sep 2017 05:34

So what I've implied by saying we should move on is:
As with many new technologies , a yet far more valuable discovery is made along the way.

While working at Texas Instruments in Stafford,Tx 1978 , I met a small group down the hall called Doodlebuggers (Oil gas exploration) who were actually the ground zero for TI, the Integrated circuit was developed to improve existing electronic devices.
The Doodlebuggers were an important part of TI history but really had then become a nuisance.

So in the same light ,yes the bomb, fission fusion etc is now really only a nuisance..

Other discoveries for example, non-local macroscopic quantum entanglement and the widely known imbalance in F=ma have far more importance.

I do no not wish to re-hash little boy all over again. Clearly the physical record indicates it was injected late into the Pacific war from Europe as part of a negoated 'agreement'.

-

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by Tiger B » 29 Sep 2017 09:30

OpanaPointer wrote:Gen. Marshall was told he'd have four bombs by the time the Allies invaded Kyushu. That's one bomb per month. He was told he'd have six more ready for Kanto Plain. That's one bomb per month.
Which is entirely workable, if you are thinking November 1945-January 1946 from the perspective of May 1945 as U-234 pulls into the docks with a cargo of U235.

It's the MANDATORY cooldown and chemical separation lag that makes plutonium from a hot load of weapons grade Uranium in a pile take 6-8 months.

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by T. A. Gardner » 29 Sep 2017 17:51

Tiger B wrote:Which is entirely workable, if you are thinking November 1945-January 1946 from the perspective of May 1945 as U-234 pulls into the docks with a cargo of U235.

It's the MANDATORY cooldown and chemical separation lag that makes plutonium from a hot load of weapons grade Uranium in a pile take 6-8 months.
This is completely wrong. U234 represents .005% and U235 .702% of unenriched uranium. There is no evidence to support that Germany was able on a mass scale to enrich uranium of any sort to any level above what was found naturally. So, what the US got from captured German uranium stocks was unenriched. It would take months, if not years to process it.

The cool down period is weeks, not months as most of the radiation given off is from short-lived fission fragments. The long-lived ones decay at a very slow rate meaning their radioactivity given off is low. The process to collect the plutonium, likewise, takes days, not months. See for example the PUREX process.

The Hanford site in Washington eventually had 4 working plutonium production reactors with at least two more planned, and potentially another 4 on top of that had the war continued. Plutonium production in the US was ramping up when the war ended.

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by Tiger B » 29 Sep 2017 23:30

T. A. Gardner wrote:For the Germans to have a working nuclear bomb, they needed one of two things: U235 enriched to about 98% + or Pu 239. That's undeniable as the science doesn't change for the Germans. This means they:

1. Had to have a very large and obvious uranium enrichment program going to get U235. There is ZERO evidence of such a program in Germany.

or

2. They had to have working graphite moderated fast fission reactors and a means to cull plutonium from those reactors. There is ZERO evidence of such a program in Germany. This is aside from Plutonium only being discovered right before Pearl Harbor in the US and being made a top secret the US didn't even share right away with the British. Since Germany doesn't know about plutonium, nor how to fashion a bomb with it, this route is out.

That leaves a uranium bomb. Where's the evidence Germany was enriching uranium on a scale sufficient to produce such a bomb?

Which is why I argue that the use of the term 'in Germany' is deceptive because the large scale bomb efforts seemed to have happened in Czechoslovakia, Poland and Austria, beyond most bomber ranges or under mountains. The Reich is not The Greater Reich but it is still a German project. Unless it isn't, in which case, you have to look at the enormous problems Austria had with their conservative catholic leadership which nearly led to an insurrection until the prime minister was assassinated and then to a war between Italy and Germany when El Duce` decided the best way to stabilize the problem was through invasion...

There is VAST evidence of conspiracy to sabotage by a very large segment of the German military and intelligentsia, the overall War Effort. Which is why it is enormously important to figure out who was the managerial partner in the Austrian effort especially as the SS were rabidly antichristian on their face (smashing crucifixes throughout Catholic France during Fall Gelbe) but if they were running a secret, compartmentalized, SAR/Unacknowledged program yet managed to let some idiot scientist decide to sabotage nuclear weapons testing as more than one source strongly implies, then it can only be because they were in on it.

