First atomic bomb was German !?!

Discussions on the equipment used by the Axis forces, apart from the things covered in the other sections. Hosted by Juha Tompuri
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williamjpellas
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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by williamjpellas » 03 Oct 2017 04:13

The key is going to be packaging and power. The bombs are sized for fighters, not bombers, the Werewolf suitcase systems, even smaller.

None of what I have read about the Ohrdruf test/s on March 4 and 12 mention anything like a VAD replacement for the neutron source, they just mention applying the white paste.

Similarly, if you listen to Luigi Romersa's interview, there is also the moment when the phone in his observation bunker rings and "Look out, any time now, it will go off."

This is rather random sounding and frankly gives the impression of some kind of a chemical rather than a radio isomer reaction and as a time release process with imprecise cook off, it would not be applicable to a militarily useful bomb. But sourcing high energy batteries to power a step converter sufficiently to get a discharge from a VAD array, late war, also doesn't appear to be practical. In a bomb application under 15" and 2,400lbs (B-83), I'm not sure we could do it today, short of some kind of isotope battery or mini-RTG. Half the bomb would be battery.

Such is the problem with piecing this together. The theory is there. But the SOA in the engineering is still 1940s, even things like transistors were only just coming into prototype lab use and so you end up with thermionics and a whole bunch of other 'on the test stand, great!' kluge limiters.



This is interesting. I had a lengthy email correspondence with two other researchers recently, and one of the questions I raised was whether the 1944 Rugen Island alleged test detonation might have been a device that---though it worked---was not a practical weapons system. If so it would have been similar to the Ivy Mike shot in that it produced a blast that was, in fact, some kind of atomic or nuclear explosion, but was an approach or type of technology that could not be sufficiently miniaturized for delivery by either bomber or missile. Which in turn might be part of the explanation for why German atomic or nuclear weapons were not used against at least the Western allies. There is at least one document that claims there was at least one German nuclear attack against the Soviets.

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T. A. Gardner
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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by T. A. Gardner » 03 Oct 2017 05:09

You aren't going to set off a nuclear explosion using a plasma torch or induction furnace. It's that simple.

Image

That's the simple version of the output. I won't go through the RF circuits that make that work.

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by Tiger B » 03 Oct 2017 05:40

witcher wrote:RE: Tokyo
I thought there was a huge still operational chem complex in the suburbs north of Tokyo? Reason I remember, it was one of the facilities in Japan working on materials for a last minute shot at the bomb. That book was from many years ago and would take some digging for ref.

Anyway, doing a drop there would have killed 'two birds with one arrow'. Maybe the Allies wanted the facility post war like the spared complexes in Europe. Maybe they did not know how far along the Japanese were, only learning later. I remember it said there were several sites working on the bomb.

No details given on ratio of transferred German/Euro knowledge vs Japan's independent programs.
Drop atomics on the civilian leadership and nobody is left who is recognized as having the authority as will to surrender. Tojo and Company on the War Council will fight to the last man for the honor of a dead god and their own hides while, in a subservient, centralized, society like Japan was at that time, nobody will have the spine or the firepower to argue the finer points.

You will have to take each city by storm and you will bleed by inches if you don't soften them up first.

Now, this can still be done, using the starvation model to weaken and isolate before occupying (mercifully) the helpless populace. But it requires a full on commitment to landing forces and there is no guarantee that the population will not Seppuku or Banzai Charge their way to lasting glory. A _lot_ of Germans took the former route, as the Russians approached Berlin, to avoid the Bitte Frau outcome.

And the Japanese propaganda machine had convince their people that we had horns, tails and drank the blood of baby's.

IMO, Hirohito, just on his awareness of his uncle's activities with Unit 731, should have been executed as a Class A war criminal. But if you are not going to kill him, regardless (i.e. not unconditional surrender) then TIME IS YOURS TO CONTROL. You're not on a schedule. Squeeze and starve as you need to. Japan's naval capabilities were next to zero with the possible exception of the I-400/Seiran force. Their ability to target a nuke of their own against fast moving carrier battle groups was limited and we had near universal lookin to their operational sailing orders via JN27 decrypts.

If they sortie, you can fire a warning shot across Tokyo Bay's bows. And if you are SURE that they are going to hit Ulithi or the West Coast, you can set up something like Operation Teardrop which was in place to stop a German U-Boat raid with similar atomic V-1s, before preemption to decapitate the naval command links and send a strong message, if need be.

You _do not_ take out the negotiators. Or you lose the balance of power by which a war is prevented from becoming a genocidal extinction operation against a strictly dogmatic, military, mindset.

I do not want to think of our people as equivalent to the Golden Horde, rampaging across Asia and razing to the earth any society that didn't immediately capitulate. We are better than that.

