First atomic bomb was German !?!

Discussions on the equipment used by the Axis forces, apart from the things covered in the other sections. Hosted by Juha Tompuri
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williamjpellas
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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by williamjpellas » 30 Sep 2017 03:42

T. A. Gardner wrote:
Tiger B wrote:Which is entirely workable, if you are thinking November 1945-January 1946 from the perspective of May 1945 as U-234 pulls into the docks with a cargo of U235.

It's the MANDATORY cooldown and chemical separation lag that makes plutonium from a hot load of weapons grade Uranium in a pile take 6-8 months.
This is completely wrong. U234 represents .005% and U235 .702% of unenriched uranium. There is no evidence to support that Germany was able on a mass scale to enrich uranium of any sort to any level above what was found naturally. So, what the US got from captured German uranium stocks was unenriched. It would take months, if not years to process it.

The cool down period is weeks, not months as most of the radiation given off is from short-lived fission fragments. The long-lived ones decay at a very slow rate meaning their radioactivity given off is low. The process to collect the plutonium, likewise, takes days, not months. See for example the PUREX process.

The Hanford site in Washington eventually had 4 working plutonium production reactors with at least two more planned, and potentially another 4 on top of that had the war continued. Plutonium production in the US was ramping up when the war ended.

You're right about PUREX. There's also THOREX for reducing contamination of reactor-produced U-233 down to practically zero.

But you're wrong about there being "no evidence to support (the idea) that Germany was able on a mass scale to enrich uranium of any sort to any level above what was found naturally". Ever heard of this guy?

http://www.militarycityusaradio.org/mai ... ck-author/

Here is a link to his book, Critical Mass:

http://xlivescom.synthasite.com/resourc ... 20Bomb.pdf

And here is his presentation to the US nuclear weapons establishment at Oak Ridge National Laboratory:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1kWVnPNQac&t=400s

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by T. A. Gardner » 30 Sep 2017 05:33

Richard Anderson wrote:
T. A. Gardner wrote:OMFG! What a who's who of conspiracy theorists on the subject there was in that...
Oh come on! Doesn't the near perfect incoherence, random capitalization, and bated-breath tone convince you?
I like the David Irving quotes at the end... Nothing like a Holocaust denier and Nazi apologist to give you the facts on Nazi Germany... :D

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by T. A. Gardner » 30 Sep 2017 05:43

williamjpellas wrote:
T. A. Gardner wrote:
Tiger B wrote:Which is entirely workable, if you are thinking November 1945-January 1946 from the perspective of May 1945 as U-234 pulls into the docks with a cargo of U235.

It's the MANDATORY cooldown and chemical separation lag that makes plutonium from a hot load of weapons grade Uranium in a pile take 6-8 months.
This is completely wrong. U234 represents .005% and U235 .702% of unenriched uranium. There is no evidence to support that Germany was able on a mass scale to enrich uranium of any sort to any level above what was found naturally. So, what the US got from captured German uranium stocks was unenriched. It would take months, if not years to process it.

The cool down period is weeks, not months as most of the radiation given off is from short-lived fission fragments. The long-lived ones decay at a very slow rate meaning their radioactivity given off is low. The process to collect the plutonium, likewise, takes days, not months. See for example the PUREX process.

The Hanford site in Washington eventually had 4 working plutonium production reactors with at least two more planned, and potentially another 4 on top of that had the war continued. Plutonium production in the US was ramping up when the war ended.

You're right about PUREX. There's also THOREX for reducing contamination of reactor-produced U-233 down to practically zero.

But you're wrong about there being "no evidence to support (the idea) that Germany was able on a mass scale to enrich uranium of any sort to any level above what was found naturally". Ever heard of this guy?

http://www.militarycityusaradio.org/mai ... ck-author/

Here is a link to his book, Critical Mass:

http://xlivescom.synthasite.com/resourc ... 20Bomb.pdf

And here is his presentation to the US nuclear weapons establishment at Oak Ridge National Laboratory:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1kWVnPNQac&t=400s

Interesting. Hadn't seen this before, but then again, I'm not the expert on Nazi atomic projects in WW 2 either. I do have a background in nuclear power so I usually can tell when somebody's saying stuff that stinks of wrong.