See: What happened to any Jew who sabotaged the Mittelwerke or Object Zement in roughly the same area. There would have been multiple oversight elements (as with Paul Harteck) and guards against sabotage because it was so very clear that nobody liked the German occupation by 1943-44 when authority was transfered and the programs went black, likely, after the Peenemunde Raids.

>
"Assertions made by General Groves after the war... were probably designed
to divert attention from the German isotope separation program. The idea
being that if the existence of the German uranium enrichment program could
be hidden, then the cover story could be established that Germany's atomic
bomb effort consisted only of failed attempts to create a reactor pile to bread
plutonium "
Carter P. Hydrick: Critical Mass: the Real Story of the Birth of the Atomic
Bomb and the Nuclear Age

...

With the Wehrmacht poised to blast its way into Russia soon,
and sensing enormous profits to be made in the effort, the Farben
directors decided to finance the enormous plant privately, rather
than in concert with the Nazi regime, earmarking 900,000,000
Reichsmarks - nearly $250,000,000 in 1945 dollars or over $2
billion in contemporary dollars - to the project. It was to be the
Buna plant to dwarf all other Buna plants.
However, as the testimony at the Nuremberg War Crimes
Tribunal unfolded, the Auschwitz Buna factory emerged as one of
the big mysteries of the war, for in spite of the enormous sum of
money set aside for its construction, in spite of the personal
blessings of Hitler, Himmler, Goring, and Keitel, and in spite of an
endless supply both of skilled company contract laborers and an
endless supply of slave labor from Auschwitz, "the project was
continually disrupted by shortages, breakdowns, and delays....
Some malign influence seemed to be affecting the entire operation"
to such an extent that Farben appeared to be faced with the first
failure in its long corporate history of technological success.6
By
1942, the whole effort was viewed by many directors not only as a
failure, but as a near disaster.7
>

Page 25 "Electricity, Slaves And Buna"
https://wikispooks.com/w/images/4/44/Re ... ck_Sun.pdf

The reason the defense industry in almost any country is so heavily corrupted is because the levels of investment have to be enormous and the returns must therefore be guaranteed in developmental condition of high risk as operational emphasis, funding vagaries, requirement creep and technical intelligence espionage often make the small achieved leads very transient. Bluntly then, you DO NOT seriously leverage your company unless the fix is in which means 900 million RM for a Buna plant powered by electricity instead of a simple coal or oil fired boiler is NOT going to happen. Not when Germany, a past master of the technology, had multiple other facilities already in operation or construction. Ergo, Buna 102 was not a synthetic rubber facility. Which is why the world's master chemists at the time couldn't make it work. Uranium separation, particularly with a gas diffusion plant using Hex, one of the most caustic, toxic and explosive gas carriers known, is a plumbing nightmare and despite things like Bondur and other supporting science, it is not at all strange that a wartime country would have a hard time bringing such a Uranium Separation facility into operation. Because, up to that time, GD was only a laboratory technique, useful for separating tiny quantities of U235 for experimental purposes. Nonetheless, it could be scaled up because, provided the sinterized holes in the fiters didn't clog, you could make constant-loop runs, adding tiny amounts of fresh UH6, until you started getting noteworrthy ('clumped') quantities of the mass differentiated particles out of the recycative process.

This is a wish list, printed on Page 57 of _Nuclear Axis_, by Phillip Henshal, as transmtted to the Japanese Embassy in Berlin, across the land telegraph line to the Home Islands which the Russians chose not to cut:

1. Beryllium, 2,300kg.
Sent on a separate boat (U-873), some 1,400 bars (2.5 tons) of a material that was brittle, toxic and very difficult to work with. Beryllium really is not a pleasant material and the few uses it had before the war (poisons, watch springs etc.) were replaced by better alternatives because it really is more hazardous and difficult to machine than it is worth. Except. In the nuclear industry. Where Beryllium is both a reflector and a radio source (when mixed with radium or another fuel) which can be used to 'light' a pile or as a spark plug in a nuclear weapon (neutron source). A Beryllium reflector keeps a reactor's neutron flux state high, so that the uranium can transmute to plutonium. And keeps a bomb from dissembling for the microsecond it takes for the fission event to go supercritial, at a higher yield. Interestingly, the U.S. had only limited access to Beryllium and Zirconium this greatly inhibited our own nuclear program.