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by witcher » 03 Oct 2017 16:05

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Hey small world, Manfred worked for RCA. I had not realized that when I did the original dig in 1996.
The East German patent images then available all still had the condor emblem on pg 1. They have all been washed clean now.

Here is one you can read in von Ardenne words using the vernacular of the 30's. Most of the patents were mirrored in US and Germany.
https://www.google.com/patents/US224143 ... 6AEIwAEwFg


By Solvay 1927, the 'cat's head' was already out of the bag so to speak.

My thesis is the semi-white and university R&D projects used Einstein's special relativity (a nice decoy for spooks) and the black projects had already moved on by 1920-1925. Some [both in the US and France-Germany-Belgium] had never seriously considered using any of the Maxwell-Lorentz-Einstein relativistic theories. Public information on the 'bomb' is a crazy mix of disinformation peppered with some valid lab proofs mixed with an almost religious belief. That is why I keep saying we should move on.

Here is what Tesla said in [1933-34 attached pic]. He was being polite.

Stepping out for a while, checking back in a few weeks.
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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by williamjpellas » 03 Oct 2017 18:08

T. A. Gardner, thanks for the interesting graphic. But I am asking if what you are talking about is the same thing that TigerB was talking about.

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by williamjpellas » 03 Oct 2017 18:12

witcher wrote:-

Hey small world, Manfred worked for RCA. I had not realized that when I did the original dig in 1996.
The East German patent images then available all still had the condor emblem on pg 1. They have all been washed clean now.

Here is one you can read in von Ardenne words using the vernacular of the 30's. Most of the patents were mirrored in US and Germany.
https://www.google.com/patents/US224143 ... 6AEIwAEwFg


By Solvay 1927, the 'cat's head' was already out of the bag so to speak.

My thesis is the semi-white and university R&D projects used Einstein's special relativity (a nice decoy for spooks) and the black projects had already moved on by 1920-1925. Some [both in the US and France-Germany-Belgium] had never seriously considered using any of the Maxwell-Lorentz-Einstein relativistic theories. Public information on the 'bomb' is a crazy mix of disinformation peppered with some valid lab proofs mixed with an almost religious belief. That is why I keep saying we should move on.

Here is what Tesla said in [1933-34 attached pic]. He was being polite.

Stepping out for a while, checking back in a few weeks.
Bruce
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Tesla was definitely very dismissive of Einstein and "Einstein-ian Physics", and Tesla obviously knew a thing or three. My guess is that all of the major approaches to physics (and maybe also some of the minor or lesser known ones) basically "work" to a greater or lesser extent. They vary mostly in their starting point, ie, their primary focus and its related working assumptions about the physical universe. Thus you can use "different math to get the same or similar results", or even different kinds of math to work different kinds of problems, etc. Again that's a layman's point of view.

Your idea that Einstein served to a significant extent (and still does today) as "a nice decoy for spooks" is very interesting. Meanwhile, "the black projects had already moved on by 1920-25". I hadn't considered this notion but it wouldn't surprise me if it were true. If you are writing anything on the subject I would be happy to read it.

PS Von Ardenne was one of the most important early pioneers of television and accumulated hundreds of patents during his incredible career. I am not surprised that he worked for RCA and/or that some of his work and patents ended up in that company.
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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by williamjpellas » 03 Oct 2017 18:26

TigerB, could you please speak to what T. A. is saying regarding your comment about Von Ardenne Devices serving as a neutron source or neutron initiator? Also, I think you state somewhere in this thread that the Rugen Island test was more of a fizzle, and that German authorities had to visit Sweden to explain power outages (from an EMP?). Do you have any documentation for the German visit to Sweden, and do you have any that leads you to the conclusion that Rugen was a fizzle---particularly given Romersma's description of the event, and also what the Zinsser Affidavit has to say. Simon Gunson has stated that the yield of the Rugen test was on the order of one kiloton (1 KT) and believes the observations by Zinsser as to the size and color of the mushroom cloud give some clue as to the yield and also of the materials used. And: can you speak to what you believe this device actually was? Boosted fission? Red mercury or other superdense material detonating U238 or even some kind of small fusion bomb? And again, do you have any documentation that leads you to your conclusions? Many thanks. BTW, Joseph Farrell mentions---I think in Reich of the Black Sun---that there is a British newspaper article with the headline "Berlin Still Silent After 60 Hours". This being in the immediate aftermath of whatever-happened-at-Rugen. The dates match perfectly and so this would appear to be corroborating evidence of an EMP being produced by the Rugen test.

