First atomic bomb was German !?!

Discussions on the equipment used by the Axis forces, apart from the things covered in the other sections. Hosted by Juha Tompuri
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T. A. Gardner
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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by T. A. Gardner » 01 Oct 2017 02:49

The Japanese program was much like the German one... very tentative. The Japanese could request all sorts of stuff for various purposes. At least they paid attention. The Germans ignored that Japan had a working cavity magnetron before Britain and that they were experimenting with millimeter wave radar in 1940 while the German "experts" didn't think it was practical to make one.

The point I'm making with TigerB's list is that it doesn't mean the Allies suddenly wanted this stuff for their nuclear weapons program, any more than they did German uranium. These were fortuitous fruits of victory for them, not something they planned or needed to get results which is what's implied in that lengthy screed.

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by williamjpellas » 01 Oct 2017 02:52

Sorry, but you're wrong about the Japanese program. There was nothing "tentative" about it whatsoever. There is a lengthy and very detailed thread here on AHF about what the Japanese were doing and of course there was some connection between the two Axis powers in terms of their nuclear weapons R&D. Exactly what form that connection took is uncertain and a matter of considerable debate.

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by Tiger B » 01 Oct 2017 20:01

I agree that there was nothing tentative about the German effort because there was nothing halfbaked about the Allied counter intelligence attempts to break into it.

ALSOS was operating, deep in Germany, from before the end of hostilities. Possibly as early as October 1944, with small ground teams breaking out of the Aachen penetration. Dressed as internal security forces, moving across Germany to collect intel on what was clearly no longer a 'broadcast' system of radio-telegraphy updates on the German nuclear program.

Looking to shanghai or kill key POIs if they could not reach the German program R&D locations, further East. Giving just cause to why the 'official' KWI program was not defunded. It was a blind.

The ALSOS teams grabbed 1,000 tons of Metallicized Uranium, weeks before the surrender. Possibly right out from under the Russian's noses at Oranienberg, just north of Berlin.

Supporting this effort, was an entire division of Ultra (I forget the code name) which was dedicated specifically to nuclear exploits. This unit was all-black and saw exploits which the rest of the intelligence teams filtering the output of the decrypt section never did.

And of course the British had had Griffin (Paul Rosebaud) since the beginning. Which should tell you that 'splitting the atom' was hardly a surprise, to any one. With stockpiles of Uranium, far beyond that needed for pottery glazes, in existence from before the war and key espionage operatives providing details of what was going on, Day 1.

Hence, there was no 'random luck' involved in what ALSOS did. Their missions were highly specific and entirely targeted in their objectives. Lansdale, Goudsmitt and Furman were all top level spooks equivalent to Cherwell and his 'T-Force', which overran the Hamburg zirconium facility and the Espelkamp Centrifuge cascade.

Furman is particularly crucial (and interesting) because it was HE AND HE ALONE who had defacto command of the Enola Gay atomic mission because he was the one who flew out the warhead physics package to Tinian. And he is also the bridge between ALSOS and the Japanese equivalent, post war.

If we knew someting about the Nuclear Axis, he was Our Man Flynn who carried that awareness forward, into theater, to find and exploit it. I believe an RB-29 was shot down, supporting this exploit, north into Korea, by the Russians, over the mountains of Konan (the official mission was dropping care packages to POWs).

Which means that the Russians at this point ALSO KNEW what was going on (depending on how the air flights were routed, may have done, for a long time) and so, if the American archives hide/burn/shred their documentation, we have a possible alternative source for the truth.

That said, there is an ASTONISHING lack of big picture insights going on here.

I think, we came into some serious knowledge near the end of the war as to what was actually happening in the SS black atomics program. And panicked.

Because bing-bam-BOOM!:

1. Dresden and it's rail yards are obliterated for no real reason, day and night, including refugee columns strafed along the roads leading away from the city. February 13-15, 1945.
2. Operation Clarion expands this point attack to cut rail lines across Germany. February 22-23, 1945.
3. Order 696 sees Pilsen flattened. April 24, 1945.
4. Patton, as part of the preexisting 'Reich Redoubt' mission, instead of heading for Berlin, uses the excuse of 'rescuing' his POW son in law to stage forward his top brigade combat team for a hail mary run across Southern Germany, going 150km past the agreed upon lines of demarcation at the Elbe and up into Pilsen. May 6, 1945.
5. The Germans fight like demons to hold onto Thuringia and form festungs around the Prague/Rusin airfield as well as south, at Melk/Object Quarz in Austria, the latter being among the last forces to surrender, on May 9, 1945
6. We race the Russians into Austria and fight them, twice. For the atomic centers (Melk) and possibly stored munitions there.

This matches well to an extreme interdiction effort designed to contain the spread of nuclear weapons from holding depots to assembly or frontline units for use. And to the German desire to fight to retain those depot or assembly areas as critical capabilities needed to build more as part of Hitler's 'wave' system of internal defensive fortification of cities.

At the same time, people ignore the simplest of questions inherent to the most exotic of assertions. "Well, if you're going to do it...how?" We have persistent rumours of Japanese 'exchange' scientists operating in the Reich throughout the war. We have rumors of a 'Truck', making transpolar flight/s, late war. We have assertions of multiple prior runs from Ju-90, FW-200 or Bv-222, into Manchuria.