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by Tiger B » 30 Sep 2017 06:19

sandeepmukherjee196 wrote:
williamjpellas wrote:To my knowledge, sandeep is correct when it comes to the state of the art, so to speak, of German nerve gas. It was far more deadly than any comparable US or other Allied gas weapon---so far as is known or has surfaced in the public realm to date. However: wm is absolutely correct to point to vastly superior Allied logistics and control of the air as certain to be decisive in the event of a gas weapon - WMD exchange in the latter days of WWII. And the Allies had an ace up their sleeve. Even as the Germans had superior gas agents, the British had superior biological weapons. Their stockpile of anthrax was as fearsome and deadly a Doomsday weapon as any of the warring powers had or thought to possess. In short, had Germany even thought about attacking the Allies with nerve gas, the British would have seeded the entire German nation with anthrax within a week. This would have meant genocide of the German people for all intents and purposes. In my opinion, this deterrent is also the most likely explanation for why the alleged-to-exist German nuclear weapons (in whatever form) were not used---at least not against the Western Allies. There is of course the matter of various documents attesting to their existence and purported use against the USSR on the eastern front.
Hi William..

The British anthrax angle certainly gives food for thought. I am largely in the dark till now on this issue.

However on the issue of "German nuclear weapons (in whatever form)" I find the existence of atomic weapons in whatever form in the German arsenal strictly an imaginary proposition.

To my knowledge there is absolutely no question of any operationalised german nuclear weapon in WW II. So the purported use of such weapons on the eastern front is impossible.

Ciao
Sanders
sandeepmukherjee196 wrote:
williamjpellas wrote:To my knowledge, sandeep is correct when it comes to the state of the art, so to speak, of German nerve gas. It was far more deadly than any comparable US or other Allied gas weapon---so far as is known or has surfaced in the public realm to date. However: wm is absolutely correct to point to vastly superior Allied logistics and control of the air as certain to be decisive in the event of a gas weapon - WMD exchange in the latter days of WWII. And the Allies had an ace up their sleeve. Even as the Germans had superior gas agents, the British had superior biological weapons. Their stockpile of anthrax was as fearsome and deadly a Doomsday weapon as any of the warring powers had or thought to possess. In short, had Germany even thought about attacking the Allies with nerve gas, the British would have seeded the entire German nation with anthrax within a week. This would have meant genocide of the German people for all intents and purposes. In my opinion, this deterrent is also the most likely explanation for why the alleged-to-exist German nuclear weapons (in whatever form) were not used---at least not against the Western Allies. There is of course the matter of various documents attesting to their existence and purported use against the USSR on the eastern front.
Hi William..

The British anthrax angle certainly gives food for thought. I am largely in the dark till now on this issue.

However on the issue of "German nuclear weapons (in whatever form)" I find the existence of atomic weapons in whatever form in the German arsenal strictly an imaginary proposition.

To my knowledge there is absolutely no question of any operationalised german nuclear weapon in WW II. So the purported use of such weapons on the eastern front is impossible.

Ciao
Sanders
Radiologics trump Anthrax because they are less likely to get up on their hind legs and go walkabout and harder to defend against in terms of suits and filters. Any chemical toxin can be defeated by going sealed suit (rubberized cloth) and closed loop air. Moreover, even the most persistent chemical agent rapidly loses potency as UV, wind and water disperse and thin it's concentration. Radiologics don't and thus form superior ADEN barriers.

Radiation requires sealed vehicle protection to operate in a contaminated area effectively and the contamination is a lot harder to be rid of especially in builtups. Radiologics scattered by an Arado 234 over the invasion beaches (you could use a fairly large, internal, sprayer based on a pneumatic pump, maintaining speed by carrying and dropping fuel tanks instead of bombs) become a more or less permanent barrier (6-8 weeks) and also have the nasty benefit of cutting specific access to support elements.

An army on the move is a hammer. An army fixed in place for want of POL, ammo and spares is a drum.

Where Anthrax becomes problematic is in it's use against broad areas. Some form of the Walkure effort would quickly contain local breakouts (you cannot drop the stuff from altitude as, frozen, it dies) and rapid corpse treatment with chemical agents (killing rats) and burning of animal corpses would deny it legs. It would take about week for a city to be incapacitated with biologics, supposing you could develop a proximity fuse or intervalometer to properly disperse them without frying the agent. More than enough time to evacuate most of the population.

It would take less than an hour for a highly energetic radiologic to begin to rapidly disable both wide swaths of an urban population and emergency services while high altitude dispersal is actually helpful and it cannot be 'burnt'.