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by Tiger B » 04 Oct 2017 01:57

William,

If it's a tamper system, then the tube is essentially a beryllium lined reflector assembly which propagates, linearly, a straight path neutron stream down to the secondary wad of U-238 at nose end. In this case, the VAD is being used to supply, as _ROTBS_ suggests, a high energy, instantaneous, discharge of tailored voltages whose purety (what the Von Ardenne Device is known for) is tuned to whatever EM/RF resonant capture will trigger the isomer into cascade.

Plasmas can be precision tuned exactly that way. We use plasma windows on some high capability (rapid frequency shifting/lobe steering) communications and radar antenna testbeds. They are very fast reacting and lose little in the way of coherence as induced distortion of the waveform.

Faster/Better than AESA.

The isomer is also likely 'staged', like cars in a train, with paraffin laced with high a purety graphite moderator, acting as an insulator, to prevent the breakdown of the neutron fuel before activation and thus secure the simultaneous propagation of in-stream LD6 neutrons from multiple cathode/anode pairings (possibly of differentiated frequencies/phases as conditioned power) along the tamper wall. Flowing juice through each of the cylinder plugs of Pu-240 or some similar, high energy, radio isomer as:

Cathode:Anode........................Cathode:Anode
Pu-240/Insulator/LD6/Insulator/Pu-240/Insulator/LD6 etc..

This geometry allows the Pu240 to act as a gamma flashover source on both sides of the LD6 plug, to give the enormous temperature induced compression (the 'thermo' in nuclear) to create microfusion in the Deuterium before the bomb dissembles.

The simultaneous generation of multiple wave fronts of neutrons is trapped within the tamper (why the Germans had so much Beryllium on hand) and bounces off a reflector at the back of the weapon to strike the secondary U238 wad and another reflector at the front end of the weapon.

The Isomer _is_ radioactive, it is just markedly less so, in it's metastable state, than normal Pu-240, which is so hot it is useless as ordinary weapon fuel.

Again, as I said, you have to be able to _reliably_ weaponize this capability, you can't just detonate it on a test stand. Which means safe storage and certain, timely, detonation. At least for a few hours after fueling insert of the isomer/insulator/neutron fuel plug train, through a removable aft endcap.

If they were using the bomb shape shown in the books and hinted at in the U.S. Mk.8 casing, WITH PARACHUTE, then it was a fully weaponized capability, because you cannot afford to expend a lot of your detonation energy into the ground on a microyield and that means airburst, on a timer or intervalometer/barometric type system (the Germans didn't have productioned backwards wave oscillators to do a VT system and their UHF radars were too big for the application...).

If it's a pusher assembly, then you instead have concentric bands of 'stacked':

gold lined outer case wall
isomer
insulator
neutron fuel
insulator
primary wad

Like one of those concentric layer cakes with the raspberry filling in which the innermost volume is the protected layer of Uranium 235 or 238. This approach can work but only if the total fuel load is _tiny_ and/or you are again displacing a secondary wad ahead of the primary. If the latter is the case, then the 'bazooka method' of a inner core and outer ring of explosive charges may become a possibility to instead trigger a chemical isomer which basically unwinds a molecular bond instead of a chemical one to release it's energy (note: this is common in modern IHE explosives with complex 'chain' molecules designed to withstand fire, physical shock and HERO but I have never heard of it producing gamma which I believe is essential for a fusion based weapon using LD6 as the initial neutron source).

This system has to be prepackaged, within the bomb, during manufacture, and thus may indicate a different class of weapon as the casing is rapidly going to bloat and get very hot as the paraffin layers will be thinner (maybe zirconium/gold instead?).

That said, if you ever do get a reasonable U235/Pu239 secondary fuel source, it is fairly easy to get a full GaFuFi city killer from this as the entire front end of a Little Boy or especially Fat Man type weapon can be a paired Beryllium reflector which functions, more or less, like an inverse Cassegrain antenna array to focus the neutron storm through a tiny focal point of weapon fuel.

Maybe even enough to stimulate a Plutonium weapon as the total volume of LD6 follows the circumferential rather than just the endcap area (the latter inducing a lot of the deep neutron fuel volume losses in a linearized gamma flashover, it deflagrates before it fuses...).

The resulting neutron flux densities will be exceptionally high with the Layer Cake weapon, you just have to entrain them.

Additionally, if you watched the videos I sent you, Von Weitzsacker, at the end, describes the presence of explosives which is something that a radio isomer doesn't need but a chemical isomer might.

His assertion that 'then you get a considerably greater harvest but it only works with more (radio) fuel than what the experiment describes' is valid ONLY if you are thinking from the standpoint of strategic yields and conventional fission.