How do you make this happen, given the ranges of the airframes available at the time and what do you need to do it? Especially since the commander of the only unit with a KNOWN longrange aviation capacity, operating under SS auspices out of that same (giant) Czech aerospace modification center at Rusin, _insists_ that his unit never went to Manchuria at all. "And I commanded all the long range trained crews so I would have known."

The keys are here-

http://codenames.info/operation/schatzgraber/

https://uboat.net/boats/u362.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junkers_Jumo_205

If you believe the coverstory, the Germans had a 'weather station' operating way up north in the Franz Joseph Land archipelago-

https://ichef-1.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cps ... b04ed1.jpg

Close to Nagurskoye. Apparently both Russians and Germans had met stations there, knew the other was also present and 'occasionally waved at each other'.

((Scientists... I tell'ya. If we didn't have them, we wouldn't have high technology wars. If we were all scientists, we wouldn't have wars at all...))

Until the day someone killed a polar bear, someone else decided to go for some Steak Tartar instead of K-Rations and in responding to the resulting outbreak of Trichinosis, the doctor's plane, an FW-200, was damaged upon landing, so that a BV-222 had to fly allllll the way up from the Bay of Biscay to bring a spare tire for the Focke Wulf and evacuate everyone out from the only remaining German arctic weather station. This, in July 1944, with Overlord in full swing.

Why is this important? Because the Bv-222 had a significant cargo capacity. And it's big brother, the Bv-238, an even larger one. And like the Ju-390, there is a large part of the history of the Bv-238 where we honestly don't know where it went, after completing flight trials and before being sunk on an Austrian lake 'when someone forgot to cut fresh branches' for the camouflage.

Most importantly, the Bv-222/238 used DIESEL ENGINES. And now you have a reason for a valuable U-Boat to be in the Eastern Kara sea, where the only thing to stalk is fishing boats, in September 1944. Just before the ice comes in. A U-boat which was sunk. Compared to perhaps half a dozen others in the summer 1944 which likely were not.

Now you have a reason for KG-200 not to know about flights to Manchuria. Because this is a Kriegsmarine operation, bringing freight, not people.

Now you have a reason to be sending a team to evacuate personnel sick from 'acute food poisoning' when every prior mission from establishment in 1943 onwards had been either aboard a U-Boat or via _airdrop_ from the Kondor force. The FW-200 brings diesel, conveniently breaks and requires the Wiking to come save it.

U-362 has more fuel and another sub, possibly Japanese, more again. Enough for a flying boat to puddle jump across the empty wastes of the Arctic, from point to point as a courier service for atomic systems (Centrifuge, Gas Diffusion cascade or Glocke/Tokomak) and personnel.

Just like the Empire flying boat service had done, before the war.

And Hans Kammler, a man who was terrified of flying and whose responsibilities as plenipotentiary for special weapons should have kept him FAR from any combat front, ventures into Czechoslovakia at the height of the fighting for the capital, where he sends a signal to a desperate Himmler: "Sorry ol' man, you're gonna have to find your own way out, 'The Truck' is taken."

Where 'Truck' is short for the Ju-390V2. The only remaining German aircraft that had the range to make a direct trip to Japan. Some 9,093km from Prague to Tokyo, half as far if you do a polar trip. An aircraft which has paperwork showing numerous flight test sorties out of the German Edwards equivalent (Rechlin/Lars) but is 'officially' stated as never having been built, according to Junkers records (multiple components were, we have photos).

Kammler is sending the Japanese home. The question is: what is he sending with them?

It's April/May 1945. The Japanese are three months out from incineration. We're beyond any redemption via a homegrown pilot isotope separation program. If the Japanese don't have an active fuel separation, smelting and warhead fabrication process in place, it's too late to start now with '560 kilograms of Uranium Oxide'.

There is only one possible source for such capability they could turn to, if they have been gifted* such an industrialiation process and at least 1,000 tons of Uranium ore, early in 1944 and it came from Germany to a commercial industrial center owned by Japans richest man, which is operative, high in the mountains north of Konan (ironically, near enough to Chosin that retreating U.S. Marines fleeing the Chinese attack there _run across it_, in 1950).

With this, they may yet have time to make Genzi Bakudan happen.

Otherwise... no go.

And now you also know WHY it was done. What the German motive is for providing such generous help to the Japanese, throughout 1944. Because Hitler or one of his SS black program people, (Kammler or Gotlub), had seen the writing on the wall with Frantic Joe: someone or something was inside the loop of their last remaining hope for victory.

Someone or something was willing to chase the German nuclear project, clear across the Reich. Making even the Czech Republic and Poland unsafe. Someone is targeting those strikes.

And the only way to get out from under the Traitor Network espionage of the German Resistance would be to send the program out of country (July 20th would have made this all the more 'obvious' as a paranoid alternative to simple SIGINT of the radio telegraphy system, though I believe that the SS Nuclear effort was in fact hand-couried, SAR reading listed.).

You can't win the whack a mole game where you are losing an industrial center per raid. So you move your hole beyond the hawk's reach.

Just as the CIA later did with the AQ Khan network moving into Switzerland, South Africa, Libya and Malaysia, outside official Pakistani control of it's nominal figurehead, then alredy under house arrest. A grand dispersal operation which was BASED ON the German effort.