Rapid dissemination coverage to perpetuate the crisis thus becomes an issue, especially as all fighters of the era were more or less equal (370-390mph top speed, 4-6G turn) at low altitude, once the turbo vs. chemical booster and octane issues were equalized. You would not want to try low penetration with a bomber force more than once, you could not reach very deep into the Reich with fighters at low level and, if jumped while carrying sprayer tanks, they would be seriously mauled by superior numbers of equal airframes operating on much shorter radii.

Whereas the radiologic threat of an SA-4000 class weapon, dropped over a major port, early in the invasion, given altitude HELPS the dispersal pattern, means that civilian dockworker and sailor deaths will ultimately trump the landed forces as well, providing the opportunity for another, MAJOR, Allied defeat. Along the lines of the early Russian campaign in terms of effectives capture.

Likely due to his own wartime experience of CW, Hitler made a mistake.

He probably had radiologics, simply because they are cheap and easy to produce compared to nukes while BIOS reports detail what sound like 3-4 additional betatron or similar particle separator facilities in several of the occupied university towns of Germany, which points to the ability to rapidly build up and sustain a permanent inventory of carbon or even simple sand based radiologicals as an alternative to trying (with Greifs and Hs-293, getting all of what, five ship kills out of a couple thousand naval vessels committed during the campaign?) for a conventional ASUW effort.

And because these are ADEN measures, by creating a double barrier capability in both beachhead runs and tip'n'run port denial, you can let the enemy simply fight themselves dry without damaging much of the French interior.

Given the storms don't crash both Mulberries, you might even try, experimentally, for the amphib anchorage itself, possibly interdicting NGS fire support.

Choke any one of these and pressure goes off the Wehrmacht units which were already doing fairly well for themselves, in front of Caen and in the Bocage.

Such is the difference between trying to institute a mass panic in a country where distance isolates as much as enables the rise of pathogens. Versus maneuver containment of an active military offensive through narrow TCP chokes in a concentrated force area.

Hitler employs a radiologic weapon and Winning Winnie goes mad with Anthrax in response like he did in Iraq. Hitler gets 70% coverage per sortie that reaches release from untouchable fields, deep in France or the Low Countries. The RAF gets maybe 10-15% from altitude and 30-50% from lolo Mosquito runs.

The RAF/USAAF can only reach about halfway across Germany unless they shuttle. With heavy use of drop tanks, the Germans can reach the Normandy area from the German border or Belgium.

London dies, followed by Portsmouth, Southampton, Poole and Portland. Then Hitler goes OCA and 8th AF fields begin to be hit. And once you have done it in the West, there is nothing at all to stop you from doing it in the East as stabilizing the split Army fronts of Bagration becomes possible.

In an escalation battle, between radiologicals and biologicals, the Germans win. And we know they had them because men like Oppenheimer wrote opinion pieces on how bad it would be (IMO, because they knew we were losing the atomic race) _if we used them_.

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by T. A. Gardner » 30 Sep 2017 06:51

Now we're into "What if's"...

But, alpha and beta emitters aren't all that dangerous. Anthrax is overrated as a weapon, and the Allies had the means to return 10 x over whatever Germany tossed their way in the form of CBR warfare.

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by Tiger B » 30 Sep 2017 08:52

T. A. Gardner wrote:Now we're into "What if's"...

But, alpha and beta emitters aren't all that dangerous. Anthrax is overrated as a weapon, and the Allies had the means to return 10 x over whatever Germany tossed their way in the form of CBR warfare.
No. Because Alpha deposits it's energy over short emission distances, it tends to highly energize subjected materials and tissues. Stay in one place with high alpha and you will damage whatever is exposed. Depending on how much you dose the carrier material, the fact that alpha causes secondary resonance period release of gamma or neutron ionizing radiation means that an entire area (roadway) can be contaminated and where this road occurs at a natural choke (beachhead exits) you can seriously injure troops trying to pass through it.

According to the All-lied Myth, there was ONE betatron, at the Curie Institute. Yet BIOS and ALSO also found one at Strasbourg and another at Stadtilm and a third at Lichterfelde. There is no reporting for what was discovered in Austria. Given that Grove's _Now It Can Be Told_ was written much later, after this period, there is no excuse of ignorance.

Only of fear. Fear that knowledge would become widespread that we fought a war of extended greed, ignoring what we THOUGHT we knew about the German bomb and then covering up the differential of gaps in that knowledge to maintain the purety of legend that was a 'No bomb program' Germany.

Given the Germans could also produce Beryllium by the short ton and disintegration of Beryllium doesn't occur until 1.6MEV, if these alternative partice separators could charge to that level, then ANYTHING they were exposed to could also become a radio emitter. This time of neutrons and gamma.