I am not. The Germans would not be. Because they are short of gun fuel at 60 kilos per 20KT city killer with an appr. 10% efficiency level. Thus, the German weapon is not a gun design. And why should it be? In 1945, they have ARMIES on their home territory, they cannot afford to sterilize their own countryside with 20KT yields. They need battlefield weapons and such a weapon, especially if it had notably high gamma or neutron radiation output, will still kill tanks on an overlapping wardet/grouped kill basis. Such overlapping blasts will also scare the silly right out of less technologically savvy Russian and particularly Asian troops.

Specifically, in a battlefield weapon or as a _trigger_ for a much larger fission device, I think you could do it because you are using a separate gamma initiator mechanism which bypasses initial fission as the neutron generation capability source and focusses the resulting flux as a kind of 'neutron beam' upon a tiny wad which is drillled out like a honeycomb matrix (what Luis Alvarez was doing on Gadget, after talking to Schlicke`) to ensure total and immediate suffusion of the neutron storm throughout the wad, giving you much more rapid multiplication to RCR.

As for the Rugen test, I would expect this to be a separate methodology as approach, for the simple reason that you are not competing for use of the same set of physicists and material/production resources which are both limited in total, subject to a suspected security breach (could compromise both programs if grouped together), and apt to sudden, complete, destruction from Allied, counter intelligence directed, air attacks.

The Allies killed 60,000 people in Hamburg to get at the Bondur factory and precision machine shops being used to work on coated rotors for the Centrifuge program being undertaken at Harteck's university. Don't think they won't do the same, wherever necessary, to inhibit the German bomb effort. 'They' (High Cabal) want a long war as an excuse to shatter Europe's industry and make a huge amount of profiteering money. Allowing the rise of American Capitalism and the end of Colonial rule. But they will not allow the Reich to have such a lever. Even if they have level every city over 2,000 population in Germany.

Of course, the Germans will respond by maximizing the dispersal of their efforts, throughout the Greater Reich and eventually, beyond it's borders. Including shifting entire plants/processes Eastwards, where the Russians will overrun what Skorzeny doesn't assassinate or blow up in the endkrieg. This is a major problem for the Allies, who didn't see the SS program in the offing and so lost a considerable technology lead, in less than four years, to a nominally barely industrial USSR, by 1949.

Additionally, if the Kriegsmarine is doing the (Bv-222, northern passage route) heavy lifting on getting Japanese personnel and maybe bringing back Monzanite (sp.) or even refined U233 to the Reich, in trade for the provision of separation equipment to Korea, then it is reasonable that they would (politically) wish a piece of the action in trade.

Remember, it was the USN which was running the still classified thermal diffusion column S-50 at Oakridge and the pilot precursors at Anacostia and PNY whose feedstock output may be part of the sudden surge in available bomb fuel, late summer.

It was also a USN scientific board to whom Schlicke made his fusing presentation, with Luis Alvarez as interpreter. This, on a unified, U.S. Army led, Manhattan Project effort shows you how powerful the secondary service was on certain technical aspects.

There is no reason to assume that similar politics were not at work in Germany. Specifically because the Kriegsmarine would be far more likely to be a 'high tech' service and would be reaching for participation as influence in whatever they could as the surface fleet had basically been allowed to wither on the vine and the subs were becoming operationally ineffective.

And yes, I am going from the Farrell book wherein I believe he specifically states; 'And a Swede customs official, passing through the German delegation, noticed that they sure were unhappy about something when the diplomatic courier made it's weekly flight to Stockholm.' I will have to source the text to get you the exact quote.

As for Romersa, this is another one of those "Whoopsie!" moments wherein YOU SEE THE MAN BEING INTERVIEWED (on the videos I sent you) but nobody has a voice stress analysis running or bothers to ask the logical followup: "So, now that you know what a real nuke looks like, was that what you saw?" And the equally important: "How far away were were you from the blast again?"

The man talks about 'a really thick crystal, too thick to be penetrated by any explosion'. Yet he also states the ground moved as a nearly simultaneous event with the blinding flash.

If you read Chuck Hansen's description in _U.S. Nuclear Weapons_; during the Castle Bravo disaster, the lead engineer in the bunker *knew* that they had had a huge overyield specifically because it felt like the bunker was being shoved through the ground. Which should not have happened from the distance it was at as, normally, the P/S seismic wave is less energetic than the blast shock and though it moves far faster, through the ground, it is rapidly dissipated by the insulative mass factor of the dirt itself.

If Romersa felt a similar kick, it can only mean that he was _very close_. Too close to be safe.

And that in turn could make a fizzle look like a successful detonation. Look at the 'Sum Of All Fears' video of the stadium detonation. Even fizzles are not small events. If you are close enough.

I remember Zinser talking about the sequence of the violet/blue/yellow/pink color changes as the unburned radionucleides cooked off. This is indicative of a very inefficient yield with a lot of the radiofuel not being fissiled before the explosive dissembly.