Hoping to fight for time until Japanese weapons or weapons grade uranium could be brought back in, using an established system of puddle jumping across the Arctic (measure this against Japanese fears of a shoot down of a routine courier system over Russian territory, into Manchuria, IF the payloads are atomic materials or personnel related...).

You now have a model for how it was done. And why. You can reject or adjust that model, based on known contradiction as evidence. But you cannot have suspicions in a vacuum, without a mechanization process.

William, I just read your missive, thanks for the LINKS. My library is very small. The books I picked up the term 'Monster' from were, I believe _The Nuclear Jihadist_ and/or _Fallout_ by Frantz and Collins. Somewhere on Youtube, there is also a video which refers to it. Apparently it was a warehouse sized exercise in HVAC type engineering, closed-loop pressurized to run UF6, it's size and complexity leading to the name.

When we 'discovered' it in ZA; we moved on Qaddafi and a CIA man basically walked into his office and said: "I am the lifeguard, you are the drowning man. You stop, right now, what you're doing under the mountain or we will use earth penetrating nukes to do so." Qaddafi negotiated, with his backup plan which was a centrifuge system and his knowledge of how the AQ network ran as leverage, getting promises in trade that his sons would inherit rule over his country and he would be allowed to gracefully retire.

The first thing the CIA guy did when he was shown the warehouse where the nukes were kept was to put his hand on the centrifuge rotors, because the skin oils would ruin them forever as balanced high speed mechanisms.

Qaddafi would be dead within ten years, hunted down by Predator UAVs and an SOF led mercenary force of 'Libyan Dissidents' that raped, burned and shot him as part of a Mediterranean basin-wide coup effort to destabilize Arab Nationalism.

Never let the CIA into your swimming pool.



*This is why Germany had a Big Bomb program that was at least as advanced as the Japanese equivalent. You don't make charitable donations which leave you with less capability than your ally. And the Germans had _Tons_ of material to spare. Including components which were only applicable to a reactor capability. A reactor that was not in the Greater Reich.

They wanted to start taking delivery of Japanese HEU and packaging it into city killer munitions. When they ran out of time or access, they tried another option. The isomer weapon.

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by David Thompson » 01 Oct 2017 22:55

A rambling post from Tiger B, containing his political commentary on the current German government and also some slighting remarks about other participants in the discussion, was removed pursuant to forum rules.

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by williamjpellas » 02 Oct 2017 02:58

Dunserving wrote:
http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/Nwfaq/Nfaq0.html


An interesting and well-known source which descries in detail the first atomic bombs. Just one problem though - no mention at all of them being German..........

As for this nonsense about matchbox size - the small diameter of a plutonium core is going to be of the order of 9cm. That's three of the largest matchboxes sold in the UK stacked in a pile.

There remains a complete lack of evidence in the form of primary sources for any workable atomic bombs being made, let alone tested, anywhere in Europe during WW2.[/quote]

No. There is a BBC video which details the Ohdruf explosion site, including the crater where the bomb exploded and the warped and dead trees around it. And that same video also includes a beach area on Rugen where pieces of Trinitite were recovered. This documentary also includes interviews with Clare Werner, Luigi Romersa and one of the men who worked with Stettin or Dallenbach, covering the Austrian effort which is where the real theoretical work and subscale component testing was done. This last individual describes exactly how the bomb was made to function.


If you have a link to that video, I definitely want to see it ASAP.

I had never before heard a claim that trinitite had been recovered from the area of the alleged 1944 test detonation at Rugen Island. Agreed that the majority of the WWII German nuclear weapon R&D appears to have been done to the east and south of Berlin, in Austria and in what is today the Czech Republic. It could be that one of the reasons the idea that the Nazis had functioning nuclear weapons is discounted in the West is that so much of their nuclear R&D infrastructure fell behind the Iron Curtain at the close of the war. For example and if I'm not mistaken, one of the primary sites associated with the so-called "Nazi Bell" was captured by the Soviets, etc.



You put layered paraffin/graphite wax between stages of a pusher type system and build yield by tickling the tail of the dragon using a small nuclear initiator or 'sparkplug' to generate the XRays which compress LD6 until the fusion fuel is sufficiently energetic to simulate the neutron flux levels of a genuine nuke. The secondary at the end of the pusher is protected from dissemblage by Zirconium or Beryllium inhibitors which keep the flux levels building until there is enough activity to stimulate even U238.

The Germans were doing this because they were short of time and materials as the Reich collapsed and they needed battlefield weapons to support the likes of Steiner's attack into the Soviet Flank outside Berlin. The only question is whether they were using a conventional, transuranic, element or something more akin to an isomer/isoton which fits more closely with the 'cherry liquid' Xerum 525 and restrictive volumes mentioned in the Ohrdruf tests.
.3


The detonation method you describe here is very similar to (though not exactly the same as) what Simon Gunson says on his "Nazi A-Bomb" website. He describes the neutron flux as a "plasma pinch". Gunson's work is found here: https://sites.google.com/site/naziabomb/home
I corresponded once with an American nuclear weapons technician and asked him about this. He claims that no nuclear weapon that attempted to utilize this method has ever been successfully detonated. However, the scientist J. G. Linhart believes that it is a viable method. In any case it sounds to me like some variant of boosted fission.