You cannot choke an entire country with biologics if you cannot even reliably reach it. But if you are standing on the frontstep of someone's house, beating on their door, that geographic fixpoint lets you be shotgunned through the entrance. This is the area vs. point target difference in that, everywhere you stand on a beachhead that has had radiologics dropped on it is dosing you up. And you cannot get rid of it until you decontam with a shower for you and your vehicle.

Nor can anyone who comes behind you, with ammo and fuel. You will transit the choke, and all the approaches to it. And no matter how often it rains or the tides come in, that radiological is always going to be there. In a very efficient package which can be stored in volume and sprayed like paint behind fast moving jet or blown apart via a burster charge, from a 'Korsett' equipped V-2 or an extended warhead section V-1. Both of which existed because there are published drawings of the modified missile body casings.

The fact that radiologics come a lot closer to the traditional vision of 'poisons everything' atomic weapons than do fissile bombs (excepting neutron weapons) is telling because it does what Hitler needed it to do which was establish a block-force containment condition by which to isolate enemy units in the field, until such time as he could turn his attention fully to counter value retaliation.

WE had no rockets nor jets. Thus any attempt at biological warfare can be handled by conventional DCA.

Hitler had all three delivery options and the betatrons to make a lot of contaminant in a very short time.

Only the lack of Rayleigh Taylor firework effect prevented him, as you, from seeing the obvious. Decapitation as counter-terror is not how you defeat forces in the field. Logistical starvation is.

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by T. A. Gardner » 30 Sep 2017 16:55

Now it's totally into a very fanciful "What if..." No reality in that whatsoever...

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by williamjpellas » 30 Sep 2017 17:57

T. A. Gardner wrote:
Richard Anderson wrote:
T. A. Gardner wrote:OMFG! What a who's who of conspiracy theorists on the subject there was in that...
Oh come on! Doesn't the near perfect incoherence, random capitalization, and bated-breath tone convince you?
I like the David Irving quotes at the end... Nothing like a Holocaust denier and Nazi apologist to give you the facts on Nazi Germany... :D

Irving may be a Nazi sympathizer but he is also the only major historian I know of who was able to personally interview all, or nearly all, of the then-surviving members of the wartime German nuclear science establishment. He appears to have stumbled across a few wisps of information about the HWA - Schumann - Trinks - Diebner - Gerlach project, but didn't recognize them as being part of an effort that was separate from what was going on at the KWI. But the point here is that Irving is not to be dismissed because of his political views. His book The Virus House rightly remains one of the major works on WWII German nuclear weapons R&D.

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by T. A. Gardner » 30 Sep 2017 20:03

williamjpellas wrote:Irving may be a Nazi sympathizer but he is also the only major historian I know of who was able to personally interview all, or nearly all, of the then-surviving members of the wartime German nuclear science establishment. He appears to have stumbled across a few wisps of information about the HWA - Schumann - Trinks - Diebner - Gerlach project, but didn't recognize them as being part of an effort that was separate from what was going on at the KWI. But the point here is that Irving is not to be dismissed because of his political views. His book The Virus House rightly remains one of the major works on WWII German nuclear weapons R&D.
Yes, Irving had his moments of useful historical contribution. But, he's really more of a talented amateur historian. His dive into Holocaust denial and often going off on tangents of the Nazi fanboi sort don't help his credibility, and I for one would want other verification if it's available.

None of that, or any of the above in this thread, shows that the Germans got much beyond basic research on things nuclear. There is no physical evidence to confirm that they did. And, it's the stuff of conspiracy theories and theorists to suggest it all somehow just disappeared or was camouflaged by the victors.

For instance, TigerB mentions Beryllium. His post makes a claim it had little or no use outside things nuclear. Yet, it was widely used in beryllium-copper alloys for things like non-sparking tools, parachute harness metal fittings, aircraft brakes, among other uses. It wasn't some "We've got to get this for our nuclear program!" thing. It was making use of captured raw materials for the same things that their own stocks were being used for.

That's one example.

What conspiracy theorists do is look for and find the one or two facts, examples, whatever that don't point toward the conventional answer / wisdom on something and say these are the only true facts while ignoring the overwhelming preponderance of evidence that points elsewhere.