That said, I cannot begin to guess what the total yield was, simply because I have no relative geometry of the test stand or airburst height from which to establish the energetics involved and scale the cloud. That's what those rocket tracer lines are for, in all the atomic test films.

That's likely what Zinser was up there to photographically document.

Romersa's version of the story includes references to a huge wall of smoke which again, could be the base of the Rayleigh Taylor column but which he would not see _as a wall_ (several hundred feet across and dozens of feet tall), unless he was right ontop of the detonation.

Or it was a multihundred KT detonation. At least. Which is not supported by the phonebooth size of Europe's geography.

Look at this-

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/GAr9Ef9Aiz0/maxresdefault.jpg

My understanding is that this is what happens when the blast shock (700-800mph) and the Mach shock (2,500mph) intersect on a fairly low yield, 5-10KT battlefield weapon, after the latter strikes the dirt immediately below the initial blast globe, at hypocenter, and deflects off of it, to overtake the former before running out of juice at about the quarter mile point.

It is indeed a large 'wall' effect. But the stem of the mushroom column above it is not nearly as broad and yet is a much more significant key signature, since it is illuminated like a neon bulb, from the ionization column at it's center, and quickly rises above the effective horizon that typically masks the base wall. If you are at a protectively safe standoff, as with Trinity.

Is Romersa saying he could ONLY see the base of the blast?

That is either a very small yield or/and an insanely close proximity of the bunker to the test stand. Even at 1KT, he is within the LD50 radius for prompts on the weapon if all's he can see is the blast wall extending above his position, but not the fluid pressure differentiation stem, above that.

As for dates. What is important is that the British MOD thought they were going to be catching nukes to the teeth in October 1944 and admitted as much, in a later newspaper editorial.

They in fact notified their civil defense people what that would mean. 'Official Histories' aside, I would guess that that October date was the point at which Patton got remissioned from Berlin to head for Ohrdruf and the Reich's Redoubt.

'Lest they get it right, next time.'

Wacht Am Rhein then becomes a huge spoiling attack, as preemption of that endrun.

The fact that the blast was a fizzle is inherent to the certainty that we massed huge forces in response to the German Ardennes Offensive which would be the logical place to draw out and smash the combined British/American Allied Armies so that you could really hurt their ability to maneuver in depth, across the open North European Plain. Letting OKW strip the West of Armor and do it all again, at the edges of Pomerania.

Thereby stabilizing both fronts.

If your battlefield atomics worked. And if London was still standing (assuming Rugen was a failed city killer).

The Allies (certainly Ike) would have known this and been _very reluctant_ to reinforce a condition of maximum atomic risk to miles long colums of mechanized forces moving up on narrow, channelizing, roads through dense forests, if the test blast had been a success.

While again, the Germans (at least the Kriegsmarine) don't know any better than to signal their failure because they are still sending encrypted reports via radio telegraph which we are nearly instantaneously codebreaking and reading by 1944.

The SS do. Or they are just paranoid bastards who recognize the ultimate strategic importance of their work and the certain hangman's noose that awaits them if Germany loses the war. They are using the Himmlerwaffe to courier reports on a restricted reading list, by hand.

And thus, 'Whoopsie!' You have another emergency effort, right at the end, to keep Hitler from transfering the secondary program isomer nukes, up from Ohrdruf or Austria and disseminating them throughout Germany as part of his 'wave' system of interior city-Festung as all-round defense scheme. This is Operation Clarion, as the maximum effort strikes against the rail transport system. And Order 696, the attacks on what we perceive as the source of the problem, at Pilsen, as a key driver on Patton's highly provocative deep attack, into Czechoslovakia.

IMO, this can only come as a function of breakdown in the security of the SS effort as someone is told to Dead Pledge whatever the SS blackprogram has, so as to allow them to set up the ratlines south, through Italy and The Balkans, via the Catholic Church, while evacuating the top political people, likely Hitler and Bormann, directly.

The differences in Allied responses to these threats /may/ also support the notion of an early fizzle because, after warning the civil defense first responders to begin planning for the worst, the next step would be to begin careful preparation of the British public mindset, to withstand the looming disaster. But the Churchill didn't, which was a big risk for a cynically political animal like him. Unless he knew the test was a failure.

We apparently did think the potential bomber/U-boat rocket attacks were credible, with Operation Teardrop, when the general commanding the air defense region of New York got on the Radio and basically said: "Look folks, the Germans are coming. We're going to catch them, offshore, but you need to know and not be afraid, no matter what happens."

Contrary to popular belief, like 'Stealth', even the public basically knew what atomic weapons were from early in the war, they just didn't know how exactly they functioned or how close they were to fruition.