Can you describe in detail how the "isomer/isoton" bomb fuel would work? I have never previously heard the term "isomer/isoton" associated with Xerum 525, though I have seen sources that connect it to the purported product of the "Nazi Bell". You are the second writer I have seen who believes that the Bell was a kind of tokomak used to create fissile material for some kind of WWII German nuclear weapons project. I presume this would have been under the auspices of the SS and General Kammler, and that von Ardenne's laboratory was probably part of it as well. Do you have any documentation proving that the Bell was a kind of fissile material breeder technology, and do you have anything that gives the formula and the method of manufacture of Xerum 525? Maybe Igor Witkowski? Gunson has also written about the Bell and claims that it was a kind of "ADS" (Accelerator Driven System) technology. And what do you mean by "restrictive volumes mentioned in the Ohrdurf tests"? Mentioned by whom, and in what context?


Von Ardenne is the man with the plan here because he had invented the Von Ardenne Device, the worlds best source of tailored high capacitance discharge voltage and that was both what 'spun up' the Uranium or Thorium isotopes in a German Tokomak to generate a very small trigger as a likely replacement for the traditional pit in the weapon itself. An isomer of Plutonium or Uranium which goes from metastable to base charge state (using another VAD instead of explosives) flashes an INCREDIBLE amount of gamma/X-ray and the heat from that easily replicates the pressure deltas of the best implosion systems in existence.


By "spun up" are you referring to "spin polarisation of atoms"? This would point to Walter Gerlach in addition to von Ardenne, right? What exactly is the Von Ardenne Device? The Bell? Re: "...an isomer of Plutonium or Uranium which goes from metastable to base charge state (using another VAD instead of explosives) flashes an INCREDIBLE amount of gamma/X-ray and the heat from that easily replicates the pressure deltas of the best implosion systems", I think you are describing another method of triggering an atomic or thermonuclear or perhaps even pure fusion explosion besides the ones known to have come out of WWII? (Yes, I know that most sources state that a pure fusion explosion has never been achieved).


Pressure = Fusion in Deuterium and Tritium, rapidly building your neutron count.

Since his lab outside Lichterfelde (sp.), near Berlin, was also doing the experimental separation methods for LIthium from salt brine and granite to make the Lithium Deuteride at the end of the war (what actually netted him his life and a Stalin prize, after the Russians took him); he was probably the one, through Ohnesorge's Reichs Post Ministry (better atomics by licking Hitler's ***) who put the two together. Or at least who provided the engineering for the 'photo chemical method' (as Die Glocke) which Weitzsacker mentioned ONE TIME at Farm Hall, only to have his colleagues take turns jumping down his throat to shut him up.



It is my understanding that Diebner and Gerlach are the ones who mentioned "photo fission", not von Weizsacker, though it has been many years since I read Hitler's Uranium Club and looked closely at the Farm Hall transcripts. Von Weiszacker spent much of his time during the war years working with a captured French cyclotron, after which he filed what was essentially a patent claim for a type of plutonium bomb.

Otherwise, yes, according to von Ardenne's German Wikipedia page, he was in fact working to isolate usable quantities of Lithium for use in nuclear weapons. He did this by building a "new magnetic isotope separator for high mass transport, a laboratory model that was used in early 1945 to carry out initial attempts to separate lithium isotopes. The prototype was possibly built in 1943 at an air force base in Bad Saarow". The HWA project under Schumann, Trinks, Diebner and Gerlach produced a design that utilized Li-6D along with U-233 in the bomb core. Karlsch alleges that this is what was tested at Ohrdurf. You seem to allude to something different below, in the bit about bombs with sub-kiloton yields.

Von Ardenne's German Wikipedia page: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manfred_von_Ardenne



The Germans got a yield. All the top U.S. scientists, including Oppenheimer and Teller, said so. 'The (Hiroshima/Nagasaki) Bombs were of German provenance.' etc. The Russians said so. By inference, Ivy Mike as the 'The worlds first exploding meat packing plant' was a joke to them because they had mastered non-cryo fusion weapons (or boosted which is protofusion) from Von Ardenne, years before.


Yes, but. The first Russian H-bomb, RDS-37, was not tested until 1955. Ivy MIke went off in 1952. While it is true that the Soviets mocked the American test by calling it "the world's first exploding meat packing plant", they had not yet mastered anything where H-bombs are concerned---unless you mean that they were already building one utilizing some approach from von Ardenne and had not yet detonated one (and Ivy Mike was NOT a practical, deliverable weapon). And/or unless there was some kind of earlier Russian H-bomb test that the US failed to detect, which would have been unlikely but not impossible in a pre-satellite era.

And to what are you referring when you say "The Germans got a yield"?


The U.S. likes to think we are this big, bad, bold bunch of innovators but as far as atomics go, we were waaaay behind. What the Germans were doing in 1944-45 was pushing the SOA into science fiction. And that is why the CIA has spent BILLIONS with a B to track down all of the German transport subs, moving between The Reich and Japan, even though, as solitary war graves, far off the convoy routes, they -should- have minimal value, historically or otherwise.


Do you have links to any sources describing the CIA salvage attempts of sunken U-boats and I-boats that were traveling between Germany and Japan? And, can you prove that the "mercury ballast" on board many if not all of these submarines was actually fissile material being transported in an amalgam with mercury? This is a claim I have seen Gunson make but have never seen any documentation. I ask here because you mention it elsewhere in this thread and it dovetails with your claims about CIA operations.