2. Diamond Dies.
Hard with a hole of perfect diameter drilled through it, any wire drawn through a diamond die guarantees absolutely uniform width as conductivity for electrical signals monitoring high precision instruments in a nuclear reactor.

3. Metallic Zirconium, 500kg (99.5% pure).
Neutron Absorber, not as hard as Beryllium to work with, used to this very day as a control rod material because it can be alloyed with nickel steel for longevity in high radiation environments. It's sole weakness being that it is contaminated with Hafnium which poisons nuclear reactions. It must thus be pure.

4. Metallic Lithium, 500kg.
Mixed with Deuterium, it acts as a booster agent to provide extra neutrons for 'tickling the dragon's tail' (creating fissile events with subcritical quantities of fuel. LD6, with Tritium can also increase nominal yields by enormous amounts. 20KT to 400KT with just a few 'pockets' of this material being added to the wad or the pusher.

5. Neon Gas.
Used to check for leaks of radioactive material or gasses, 'sparks' when high energy partices fly through it.

6. Insulating Material (Asbestos or some kinds of ceramics).
Keeps perfect gauge wire from 'adding to' it's standing voltage with radiation induced additional charge. Again, reactor core stuff with some bomb (fusing) applications.

7. Some 2,000 or more Haspekerne.
Core Clamps. Any piping or wire bundles in a nuclear reactor have to be held in place through extreme temperature and radiation fluxes without constricting or burning what they clasp. Essentially a retaining clip but one which has to be made from very special ceramics.

8. Polarizing Microscope.
The diagnostic version of a scintillance detector, good for checking fuel rod test samples to look for impurities which will show up in differentiated Cerenkov radiation, indicating possible hafnium (or other) contaminants that could effect radiation densites which could poison a reaction.

9. Cam Shaft grinders.
Useful in machining very precise gauge connectors, seals, any of a dozen things which have short working lives because of the caustic or radioactive effects of a nuclear environment and because it uses an offset wheel it has much more precision vis a vis the ability of the cam to engage or disengage the grinder very quickly. Again, NOTHING in a nuclear system can be half assed. We are talking clearances on centrifuges where a hair's diameter jams a blade and oils from your hands can throw the perfectly balanced rotor out. Either of which is disatrous at 50-100,000rpm as the device shreds itself.

10. Thallium (106kg)
Another nasty, metallic, compound, lethally toxic and apt to get into /everything/ it touches that gets wet, causing contamination. Useful in photo detectors however to greatly increase their sensitivity which has applications in both reactor core controls and in detonators which employ scattered IR radation to trigger implosion rather than wired circuits whose conductance speed is a variance of length, geometry (pinches cause lag through density changes in the bend) and purety of the wire.

11. Steel (6,110kg) (likely Maraged)
What you have to have to make centrifuges in particular workable as this type of steel is particularly resistant to the corrosive effects of certain compounds.

12. Mercury (1,926kg)
Useful in transporting Plutonium which is toxic, flammable and explosive.

13. 'Uranium Oxide' (560kg)
Useless if it's U238. Even as a radio source for radiological weapons. However; the key is the quantities. You cannot transport U235 in 10 cases of 56kg as that amount is, by itself, a critical mass. But at the same time, you don't transport yellow cake in gold lined casks, ordinary cotton rag sacks will do.

14. Fuses (Detonators).
The Geniuses on the MDP could not figure out how to make a plutonium weapon detonate. The Germans had to because they were likely using VERY hot Pu240 isomers or perhaps thorium as U233 which likely had to be slammed together through a series of graphite/parafin laced insulator walls from both sides to assemble criticality fast enough to matter and would explosively dissemble itself if you tried an ordinary gun-method.
Heinz Schlicke brought the fuses and his knowledge (U-234 was probably /never/ intended to reach Japan, the Japanese Naval Officers likely did not die peacefully, in their cabin) and Luis Alvarez, upon interrogating him and retrieving the fuses from the U-Boat, ordered the drilling of the Gadget pit for presumably either IR illuminators or Tritium pocket inserts or both.