Nonspecific declaration thus tells the adults in your listening audience that the Germans would not be coming, in the small numbers they could manage, if they didn't have a real ability to hurt their targets, especially at that long range, that late in the war. When the home front situation was so desperate.

Those who understand this and have the means to do so, will therefore be sending their dependents out of the city.

You only make that kind of announcement when it is MORE IMPORTANT that your government not be seen as having been caught out, flatfooted, in conditions whereby a mazcat might otherwise raise significant questions as to the competence of strategic leadership.

You are basically trading public street cred against the security of your intelligence services' sources. Since the alternative, that you are taking Speer's (radio broadcast, warning America: "You're next!", January or March 1945) at face value is also something we would also never do.

Playing The Great Game at this level, as a non-nuclear power facing a trapped, mortally wounded, predatory nation-state, with nuclear weapons of unknown capability or inventory totals, is a very dangerous place to be.

And would go a long ways towards affirming why, despite all due diligence in their investigations, the FBI 'found nothing of note' in the South American progression of U-Boats.

All of which made it to their _intended destination_.

Just as U-234 did.

See? Quid Pro Quo.

Get along to get out as a trade for passive cooperation with the evacuation plan. The easiest way to secure the collateral on that trade is to put it at sea, beyond the reach of any conquering army. Which accounts for the meandering route of the U-Boat as it waited for the code word, telling Fehler that the Fuhrer Boote was successfully away (or had reached Argentina, having left far earlier than is now accepted, leaving a body double behind).

The Germans had the bomb. They gave it to us. Whether as just a fuzing system or something more...operational I don't know.

Japan caught it in the teeth, needlessly, so that we could cover up /where/ the weapons or detonator capabilities came from, in trade for a 'What are you talking about, it works!' overwhelming firepower display as a successful political outcome.

We did not have enough radio fuel, in March 1945, to have weapons before Christmas.

In July, we did. Something changed.

This is the same problem the Germans had. And they solved it, cleverly, with a combination of 'superior chemistry' as Beryllium and Zirconium refinement processes (as late as the 1950s, we were sourcing Zirconium fuel tubes from Germany because we lacked the industrial expertise to create them for the early SSN reactors like that of the Nautilus) and quite possibly, isomer triggers.

Remember, the earliest U.S. weapons had insertable pits and a mandatory, short-interval, replacement requirements for 'certain key components' in the core. Roughly every six months according to _Fifteen Minutes_.

Which could very well correspond both with Radec's statements about our bombs not being American made until 1947. And the reality of a metastable pit which had limited storage time and had to be kept out of the bomb lest a premature cascade cause it to go to even a subcritical yield. Comparatively, modern tritium based triggers/boosters as dry fuel weapons are good for years at a time.

It's all there William. You just have to look at it sideways and assume from the getgo that the All-lied Myth is obfuscating everything related to the end of WWII.


German Small 'Isomer Train', Skinny Battlefield Bomb
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/67/b0/58/67b0 ... 077300.jpg

U.S. Mk.8 'Scaled Little Boy', Supposed Bunker Buster Bomb
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... 8-pic1.jpg

German Concentric 'Layer Cake' Bomb (based on wartime images from the GFZ wind tunnel models)
https://www.modelimex.com/images/thumbs/0252445.jpg

German 'City Killer' Bomb, (Large, Forward, Secondary Wad Well, Inside a Beryllium Lens Reflector Housing)
http://the-wanderling.com/atomic_bomb.jpg
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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by T. A. Gardner » 04 Oct 2017 18:05

This is the same problem the Germans had. And they solved it, cleverly, with a combination of 'superior chemistry' as Beryllium and Zirconium refinement processes (as late as the 1950s, we were sourcing Zirconium fuel tubes from Germany because we lacked the industrial expertise to create them for the early SSN reactors like that of the Nautilus) and quite possibly, isomer triggers.
How would you know that? S1W was and still is classified as to its design. The prototype design for that reactor was still operating at Idaho National Engineering Laboratories (INEL) when I went through the Navy Nuclear Power program (I was assigned to S5G across the way from that plant). I doubt you can show a valid source for that statement since both the suppliers and design were classified, and still are.

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by wm » 04 Oct 2017 19:29

Tiger B wrote:The Allies killed 60,000 people in Hamburg to get at the Bondur factory and precision machine shops being used to work on coated rotors for the Centrifuge at Harteck's university.
With all due respect. It's pure unadulterated nonsense. It was in 1943, the war ended in 1945.
And the number is wrong too.