We do not need an Islamic dominated world with German engineered micro radiofuel or even 'clean' fusion weapons with .15-.75KT yields.


Can you be more specific about what you mean by "German engineered micro radiofuel"? And when you speak of "clean fusion weapons with .15 - .75 KT yields", do you mean, pure fusion bombs that were detonated without the use of a fission bomb primary? This is possible in theory though mainstream sources claim it has never been done. I'm not so sure about that, but am wondering if this is what you are talking about here. I would imagine that this would point in the direction of Dr. Karl Nowak and red mercury, and possibly also to "unbibium", a thought-to-exist "superdense element" reportedly isolated and discovered in recent years by a team of scientists that included some Israelis. Although most sneer down their noses at the idea of red mercury, it is claimed that this and, possibly, other superdense elements CAN serve as detonators for pure fusion bombs. From what I have read, these would not be particularly powerful as nuclear weapons go, but would be small and not particularly difficult to engineer. I don't know if they could be scaled up to larger yields or if the smaller explosions are as far as this method can go, etc.
Last edited by williamjpellas on 03 Oct 2017 02:38, edited 6 times in total.

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by witcher » 02 Oct 2017 04:38

Interesting discussion for sure. Ya maybe the hard data is really in Japan archives. They did surrender only after second bomb. Possibly Japan knew about allies obtaining little boy and it was more or less expected. Fatman put the surrender in action as they then knew it was not a 'one-and-only' from Europe.

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by Tiger B » 02 Oct 2017 13:44

William,

Please PM me with a working EML. I've looked all over, online, for the videos and cannot point you to a LINK. Be warned, you're getting very low quality stuff here but the personalities and locations are recognizable.

Below, you have the sum of the explanation I was given as to how Isomers work.

The man I spoke to said that public understandings of how physics really work are at least a century out of date. We are still working with an expanded Newtonian model with some Relativity thrown in, in the public setting. When, in fact, we have been messing around with time and gravity as field mechanics based on an 'incomplete' UFT model for at least 50 years. You have to wonder where that came from.

His belief is that the Germans were doing Zero Point stuff and that an Isomer is really an unstable 'bandpass gateway' that opens and closes in synch with resonant gamma pulses to that sub-quantum 'energy sea' condition.

When properly stimulated, you are generating 'traveling waves in the medium' which I have no idea how to properly explain beyond saying that they are singularities or micro black holes that are only possible in the subatomic scale due to Bosonic stress of the space time function around compressed atomic orbits (his explanation, not mine, he also said that gravity was a 'suspension, not an attraction').

According to him this is how ALL nuclear weapons really work, only the bomb's disintegration disrupts the wave phenomenon and the ionization column blocks 90% of the gamma which would otherwise flood out and do something similar to what a couple of the nuts predicted: flash burning a very much larger area of the planet than is now the case.

What powers the ionization column is also unique as the earth's strong magnetic field folds close the window. The coincidence of the Mach and blast shock and the resulting Rayleigh Taylor uplift, according to him, have less to do with fluid pressure fronts and more to do with Space Time folding that micro singularity back in upon itself. This is also why it is typically important to get an airburst for best destructive effects.

His opinion was that that if you really only had a few ounces of working radiofuel as a 'cherry red plasmoid', you could not set up a long enough (in time) standing wave in the disintegration process but if you used an isomer, the added polar charge state of the atoms at initiation would cause a peel-back (traveling wave) effect in which the bosonic 'slip' integer of the waves would give your booster fuel the gamma pulse length it needed to get nearly 100% of fusion yield. Every deuterium atom cooking off buys you two neutrons. And the neutrons kick the U238.

I am not an expert. You would need to go to the folks at Sandia GIF or similar to get them to sort the chaff from the wheat on this. From the number of letters after his name, this guy should know what he is talking about but given the way I mangled it, his understanding could easily be lost in my translation.

>
GLOW DISCHARGE DEVICE
Substrate pre-treatment with the VON ARDENNE glow discharge device is the ideal solution for the cleaning of temperature sensitive, non-conductive materials and surfaces. The substrate is cleaned by a low-pressure plasma discharge in a very gentle way as only mildly adhesive loose atoms and molecules are removed.

Therefore, glow discharge devices are especially suited for removing adsorbed water films on substrates like polymer films, glass and metal with isolating surface layers (e.g. lacquered surfaces or anodized aluminum layers).

A distinct advantage of glow discharge is that only little heat is generated. Therefore, this method protects the substrates and adds only a little heat input to the subsequent coating processes.
>

https://www.vonardenne.biz/en/products/ ... 570825ab97

I am also not an electrical engineer. My understanding is that a Tokomak can also be stated to be a Plasma Discharge Capacitor. Thus, a cascade of these Von Ardenne Devices on a building capacitance level, in combination with materials already compressed to very high inertial function via some kind of centrifuge, could push them to jump their charge states to a higher state level, as a radio isomer. Apparently, the type of discharge a VAD generates can be varied for cycles and type of emission.

Gerlach did solar fusion and transmutation along with gravity wave mechanics for this doctoral thesis in the 20s I believe. Yet by the time he was running the Reich's Research Council (it's been awhile so forgive me if I don't have my ducks in a row on the personalities) he was a hands off manager and he never went back to it, post war. My impression was that he was 'old school' with enough working competence to evaluate projects for merit but not enough modern theory to make them work. His appointment to head the department, after Essau being more politically neutral than useful.