Bang. Trinity.

POINT BEING: If the IAEA found these in a shipping container marked 'Eyes Only, Kris Kringle, Don't Open Until December 24th' they would be booking flights to the North Pole within hours. Taken together they have ONE function. Nuclear Industry. And for them to be shipped out, via U-Boat, to Japan, as the Reich's last gasp of military industrial technology sharing, means that not only did Japan have a highly advanced nuclear reactor. But so did Germany.

And we knew it, because we had Ultra. And had spend most of 1944 and all of 1945 sinking 11 and, I believe, capturing, at least one of the NINETEEN U-Boats going back and forth from Japan to Germany. Going so far as to track down these subs off the Horn of Africa, _far_ from the convoy lanes. Risking the loss of the Ultra Secret.

This is why the CIA has spent the last 70 odd years and billions of dollars (Glomar Challenger) Hunting the sunken U-Boats. This is why U-864 is entombed in concrete in 150m of Norwegian waters, even though that is the LAST thing you would do if facing a creaky hull filled with vials of mercury as your justification. It is why U-534 was raised from the Kattegut and 'shock, amazement, horror' discovered to have guided torpedos onboard because HMS Venturer, the which sank U-864, practically within sight of the Fedje island but WELL beyond the Bergen channel meant we had entered an era of sub on sub warfare under conditions in which it was clearly _not_ a random intercept, the British crew knew exactly where to hunt and fired gyro only torps into the enemy subs location. Causing U-534 to be sent out with one of the few homing weapons which the Kriegsmarine could reasonably fight back with.

But why sortie at all? If the war is within weeks of being over?

Again, the Germans were not stupid. They would know that the RN could only have been cued to the EXACT location and time of sailing to catch their submerged U-Boat one way: code compromise. That means Enigma was blown. That is the level of signals intelligence dominance that the Allies were willing to risk losing to get the Operation Caesar boats.

Why? What were they carrying?

Finally, there are numerous ways to detonate a nuclear weapon. These days, with highly energetic complex nano-molecular chain explosives we can get hot enough temperatures to probably do a low yield fusion weapon without a radio fuel at all. In April 1945, with the Austrians, having sabotaged the Germans one last time by removing the detonators from the weapons they sent north 'for Hitler's birthday', there can only have been a few alternatives.

The likeliest one is a system called 'photo chemical'.

Which is to say transmutation of Thorium or Uranium in a Tokomak or high energy capacitor discharge system. Which is what 'The Bell' was, with a twist. It also functioned as a centrifuge as the Germans were creating bosonic compression at the same time they zapped the fuel with high energy, conditioned, voltage. Electricity doesn't exist as AC/DC, like the atoms themselves, it has several charge and polar states and, at the time and for the next 50-60 years, the most uniform electrical capacitor for fast discharge was the Von Ardenne Device. A system which remained in use in nuclear test facilities until the 1980s. You know /that/ Von Ardenne? Hitler's civilian consultant on nuclear matters after Todt died? Yeah, him.

So, you spin up the motors to several tens of thousands of RPM, the atomic fuel is compressed by inertial forces and then you slam a foot ball stadiums worth of klieg lights as conditioned electrical mayhem into the merging electron orbits in about a microsecond until they 'jump', to a higher charge state.

And stay there.

During this process, they emit a sharply defined gamma pulse, similar to the frequency and phase specific waveform of coherent radar and and this gamma is often referred to as 'white light' photons. If you have the correct kind of photo detector, you know it's done deal.

Reverse this process, either with explosives or another precision VAD counter charge and the isomer goes from metastable back to ground and emits ANOTHER big dose of gamma radiation. Gamma is a lot of things, none of them very healthy, but more than anything, it is heat. Heat = Pressure at the kinds of calorie densities we're talking about, that pressure is enough to cause LD6 to fuse.

Remember Von Ardenne? What was his final project of the war at his enormous Lichterfelde estate underground laboratory? Why, it was isolation of Lithium from Salt Brine and Pitchblende. Lithium, in the nuclear industry, becomes Lithium Deuteride 6 which is a great source of Neutrons in a fusion event (the Lithium stabilizes the Deteurium so that it can be plasticized) and that flood of fast neutrons, when moving from a pusher to a tamper, into a secondary wad, of U238, gives you...bang.