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by wm » 30 Sep 2017 20:09

Tiger B wrote:No. Because Alpha deposits it's energy over short emission distances, it tends to highly energize subjected materials and tissues. Stay in one place with high alpha and you will damage whatever is exposed. Depending on how much you dose the carrier material, the fact that alpha causes secondary resonance period release of gamma or neutron ionizing radiation means that an entire area (roadway) can be contaminated and where this road occurs at a natural choke (beachhead exits) you can seriously injure troops trying to pass through it.
And those deadly alpha emitters are?
Because this is what The United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission has to say about Polonium-210 (one of the best of them): cannot penetrate paper or skin, so external exposure does not pose a health risk.

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by T. A. Gardner » 30 Sep 2017 20:14

Tiger B wrote: Radiologics trump Anthrax because they are less likely to get up on their hind legs and go walkabout and harder to defend against in terms of suits and filters. Any chemical toxin can be defeated by going sealed suit (rubberized cloth) and closed loop air. Moreover, even the most persistent chemical agent rapidly loses potency as UV, wind and water disperse and thin it's concentration. Radiologics don't and thus form superior ADEN barriers.

Radiation requires sealed vehicle protection to operate in a contaminated area effectively and the contamination is a lot harder to be rid of especially in builtups. Radiologics scattered by an Arado 234 over the invasion beaches (you could use a fairly large, internal, sprayer based on a pneumatic pump, maintaining speed by carrying and dropping fuel tanks instead of bombs) become a more or less permanent barrier (6-8 weeks) and also have the nasty benefit of cutting specific access to support elements.
You obviously know little about different types of radiation. Alpha and beta emitters are only dangerous to humans if ingested. You have to eat or breathe them in. Skin is sufficient to protect the human body from Alpha radiation (a ionized Helium atom... eg., one with no electrons). It has next to no penetration so the only way it's dangerous is if you ingest it.
Beta (a free electron) can be protected from by a simple dust mask and full coverage clothing.

Also, both take years, decades, to work. In the 1940's radiation was not well understood and it's likely the authorities would simply tell people to wear a dust mask and sweep off the dirt on their clothes.

Image

The US Army in Smoky II in 1954 marched a 1000 man battalion across ground zero a half hour after the bomb went off. Those guys didn't drop dead the next day.

Image

It took radium watch / clock workers painting on radium (an alpha and beta emitter) years to be effected by their exposure to it daily, all day, where they were ingesting small amounts nearly continuously.

Image

But, you want us to believe that scattering a random dusting of nuclear material over a wide area would have had any real effect on the population? You are dreaming!

Then there's this:
Given the Germans could also produce Beryllium by the short ton and disintegration of Beryllium doesn't occur until 1.6MEV, if these alternative partice separators could charge to that level, then ANYTHING they were exposed to could also become a radio emitter. This time of neutrons and gamma.
The only way something can become radioactive is it is exposed to a neutron source. There are two extremely rare Beryllium isotopes that are neutron emitters, 12Be and 15Be. Neither is naturally occurring. Both have half lives on the order of zepto-seconds (eg., 10^-21 seconds). That means they barely exist at all and the only way they can even form is within a nuclear reaction.
The rest of the unstable Beryllium isotopes are alpha and beta emitters. They cannot cause something to become radioactive.
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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by Michael Kenny » 30 Sep 2017 20:33

Tiger B wrote: Choke any one of these and pressure goes off the Wehrmacht units which were already doing fairly well for themselves, in front of Caen and in the Bocage.
Clearly you have not read the German weekly reports for Normandy. This book (for example) would be a good start.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/James-Wood-Arm ... B0076TU418

The considered views of the German Commanders contrast starkly with the wildly inaccurate Uber-soldier euphoria of the latter day fan club.

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by T. A. Gardner » 01 Oct 2017 00:33

Now we're into fantasy...

Image

Maybe this will help with future posts

http://www.scifiideas.com/technobabble-generator/

:roll:

On this:
An Arado 234 force, available from a month or so after the invasion and using drop tanks at all three external hardpoint positions, would cripple the beachhead progression of logistics and reinforcement transfer, inland. And thus would make it impossible to control the approaches to large objectives like Caen.
Historically, the first Ar 234 unit was Sonderkommando Götz formed in September 1944 at Rheine with four (4) Ar 234B-1. These aircraft were used for reconnaissance, not bombing.
The Ar 234 V5 and V7 were used for reconnaissance flights in July 1944 from Juvincourt in France, but there was endless difficulty with their landing on skids, as they had no proper landing gear.