This is not necessarily to say that he couldn't be brought in. You'll notice in the Farm Hall transcripts, at least the stuff I've read, that Gerlach and Diebner don't show up an awful lot. Even though Diebner was on-site and had been the one who was pushing _very hard_ to get Speer to take a second look at building a bomb when they got a mutiplication factor over 1 on the test pile. Presumably, if only through his team, which he hand picked, he would also have as good (or better) an idea on the function of the bomb as the theoreticians did of the mechanics of the separation process.

If Gerlach was in on the theory behind the design of Die Glocke with another guy...forget his name but he's in _ROTBS_...who was all about high voltage applications and got himself in serious trouble with the SS, then Diebner's HWA team, probably with Schumann and Trinks was the one who put the warhead and fusing package together with enough comprehension of the physics of fusion to make a fusing system work.

Probably with help from the Theoretical Physicist, Houtermanns.

That leaves the practical engineering of (Die Glocke's operating system as) the Centrifuge with Paul Harteck (or his grad student) and the specific design of the VAD step voltage cascade with Von Ardenne, who is double hatted with the Lithium experiments but has the intellectual pull to accomplish both as he was also doing a lot of electron microscopy and TV work before the war and so had a really good handle on the electrical engineering.

Anyway, it's the fuel that counts. If you can characterize it's response to EM shock to get the MS:G crash going (something which Gerlach would know, if anyone), you can design the device around generating that specific pulse thumbprint. Where they would get the idea for setting that up, I have no clue. But you have to remember that, at one time, Deutsche Physik really was the best in the world with a lot of ideas flowing back and forth in a really large university establishment where the best went to learn and teach.

Otto Hahn and Lisa Meitner discovered Isomers of Uranium, long before their work on fission, sometime around 1920-21. He could therefore be the source as he had a LOT of guilt, after the war, for something which really wasn't his to be hysterical about. And if they work as I explained, Isomers have the potential to be to nuclear power what gasoline is to a campfire.

The key is going to be packaging and power. The bombs are sized for fighters, not bombers, the Werewolf suitcase systems, even smaller.

None of what I have read about the Ohrdruf test/s on March 4 and 12 mention anything like a VAD replacement for the neutron source, they just mention applying the white paste.

Similarly, if you listen to Luigi Romersa's interview, there is also the moment when the phone in his observation bunker rings and "Look out, any time now, it will go off."

This is rather random sounding and frankly gives the impression of some kind of a chemical rather than a radio isomer reaction and as a time release process with imprecise cook off, it would not be applicable to a militarily useful bomb. But sourcing high energy batteries to power a step converter sufficiently to get a discharge from a VAD array, late war, also doesn't appear to be practical. In a bomb application under 15" and 2,400lbs (B-83), I'm not sure we could do it today, short of some kind of isotope battery or mini-RTG. Half the bomb would be battery.

Such is the problem with piecing this together. The theory is there. But the SOA in the engineering is still 1940s, even things like transistors were only just coming into prototype lab use and so you end up with thermionics and a whole bunch of other 'on the test stand, great!' kluge limiters.

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by MLW » 02 Oct 2017 16:41

witcher wrote:Interesting discussion for sure. Ya maybe the hard data is really in Japan archives. They did surrender only after second bomb. Possibly Japan knew about allies obtaining little boy and it was more or less expected. Fatman put the surrender in action as they then knew it was not a 'one-and-only' from Europe.
Much of the WWII Japanese military archive is at NARA. Japan has had a team of people copying the records there for years.

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by witcher » 02 Oct 2017 18:21

Of the two bombs, both ignored Tokyo. Speculation here but maybe that was part of the agreement.

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by williamjpellas » 03 Oct 2017 02:47

witcher wrote:Of the two bombs, both ignored Tokyo. Speculation here but maybe that was part of the agreement.
Five cities had been "set aside" for use as atomic bomb targets. These were: Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Kokura (which was actually the primary target of the second mission), Kyoto, and one other that I can't remember just now off the top of my head. Tokyo had already been reduced to smoking ruins by several incredibly destructive firebombing raids by the time the atomic missions were carried out in late summer, 1945.
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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by T. A. Gardner » 03 Oct 2017 02:53

I hate to be mean, but TigerB's latest post is more nonsense and fantasy that goes off in a multitude of useless directions. Take for instance this:
GLOW DISCHARGE DEVICE
Substrate pre-treatment with the VON ARDENNE glow discharge device is the ideal solution for the cleaning of temperature sensitive, non-conductive materials and surfaces. The substrate is cleaned by a low-pressure plasma discharge in a very gentle way as only mildly adhesive loose atoms and molecules are removed.
This whole thing is nothing but a plasma torch of one sort or another. I've made a grunch of these for companies in the advanced materials industry over the years. They're nothing special. You usually use an induction furnace (aka Thermionic generator) for the power source. They typically run at 450 kHz or 2 to 6 MHZ. They're widely used in the flame spray and plasma coating industries for applications of thin films to surfaces.

Nothing to see here folks, move along.

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by witcher » 03 Oct 2017 03:17

RE: Tokyo
I thought there was a huge still operational chem complex in the suburbs north of Tokyo? Reason I remember, it was one of the facilities in Japan working on materials for a last minute shot at the bomb. That book was from many years ago and would take some digging for ref.