Tiger B wrote:This is the same problem the Germans had. And they solved it, cleverly, with a combination of 'superior chemistry' as Beryllium and Zirconium refinement processes (as late as the 1950s, we were sourcing Zirconium fuel tubes from Germany because we lacked the industrial expertise to create them for the early SSN reactors like that of the Nautilus) and quite possibly, isomer triggers.
Not true, an American invention, improved by Canadians, made in the US.
And S1W reactors in early nuclear submarines like Nautilus used fuel plates, not "tubes" (properly rods).
The decision to use zirconium a nuclear reactor was essentially due to Admiral Rickover of the US Navy. He was in charge of the development of nuclear-propelled ships and submarines. [...]
Zirconium also did not appear promising as it was expensive and not produced in quantity. Initial tests with zirconium showed that it absorbed neutrons needed for the fission process. It was discovered later that naturally-occurring zirconium contained about 2% by weight of hafnium, which gave zirconium the high level of section for neutron. Kaufman at MIT and Pomerance Oak-Ridge came out with laboratory successes in separating hafnium from zirconium and showed that zirconium in its pure form absorbed only a few neutral.
R. Krishnan, M. K. Asundi Zirconium alloys in nuclear technology
The U. S. Navy Nuclear Propulsion Program under Admiral Rickover set about to exploit the properties of zirconium and its companion element, hafnium, which lent its high neutron capture cross section to the reactor control rods. This program provided the initial stimulus for production and the technological background needed for the very demanding application in nuclear power reactors. In about 1956, zirconium became available outside government programs, and the chemical process industry began to use it in a variety of severe corrosion environments. The first commercial power reactors used stainless steel to clad the uranium-dioxide fuel because it was easier and cheaper to fabricate, but by 1965 the force of neutron economy had made zirconium alloys the predominant cladding material for water-cooled reactors.

Canadian scientists in their quest for a reactor that used natural uranium found zirconium alloys an indispensable part of their system. The investigators at the Chalk River laboratories of Atomic Energy of Canada Limited contributed much to the technology. In 1975, about 4000 tons of zirconium metal were produced in the United States, France, and the USSR.
J. H. Schemel ASTM Manual on Zirconium and Hafnium

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wm
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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by wm » 05 Oct 2017 10:30

Tiger B wrote:In 1947, a vessel called 'The Flying Enterprise' was lost in the approaches to the English Channel, during a massive storm. They refused all international assistance which were rapidly onscene, preferring to wait for US/USN vessels and it was later revealed that the reason was that they were carrying Zircaloy rods for the USN SSN reactor project.
Yes, because the US Navy (the naval warfare service branch of the United States Armed Forces) used surplus, private owned, small shitty cargo ships captained by idiots (her captain was directly responsible for her sinking, and later tried deflect the blame by posturing as a hero) to send its super secret shipments.

Tiger B wrote:As I have said many times, the Germans knew about the Manhattan Project from multiple means, very early in the war. The radio telephone 'booth' in the British and American war rooms that Churchill and Roosevelt used to talk to each other about _everything_ was encrypted by an American Siemens derived coding box and the Germans were 'party lining' it, at least for the American-sent half of the conversation, from 1940 onwards, using a SIGINT station on the line of sight, in the Netherlands.
Roosevelt and Churchill used the SIGSALY secure speech system.
SIGSALY used one-time pads, and because of that even God himself wouldn't be able to break it.
One-time pads are unbreakable by definition.


And BTW zirconium wasn't even any super secret material:
as early as March 1951 the US Atomic Energy Commission issued a press release announcing the intention to obtain zirconium and hafnium from commercial sources and asking for expressions of interest. In November the same year 35 companies were invited, and in January 1952 six companies made bids for the contract.
This was a deliberate strategy by another legendary sailor, Admiral Hyman Rickover, at the time both the commanding officer of the Naval Reactor Program and a US Atomic Energy Commission official. Having taken the decision to use zirconium in the fuel rods as early as 1947, he did not want the naval reactor programme to be dependent on one supplier only, especially not a government agency, even though the Oak Ridge National Laboratory (of atom bomb fame) and the National Bureau of Mines had been successful zirconium producers in the initial phases.
Lars Ohrstrom, The Last Alchemist in Paris

In Europe the only producer of reasonably pure zirconium was Koninklijke Philips N.V. of the Netherland (as in non-German company) which patented its process in 1928, and used its zirconium mostly in photography flashlights.

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by T. A. Gardner » 05 Oct 2017 20:16

Tiger B wrote:I would need access to my full library, which has long since been lost to me, to quote the author who proved that the Dutch company which sold the Zirconium fuel TUBES (rods are a solid) was traced to a German industrial conglomerate. It was published in an industrial periodical.
Ah, the old "I had that somewhere but it no longer exists" ploy (aka Argument from ignorance fallacy)...