In fact, the Ar 234 proved pretty marginal as a bomber, being too small for the role and when used as such was vulnerable to Allied fighters as the weight and drag of the bombs slowed it to a point where it could be intercepted. It had no capacity to bomb accurately at night, and only a marginal one by day.

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by williamjpellas » 01 Oct 2017 01:00

T. A. Gardner wrote:
williamjpellas wrote:Irving may be a Nazi sympathizer but he is also the only major historian I know of who was able to personally interview all, or nearly all, of the then-surviving members of the wartime German nuclear science establishment. He appears to have stumbled across a few wisps of information about the HWA - Schumann - Trinks - Diebner - Gerlach project, but didn't recognize them as being part of an effort that was separate from what was going on at the KWI. But the point here is that Irving is not to be dismissed because of his political views. His book The Virus House rightly remains one of the major works on WWII German nuclear weapons R&D.
Yes, Irving had his moments of useful historical contribution. But, he's really more of a talented amateur historian. His dive into Holocaust denial and often going off on tangents of the Nazi fanboi sort don't help his credibility, and I for one would want other verification if it's available.

None of that, or any of the above in this thread, shows that the Germans got much beyond basic research on things nuclear. There is no physical evidence to confirm that they did. And, it's the stuff of conspiracy theories and theorists to suggest it all somehow just disappeared or was camouflaged by the victors.

For instance, TigerB mentions Beryllium. His post makes a claim it had little or no use outside things nuclear. Yet, it was widely used in beryllium-copper alloys for things like non-sparking tools, parachute harness metal fittings, aircraft brakes, among other uses. It wasn't some "We've got to get this for our nuclear program!" thing. It was making use of captured raw materials for the same things that their own stocks were being used for.

That's one example.

What conspiracy theorists do is look for and find the one or two facts, examples, whatever that don't point toward the conventional answer / wisdom on something and say these are the only true facts while ignoring the overwhelming preponderance of evidence that points elsewhere.

Tigerb was speaking in a particular context when he mentioned beryllium. The materials he listed were in fact part of a request sent from Germany's wartime ally, Japan, and all were specifically intended for use in Japan's own nuclear weapons projects, of which there were at least four (4). These were spread out between the Army and Navy, or, in one case, both of them. Have you done any reading about the Japanese projects? And, have you read or listened to Hydrick?
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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by williamjpellas » 01 Oct 2017 02:28

So why would Bohr run off like a little girl and leave Heisenberg sitting alone like a suitor with a ring on the veritable park bench? Could it be that this is NOT what happened? That the 'little box with lines radiating from it' was NOT what Bohr kept on him from that moment until he could self evacuate to Sweden and then onto America to show his fellow physicists?

Let's consider an alternative: Heisenberg is a traitor to the German cause. They are sitting on a park bench in a private, walled, garden because Bohr's home is likely bugged. The conversation has NOTHING to do with 'reactors and control rods' but is rather related to a GAS DIFFUSION PLANT which is the earliest form of radio isotope separation, pioneered by Jewish German Gustav Hertz.

>
On 27 April 1945, Thiessen arrived at von Ardenne's institute in an armored vehicle with a major of the Soviet Army, who was also a leading Soviet chemist.[14] All four of the pact members were taken to the Soviet Union. Hertz was made head of Institute G, in Agudseri (Agudzery), about 10 km southeast of Sukhumi and a suburb of Gul’rips (Gulrip'shi).[14][15] Topics assigned to Gustav Hertz's Institute G included: (1) Separation of isotopes by diffusion in a flow of inert gases, for which Gustav Hertz was the leader, (2) Development of a condensation pump, for which Justus Mühlenpfordt was the leader, (3) Design and build a mass spectrometer for determining the isotopic composition of uranium, for which Werner Schütze was the leader, (4) Development of frameless (ceramic) diffusion partitions for filters, for which Reinhold Reichmann was the leader, and (5) Development of a theory of stability and control of a diffusion cascade, for which Heinz Barwich was the leader;[14][16]
>

Wiki.


I can buy the notion of the buna werke being a clandestine separation - enrichment plant but I am still in the process of getting down into the weeds and checking sources and so on. Again, Carter Hydrick is the best place to start. Just curious if you are citing Pavel Oleynikov here, specifically his paper, "German Scientists in the Soviet Atomic Program"? Or possibly other writing by him?

https://www.nonproliferation.org/wp-con ... 2pavel.pdf

Now, Hertz was descended from Jews. So he didn't get the kind of funding that the KWI and 'Uranium Club' did. But his IS the simplest method and yet it is also the SOLE method for which we don't see assigned university/professors. Bagge and Klusius did Thermal Diffusion. Harteck did Centrifuge. Weitzsacker (from memory) was on the Sluice. And Von Ardenne covered both electromagnetic separation (his system's capture tank was 20% more efficient than the Calutron) and probably the 'photo chemical method'. But no mention of a serious gas diffusion effort.