Anyway, doing a drop there would have killed 'two birds with one arrow'. Maybe the Allies wanted the facility post war like the spared complexes in Europe. Maybe they did not know how far along the Japanese were, only learning later. I remember it said there were several sites working on the bomb.

No details given on ratio of transferred German/Euro knowledge vs Japan's independent programs.

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by williamjpellas » 03 Oct 2017 03:27

William,

Please PM me with a working EML. I've looked all over, online, for the videos and cannot point you to a LINK. Be warned, you're getting very low quality stuff here but the personalities and locations are recognizable.

Below, you have the sum of the explanation I was given as to how Isomers work.

The man I spoke to said that public understandings of how physics really work are at least a century out of date. We are still working with an expanded Newtonian model with some Relativity thrown in, in the public setting. When, in fact, we have been messing around with time and gravity as field mechanics based on an 'incomplete' UFT model for at least 50 years. You have to wonder where that came from.

His belief is that the Germans were doing Zero Point stuff and that an Isomer is really an unstable 'bandpass gateway' that opens and closes in synch with resonant gamma pulses to that sub-quantum 'energy sea' condition.

When properly stimulated, you are generating 'traveling waves in the medium' which I have no idea how to properly explain beyond saying that they are singularities or micro black holes that are only possible in the subatomic scale due to Bosonic stress of the space time function around compressed atomic orbits (his explanation, not mine, he also said that gravity was a 'suspension, not an attraction').

According to him this is how ALL nuclear weapons really work, only the bomb's disintegration disrupts the wave phenomenon and the ionization column blocks 90% of the gamma which would otherwise flood out and do something similar to what a couple of the nuts predicted: flash burning a very much larger area of the planet than is now the case.

What powers the ionization column is also unique as the earth's strong magnetic field folds close the window. The coincidence of the Mach and blast shock and the resulting Rayleigh Taylor uplift, according to him, have less to do with fluid pressure fronts and more to do with Space Time folding that micro singularity back in upon itself. This is also why it is typically important to get an airburst for best destructive effects.

His opinion was that that if you really only had a few ounces of working radiofuel as a 'cherry red plasmoid', you could not set up a long enough (in time) standing wave in the disintegration process but if you used an isomer, the added polar charge state of the atoms at initiation would cause a peel-back (traveling wave) effect in which the bosonic 'slip' integer of the waves would give your booster fuel the gamma pulse length it needed to get nearly 100% of fusion yield. Every deuterium atom cooking off buys you two neutrons. And the neutrons kick the U238.

I am not an expert. You would need to go to the folks at Sandia GIF or similar to get them to sort the chaff from the wheat on this. From the number of letters after his name, this guy should know what he is talking about but given the way I mangled it, his understanding could easily be lost in my translation.



TIger B, thank you for your very thorough reply. I am now at the very outermost limits of my overall knowledge, WWII research, and particularly my layman's understanding of physics, but I think you are saying that:

1) The state of the art in physics is actually much further advanced than what the general public knows, and further than even most WWII and nuclear weapons researchers have been able to glean in declassified documents. It sounds to me like a good deal of the advancements are due to the development of quantum physics by the Germans and the integration of quantum physics concepts into the previously existing state of the art. This makes sense to me because I have always thought, intuitively, that quantum mechanics must have some application to weapons---but I can count the number of references I have seen in my entire life to such weaponization on the fingers of one hand. Most writers either ignore the possible application of quantum physics to weapons, or are ignorant of it, or maybe pretend that it doesn't exist. Which tells me that there probably are such applications (as you describe here) and they are mostly being kept secret.

2) The Germans were exploring not only a kind of bomb physics rooted in quantum mechanics---and thus their approach to weapons was very different from Einstein - "Jewish Physics"---but also attempting to explore the nature of Zero Point Energy and its possible weaponization. This is entirely possible and in fact is the subject of a book by Nick Cook, The Hunt for Zero Point. https://www.amazon.com/Hunt-Zero-Point- ... 0767906284

There appears to be some sort of reference to some of these concepts in a highly controversial MAGIC intercept alleging the use of nuclear weapons in some form by the Germans against the Russians in 1943.

Now for the really cool stuff:

3) When properly stimulated, you are generating 'traveling waves in the medium' which I have no idea how to properly explain beyond saying that they are singularities or micro black holes that are only possible in the subatomic scale due to Bosonic stress of the space time function around compressed atomic orbits (his explanation, not mine, he also said that gravity was a 'suspension, not an attraction').

According to him this is how ALL nuclear weapons really work, only the bomb's disintegration disrupts the wave phenomenon and the ionization column blocks 90% of the gamma which would otherwise flood out and do something similar to what a couple of the nuts predicted: flash burning a very much larger area of the planet than is now the case.

What powers the ionization column is also unique as the earth's strong magnetic field folds close the window. The coincidence of the Mach and blast shock and the resulting Rayleigh Taylor uplift, according to him, have less to do with fluid pressure fronts and more to do with Space Time folding that micro singularity back in upon itself. This is also why it is typically important to get an airburst for best destructive effects.


By "traveling waves in the medium" I am guessing he means something to do with "wave particle theory". That's purely a layman's guess.