Gamma cascade-fusion neutrons-excited fission RCR.

One of the things which made Castle Bravo so damn big and dangerous was that nobody though U238 could be made to go boom. But it can be, if it is in an ongoing fission event of U235. They made the tamper for the CB weapon from U238 as a heavy, stable, neutron insenstive metal. And they went from 6-8MT to about 15 in a flash.

Guess what, those poor dumb Huns who couldn't even get a reactor right, were making tactical weapons with levitated pits, hybrid fuel, dual wad warheads and pushers and tampers, in a 250kg weapon, in 1945. Because some idiot named Morgenthau made it clear he intended to kill every German he could, plow under their culture and salt the earth they had walked on.

Getting a gun bomb is simple. There is no cool down. There are certain materials handling requirements related mostly to the sheer nastiness of the Hexafluoride in a Gas Diffusion loop. But the only thing you REALLY NEED is _time_. Goering gave IG Farben the green light on Buna 102 in 1941. While we were still twiddling our thumbs with the Brits on Tube Alloys.

And around half of the at least 3,000 tons of Belgian Congo Uranium is still MISSING from the total recovered at wars end while Paul Harteck, who worked with the SS black program at Monawitz, where Buna 102 was located, _saw_ an IG Farben process by which a tons of Uranium could be smelted per day, by 3 people.

The Germans had the Time. They had the Genius. And like us, they had the wisdom to create multiple, redundant, processes, in case one or more failed to generate results or was blown to bits by Allied action.

Finally, we come to your 'but, but, there were no reactors!' statement. Not true. There is a video from an english translation of a German documentary program which YouTube has subsequently taken down, in which, in 1990 or so, German historians 'rediscovered' a set of buildings which were so hot that even shoving the geiger counter under a hole dug near the foundation the needle pegged to the limits. Scattered all around the facility were chunks of uranium and paraffin, melted to slag.

The 'official' story is that this facility (I assume Kiln 4 at Gattow) was being run to extremis for the purposes of FINALLY getting the cross-sectional data which would prove that sustainable reactions could take place on the basis of neutron flux vs. inverse root radii of separations.

Paul Harteck had tried to do this work in 1941 with his so called 'low temperature' (cryo) experiments and The White Jew, Heisenberg, so jealous of his position as reactor program chief and overall head honcho of the Ureinveren, had Harteck's Uranium taken away by the Reich's Research Council so he could get no credit not due to Heisenberg's reactor dream.

The Gattow, mid-1943, effort being the sequel, ironically under Kurt Diebner whom Heisenberg also hated and feared but could not get to because Diebner was HWA (Army), not civilian.

If so, the truth is that they likely had a system similar to the Squash Court device we used in Chicago, almost a year earlier, with a layered pancake effect of Paraffin (carrying carbon graphite moderator), fuel and a liquid methane cooling system and...someone got careless.

This would be easy enough to do, impurities in the carbon would cause it to heat differentially. And that would melt the paraffin, causing the insulative moderator to flow away from the fuel, increasing the neutron flux density which would, in turn, spike the temperatue again, making it hard for the methane to stay cryoed enough for the pumps to keep up with the thermal load on the pile cool and...ho boy.

The problem is that, radio dating puts the time frame closer to 1944-45 /and/...they found plutonium. The Germans knew about Plutonium and how to get it through an intermediate daughter of Uranium. Called it E94 I believe. Yet plutonium is tricky to create and really only happens in a multizone breeder reactor. That's why you cannot use a standard steam powerplant to make bombs, one specific part of the fuel has be a lot zippier than the rest, under tighter moderator control.

The documentary filmer literally held up a chunk of plutonium cast several hundred meters down range, to the camera. That means a steam explosion blew off the roof rather than just melting through the floor and that means a lot of people probably died. Because they were desperately trying to punch through four or five lines of development, taking shortcuts, working without the kinds of spares and care that the latewar environment made hard to find but which is critical to safe experimental nuclear engineering.

And if it is a 1945 effort, we know NOTHING of it. Nor will we, until more Japan-bound cargo U-Boat manifests are published and we have to finally ask the idiots in charge: "Why, if there was no serious plutonium bomb effort, did they have all this stuff, essential to a reactor?"