This summary is accurate, and is particularly interesting because other than what von Ardenne was doing (which was considerable) it is concerned entirely with what was going on at the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute under the supposed "passive resistance leader" Heisenberg. I can buy the notion that Heisenberg was personally ambivalent about building the bomb for the Nazis and that he probably didn't work as diligently on the problem as he otherwise might have---but he certainly did not "sabotage the Nazi nuclear effort" by lying to Hitler about how difficult it would be. Thomas Powers' otherwise excellent book Heisenberg's War is probably the most prominent one advocating for that idea, but it is simply not true, as Karlsch has demonstrated with his account of the Harnack Haus conference in 1942 in which Heisenberg sketched out three separate routes to an atomic or nuclear bomb. The Germans certainly explored all of these and others as well.

And you know, the funny thing about the SS is, they may have executed Jews by the trainful in The East but they were pragmatic about a lot of things related to 'Juden Physik' that would have been pshawed in the regular German university system as Reich's Research Council, headed by Heisenberg and his cronies.

So where is the Gas Diffusion Werke? The very fact that there isn't one, publically, is highly suggestive that there was.

And the easy contender is Buna 102 at Monawitz which never produced a pound of synthetic rubber and which was the focus of considerable interest at the Industrialist Trials in Nuremberg and was conveniently close to both Ohrdruf and the Joachimsthal mine complex.



Ohrdurf is where Karlsch, by way of top secret Soviet spy documents seen only by Stalin and three others, claims the HWA - Diebner - Gerlach project tested two bombs in some form or configuration in March, 1945. As you mention elsewhere, the East Germans took this seriously enough to conduct their own investigation in the 1960s. There were at least two (2) eyewitnesses described in East German records.

The "photo chemical method" is called "photo fission" on the Farm Hall tapes, or at least, that is how the English translation reads in Jeremy Bernstein's book, Hitler's Uranium Club. Bernstein, please note, obviously has no idea what Diebner and Gerlach are talking about. None. Was this another method of isotope separation - enrichment that is unknown today? Diebner and Gerlach were two of the top scientists in the HWA ("heereswaffenamt") German Army Weapons Burean project described by Karlsch and also by Mark Walker in the Physics World website article, "New Light on Hitler's Bomb". Gerlach's diary is held in US archives and is still classified to this day.

So.

What if.

Heisenberg's 'box with arrows' was NOT a reactor and the reason that Bohr got himself out of country and over to the Allies RIGHT NOW after his little conversation with his student was that Heisenberg, 'The White Jew', had somehow learned of this off the books SS effort and shown him a gas diffusion process rendering, with input:output efficiency levels, similar to 'The Monster' which South Africa built for Qaddafi.

Now the arrows can have a number representing a given percentage Hex going in one side and a given concentration of U235 coming out the other. Rinse Repeat, X-many months to critical mass quantities of weaponized material.

Though it is a prime producer at industrial scales, Gas Diffusion is one continuous plumbing disaster waiting to happen with the caustic, radioactive, explosive UF6 running through it. We had ENORMOUS problems getting the molecular filter sieves correct at Oak Ridge so that they would capture but not clog and hold together long enough to make a few runs to get enough enriched gas to really begin to cluster up atoms. But the Germans were master molecular chemists. IG Farben was the pillaged essence of all the big American bigchem/bigpharma companies today. And with alloys like Bondur, they could have gotten ahead.

Way Ahead.



Certainly possible, but I can't speak to this in detail until I can do more research. FWIW, I think your scenario is plausible to this point and I think you are digging in some of the right places. I am not familiar with "The Monster" built by the South African project and have never seen that term in any of the sources I have read about it. Can you provide a source and otherwise elaborate?

If that piece of paper says: "They are getting 10% per run and can make a bomb in a year." Bohr is going to pat his student on the head and call MI6 to come make a pickup because that piece of paper is going to tell the U.S. Manhattan District that they need to seriously get into the game. Look at the funding dates for the big expansions at Oak Ridge vs. Buna 102 and ask yourself: is the big brouhaha between Bohr and Heisenberg really what it seems?