Re: "compressed atomic orbits". This, again, points me in the direction of Dr. Karl Nowak, who was said to be exploring "superdense elements" which had "compressed atomic orbits". He is also said to have explored some method, perhaps having to do with extreme cold (temperatures at or near Absolute Zero), by which he could at least temporarily cause electron orbits around atomic nucleii to decrease in diameter. The end result being the creation of artificial "superdense elements", perhaps including the much-vilified "red mercury". Is that the "cherry red plasmoid" to which you are referring here? And does this R&D have anything to do with the mysterious "pinkish waxy substance" or "plasmoid" added to the basic Hexenkessel fuel-air bomb? Henry Stevens believes the thought-to-exist "cold bomb" is related to these concepts. That's an idea that makes sense on the surface of things, but I am not a physicist and what I writing here is just about as far as I can go given what I have read, and it's making my head hurt. Just kidding. Sort of.

BTW, Nowak's research might also have dovetailed with the HWA project. The Schumann-Trinks device, which may or may not have been what was tested at Ohrdurf but is a likely candidate, included U-233 as its primary bomb fuel. U-233 is produced from thorium-232. Thorium is the same element in which a team of scientists claimed to have isolated small amounts of a previously unknown naturally occurring superdense element known as "Unbibium 122", with an atomic weight of 292. This was in 2008 and of course was immediately assailed with many harrumph-harrumphs by the scientific-academic establishment, blah blah blah. But the point here is that it would have been a logical bridge between Nowak and the HWA in World War II. And possibly one of the reasons---though not the only one---that the HWA went with U-233 instead of U-235 or P-239 as its fissile material of choice.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/2008/04/29 ... books.html Ironically, this research was done mostly be Israeli scientists at Hebrew University in Jerusalem. A tip of my cap to Joseph Farrell for this reference and for his book, The Philosopher's Stone: Alchemy and the Secret Research for Exotic Matter: https://books.google.com/books?id=9JbwI ... ws&f=false

4) I think you are saying that the real action in a nuclear weapon is on the quantum level and has to do with the Unified Field Theory, and that there are possibly various means of doing sub-atomic engineering that would make such weapons smaller and/or more powerful and/or more specific in their effects. And also that this is what the Germans were really trying to do in WWII.

5) And that the Earth's magnetic field interacting with the "ionization columns" prevents a much greater release of Gamma radiation and thus keeps nuclear weapons from being even more destructive than they are. Which makes me wonder if they would behave differently in outer space and/or on other planets with different magnetic fields? I can't recall just now which scientist it was, but I have read that there was at least one Manhattan Project big brain who was in the bunker for the Trinity test who was taking bets on whether the detonation would set the entire planet's atmosphere on fire.

6) PS Do you or your physicist friend believe there were / are any Tesla concepts incorporated into all of this? I ask because it is known that German physics before and during WWII was interested in Tesla and explored some of his concepts.
Last edited by williamjpellas on 03 Oct 2017 03:54, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by williamjpellas » 03 Oct 2017 03:36

witcher wrote:RE: Tokyo
I thought there was a huge still operational chem complex in the suburbs north of Tokyo? Reason I remember, it was one of the facilities in Japan working on materials for a last minute shot at the bomb. That book was from many years ago and would take some digging for ref.

Anyway, doing a drop there would have killed 'two birds with one arrow'. Maybe the Allies wanted the facility post war like the spared complexes in Europe. Maybe they did not know how far along the Japanese were, only learning later. I remember it said there were several sites working on the bomb.

No details given on ratio of transferred German/Euro knowledge vs Japan's independent programs.
Witcher, you may be referring here to either 1) the Riken Institute, located north of Tokyo, and probably the pre-eminent Japanese "big science" R&D entity before and during WWII, or 2) the Sumitomo Corporation Amagasaki Works, located near Tokyo, and according to Robert Wilcox the location at which several thermal diffusion separators were built under direct Japanese Army supervision late in the war.

The "Japan Nuclear Weapons Program" thread here on AHF goes into great detail and debate about all of this. Of course the German and Japanese efforts were connected in some way and to some extent, but specifics are hard to come by even today.

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by williamjpellas » 03 Oct 2017 03:56

T. A. Gardner wrote:I hate to be mean, but TigerB's latest post is more nonsense and fantasy that goes off in a multitude of useless directions. Take for instance this:
GLOW DISCHARGE DEVICE
Substrate pre-treatment with the VON ARDENNE glow discharge device is the ideal solution for the cleaning of temperature sensitive, non-conductive materials and surfaces. The substrate is cleaned by a low-pressure plasma discharge in a very gentle way as only mildly adhesive loose atoms and molecules are removed.
This whole thing is nothing but a plasma torch of one sort or another. I've made a grunch of these for companies in the advanced materials industry over the years. They're nothing special. You usually use an induction furnace (aka Thermionic generator) for the power source. They typically run at 450 kHz or 2 to 6 MHZ. They're widely used in the flame spray and plasma coating industries for applications of thin films to surfaces.

Nothing to see here folks, move along.

Was TigerB stating that the Glow Discharge Device was what detonated nuclear weapons or otherwise caused an explosion? I didn't get that impression from his post. It looks to me like he might have copied and pasted a blurb from an industrial brochure. Perhaps from today's Von Ardenne GmbH company website? EDIT: I just went back over the relevant post and he speaks of "an array of VAD (von Ardenne Devices)" as a substitute for a neutron source. Maybe he can elaborate here in the thread.

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