The German Atomic Effort is not well known. The Allied Myth is. Because good must beat evil since it proves god/fate/historians approve of the outcome, vae victis. Supporting this truth is the certainty that we obviously developed the better wartoyz. See: Arthur and Excalibur. Roland and Durandal. Jedi and Lightsabers.

The best war-fiction is always written by the victors.

I believe the combination of evidentiary fragments and the sheer scope of the massive and prolonged (they just found the last boat, a couple years ago) coverup/recovery effort means that the truth is that the Germans beat us through the finish wire on nukes by at least six months and maybe as much as 13-14 (July 20th, 1944).

Having no choice, as we leveled Germany as Europe, around their ears, they innovated to work with less radio fuel by cheating the neutron flux counts. They used engineers shortcuts where the Americans tried to understand 'why'. And they advanced into an entirely new area, based on transmutation which was a specialty of men like Gerlach.

As a result, they had 1-2 (few) city killers. And a bunch of tacticals. The ultimate danger of which is again, inherent to the Russians choosing to 'listen in' on a telegraph cable rather than chop it.

Because it means that, even in April 1945, there was a chance, that, as the Soviet Forces came into possession of the Eastern test centers (including Von Ardenne's giant lab), while we were left with only the FACO production lines, they could have got the techs and the strategic materials to similarly MASTER THE PROCESS, if not the physics, of a nuclear weapon.

Leaving us to face those tactical nukes, even as we were still more than 3 months from our own city killers. At the very end, Otto Skorzeny did a lot of his best work, across the FLOT, cleaning up the German nuclear nightmare by blowing up facilities in the East.

And he had to do this because the security of the SS run system was so much better (hand couriered via the Himmlerwaffe like a Pony Express, SAR restricted reader list, signed copies with individual text variances which identified traitors, instantly), we didn't even know this secondary effort existed, until someone told the Dulles'. And then ALSOS ranged far and wide, across Germany. But coudn't find what had long since been moved out of bomber range. Right into the Soviet's hands.

The nature of the strategic weapons was simple, based on cumulative separation efforts of which the disassembled Buna 102, was the largest. This faciliy was torn down, brick and bat, by late 1943, removed early so that the Russians could not have it. Most likely, the Germans had got all the U235 they were going to, from their small stockpile and sent most to SIII/Jonastahl to cook up a few vats of plutonium.

It was the Me-109/Ju-87 compatible tacticals which were unique. Because (I believe) it espoused a method which, to this day, the public do not know the full functional truth of. As it could change the way atomics are viewed as high tech wonder weapons when they can in fact be made into cheap and easy flash-fusion bombs of .75-2KT yield. With a nasty gamma residue.

These tactical bombs were long and skinny, hence not early implosion weapons. And too small (250KG) for what we know of gun-weapon required fuel mass. They have a polished steel rear end which is likely a beryllium reflector which fed an internal tamper with stacked disks of paraffin separating LD6 or tritium and plutonium-240 isomer (Xerum 525) that, when crushed explosively or /triggered/ by a VAD to cascade back to groundstate, sent a gamma pulse through the deuterium, fusing the heavy hydrogen and releasing two neutrons per molecule which then flashed a secondary wad of U238.

The weapons are shown, in all of a single wartime picture, suspended beneath an ETC bombrack under an Me-109K4. And may wel use a saddle collar akin to the T28 system employed with the similarly skinny Mk.8, off the AD-4 Skyraider.

Given the weapon was intended to be delivered from a dive from 7,000m, had to clear the prop arc this sadde likely simply served to help force the bomb away from the prop arc. The problm being that dive toss is used to improve threat standoff and _accuracy_ and the weapons were also supposedly parachute equipped which ruins accuracy.