How far ahead were they? We still can't account for over half the 3,000 tons of Uranium taken from Belgium. And the Germans had a process, which Harteck saw, that produced a ton of metallic uranium PER DAY. Thus the fantasy that there was a 'Uranium Shortage' in German during the wartime years is an _utter farce_.



I agree, it is a farce. There was no uranium shortage in Germany whatsoever. According to the late Col. John Lansdale, many hundreds of tons of uranium ore were captured by Alsos raids late in the war. Lansdale himself participated in some of these. Significant amounts of uranium oxide also fell into American hands and made its way to the separation - enrichment plant at Oak Ridge, TN. There were also a number of submarine and possible also air cargo missions going from Germany to Japan that were carrying uranium in some form.

https://www.quora.com/Could-there-be-an ... ?srid=CPJw


Just last year, we finally found and presumably raised (Glomar) the last two U-Boat war graves which 'private interests' (CIA) had sponsored the search for, for over 70 years. Those U-Boats were among 19 which were making routine runs between Jakarta and Germany, of which 11 were sunk, in 1944 alone. U-864 is going to be entombed in concrete, despite the certainty that it will crush the hull and release any mercury in it's glass philes which was the justification for it's encapsulation to begin with. Why? Because they are terrified that the world will someday discover that the Germans and Japanese were world nuclear leaders, passing around highly refined, weapons grade, U233 or even transmutated (Bell = Tokomak) Pu240. And Lucy will have a lot of splainin' to do. U-534, which was raised, was left to sit in the open for five years, rusting away, before being gutted and turned into a museum piece. Why? Cooling off period for a nuclear cargo removed from it's belly?


The Norwegian KYSTVERKET (Norwegian Coastal Administration) claims there is no radioactivity coming from the wreck of the U-864. Which is not a guarantee that they are telling the truth. Here is their official document about the sunken German submarine:

https://web.archive.org/web/20090306045 ... 818147.pdf

By "Glomar" I think you mean the Glomar Explorer---Howard Hughes' old ship? I would be surprised if it continued to be used to fish sunken submarines out of the water after its first mission, to bring up the Soviet boat K-129, was discovered by the press. In any case the Explorer was scrapped in 2015. Do you have any links that document additional salvage operations by the Explorer? Or are you saying that such salvage continued but was done via other means?

Oppenheimer: "The bombs were of German provenance."
Teller: "The Germans did much of the ground work for the fusion weapons. The best physicists stayed in Germany."
Radecs: "The bombs exploded over Japan were not of U.S. origin. The first U.S. designed bombs were not detonated until 1947 over Enivetok."

The Germans had the bomb. The Germans didn't use the bomb, even to defend their own territory, because Hitler didn't want a weapon which would end life for centuries across the planet. The U.S. faced the utter exposure of the massive fraud of a 3 billion dollar weapons program whose Jewish Genius had produced Zip Squat Denadda with a U.S. Senator threatening to expose the truth via independent review. And so, to cover their own behinds, the U.S. military dropped weapons of mass destruction, in direct violation of the Hague Convention and indeed ANY moral code, on a helpless nation's civilian targets. For no better reason than to cover up their own ineptitude with the displayed result of a mazcat of over 200,000 dead.

The were not U.S. Bombs. Little Boy in particular doesn't even look American. And the 60kg/132lbs of fuel in it was more than we should have had in the ENTIRE U.S. stockpile, even if they had not been using U235 to hot-cycle the breeder at Hanford.

We have been lied to for _decades_.



I think it is possible, based on what I have read to this point, that the Germans had "A" bomb---that is, some kind of nuclear weapon in some form---but not "THE" bomb. Not in the same sense as what came out of the Manhattan Project (and to a much lesser extent, the British Tube Alloys effort before it was folded into Manhattan). Nor, probably, in the same sense as what Japan was working on, at least initially. The possibility remains that Japan shifted gears late in the war from its original, U-235 bomb concept to something else, ie, whatever the Germans were doing and might have transferred to them. I have not reached a firm conclusion one way or the other on these matters to this point in time.

I do not believe that Little Boy was a German bomb. Oppenheimer - Alvarez weapons physics was more than equal to the task of building a crude but workable and fairly powerful first generation, gun-type, atomic fission weapon. And although I have seen claims of US capture of some kind of German weapon, I have yet to see documentation that supports, much less proves, this claim.
Last edited by williamjpellas on 02 Oct 2017 01:44, edited 3 times in total.

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