An alternative is that the weapon was itself 'hot', requiring a lead shield. This stands to reason, given that the bombs also supposedly had to be filled within a few hours of use. This latter characteristic is a key signatures of a metastable material on a short clock.

http://i.imgur.com/TUjWi3B.png
http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/Usa/Weapons/Mk8.jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/67/b0/58/67b0 ... 077300.jpg

If I am right, the only thing that saved the Russians from a terrible mauling in front of the Seelowe Heights and the Western Allies from similar treatment by the Werewolves with proto-SADM backpacks or VBIEDs as an occupational garrison force under constant insurgent siege (Hitler cheering them on from the Alpenfestung), was that someone, likely Kammler or Bormann, with Hitler's 'get me outta here!' blessing, gave away the city killer as a Dead Pledge to the Allies who could in turn provide safe-passage assurances that the Japanese never had.

There but for political corruption as usual, WWII ends as the world's first nuclear conflict.

The Messageners between the Allies and Axis leadership were likely SS General Karl Wolff and The Dulles Brothers, meeting in Bern, Switzerland; and it's likely the negotiation went as far back as the aftermath of the Strasbourg Conference as, rather than when Himmler and Goering both tried to 'reveal the secret' to save their own skins.

The Allies being neither surprised nor interested at that point.

The transfer also have been secured more directly, as there are other rumours that U-Boats and Ju-290s also made the trans-Atlantik trip to bring industrialists together to guarantee the survival of corporate assets in an endkrieg condition which was never about moral victory but rather the transfer of power from one empire to another, trying to keep the lid on certain technical secrets as soft capital. Though not as diversified, the corporate multinationals were indeed /that/ strong, even then. (See: 'Schwarz Ritter' and 'Weisser Wolfe').

Don't believe me? Listen to David Irving who talked to both Edward Teller and Werner Heisenberg-

(In preparation for _The Virus House_)

Irving: 'Do you think the Germans would have done better if Jews had not left Germany in the wake of the Nuremburg Laws? Did antisemitism change the course of the war?'

Heisenberg: 'Herr Irving, the best German Physicists stayed in Germany!'

Later, at Stanford, Irving: 'Professor Teller, Doktor Heisenberg says the best German physicists stayed in Germany.'

Teller: 'Herr Irving, Heisenberg vass right!'

This was not a joke. Teller Ulam is based on Houtermanns/Von Ardenne.

The 'bad guys' had the best weapons. And the White Hats took them and used them on innocents. For no damn reason at all. This is the farce of tragedy that WWII ended on and it's worst evil is the precedent it set: unannounced attacks by nuclear forces on civilian targets are permissible.

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T. A. Gardner
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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by T. A. Gardner » 30 Sep 2017 02:52

OMFG! What a who's who of conspiracy theorists on the subject there was in that...

Richard Anderson
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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by Richard Anderson » 30 Sep 2017 03:01

T. A. Gardner wrote:OMFG! What a who's who of conspiracy theorists on the subject there was in that...
Oh come on! Doesn't the near perfect incoherence, random capitalization, and bated-breath tone convince you?
"Is all this pretentious pseudo intellectual citing of sources REALLY necessary? It gets in the way of a good, spirited debate, destroys the cadence." POD, 6 October 2018

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williamjpellas
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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by williamjpellas » 30 Sep 2017 03:12

T. A. Gardner wrote:The US tried all three known (at the time) methods to enrich uranium: Gaseous diffusion, electromagnetic separation, and centrifuge. They got a total amount of material to make 2 or 3 bombs at most from it. If plutonium hadn't been discovered and a method devised to make it work as a weapon, atomic bomb programs would have likely ended with a handful of low yield weapons produced worldwide.

That Germany might have tried electromagnetic separation on some laboratory scale is meaningless. They weren't producing anything close to what would have been necessary to build a working bomb. As the US program showed, they would have had to establish an enrichment program on a vast scale that wouldn't have gone unnoticed when the war ended.
The US did not attempt the centrifuge (ultracentrifuge) method during WWII. Japan did and so did Germany. The Manhattan Project utilized gaseous diffusion, electromagnetic separation, and thermal diffusion separation after absorbing a parallel US Navy project under Philip Abelson that was using thermal diffusion columns to achieve U-235 enrichment.

Tiger B: Teller stated for the record that he "found the (earlier) German work (in H-bomb theory) to be very useful". I hadn't considered Houtermanns but he was certainly an early pioneer. IIRC, Teller was talking about Karl Gottfried Gudderley's convergent shockwave solution, at least in the quote I am discussing here.

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