The Velasco network was equally operational from early in the war and, by June 1943, had discovered something so critical in the U.S. program as to cause Alcazar Velasco to risk a trip via the Portugese Azores/CAR/Germany route to report to Hitler in person.
Velasco has been repeatedly thoroughly discredited as a source. Even right here on this very board.

viewtopic.php?t=184899

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by David Thompson » 05 Oct 2017 21:16

A post from Tiger B, containing his undocumented notions about present day politics, was removed, because AHF is an apolitical forum.

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by Tiger B » 05 Oct 2017 23:01

WM,

You use a 'tiny little ship' because it's cheap and you can control the total number of people in contact with the cargo by loading it at sea. A high level charter or a liner would expose you to hundreds of interactions and greatly expand the security risk by requiring the use of dockside lading via a normal union (mafia) stevedor and customs check.

Additionally, The Flying Enterprise was about 7,000 tons and 418ft long. A Liberty ship around 440ft and 15,000 tons.

For the era, it was not small.

Additionally, you are misreading what Rickover was doing. By 'opening up the contractor base' what he was doing was HIDING the fact that he was outsourcing a vital strategic material, overseas. Because we couldn't get the hafnium out of the material and then alloy into a machinable part stock. If this became known, it would be a very embarrassing situation, before Congress, and a strategic weakness to be showing the Soviets.

This is, again, why you have a covert acquisition effort using the slush fund that all services have in their ops accounts.

>
During my research I had often wondered why that man had risked his life for an ordinary merchant ship and, as the drama had unfolded in the Atlantic, why the Americans had rushed destroyers to the scene to guard the ship day and night. What had been even more curious was why those involved in the rescue had been visited by FBI agents soon after the ship was lost.
...
But what about those destroyers Shipwreck expert Richard Larn, a 22-year-old Royal Navy diver at the time, confirms that governments do not normally invest time and money on doomed merchant vessels.
...
According to Kaianders Sempler, a Swedish adviser to, and writer about, the chemical industry, there is evidence that the ship was carrying a consignment of zirconium. This chemical element is still used in nuclear reactors to this day, and in the early 1950s was considered more precious than gold. Any zirconium aboard Flying Enterprise was said to be destined for the worlds first nuclear pressure water reactor - the prototype for the one that would propel the worlds first nuclear-powered submarine, the USS Nautilus, launched in 1954.
...
Dick Moody was aboard the tugboat Turmoil when it towed Flying Enterprise. Had he heard of any secret cargo He told me that it came as no surprise to him that there was more to the story than met the eye, especially as he said he had been visited by the FBI soon after the sinking.
>

http://www.divernet.com/wrecks/p298336- ... prise.html

SIGSALY was by no means perfect. Their concept of what 'digital' was is not what would meet today's standards. Specifically there is an ANALOGUE step conversion in the pulse modulated voice vs. FM stepped spreading code and when you know that, you can remove the 'randomness' in the speech overlays, through a little bit of intuitive anatomics (the voice ennunciation rate vs. the 25hz sampling interval) which leaves you with a distorted but intelligible speech pattern.

You're not generating PRN as a cover waveform, you are generating a distortion overlaid upon music, overlaid atop a voice. The music has a rhythm, therefore it has a pattern. The voice has an intonation beat cycle relative to muscle contractions in the vocal chords and lungs, therefore you can synchopate the one to the other. Everytime you make a sampleable pattern, you give your enemy a lookin on your system. Even if it's just once per crypt. Because the underlying contributors to the covering waveform are REGULAR.

More importantly, SIGSALY did not go into service until JULY 1943. Roosevelt and Churchill were talking atomics, long before then. The key point being that the Germans had inside knowledge from the Velasco network and from their COMINT service decrypts o the American/British and the Russian networks. They even had a direct mole, acting as a triple agent. There was no reason for Hitler to NOT proceed with a weapons program, because the other side was and if it blew up the planet or left Germany as Europea a radioactive wasteland, the only counter would be an equivalent threat to America and Britain.

Remember what Hitler once said: "For myself, I am an honorable man of my word, for Germany, I am whatever my nation needs me to be." That means he would lie, cheat, steal and butcher to advance Germany's cause.

Germany does not win the war if America gets nukes. They can wipe the floor with the Soviets and _SS:GB_ take the British Isles by storm. And they will lose, once the American B-36 and Atomic Weapons are married together.

Motive and Outcomes are everything. Know the man and you know how he thinks and from that what his responses will be to certain stimuli. Hitler was a giantist. A size freak. And a megalomaniacal personality that wanted to have it all. And refused to give back a single inch when it had been taken. He would protect that sense of proprietary ownership anyway he could.

And, from summer 1943 onwards, there was only one weapon which would give him that outcome.

So where is that bomb program?

There are far too many material resources specific to a breeder reactor effort on Submarine (U-864, U-234, U-873 plus SIXTEEN OTHERS) lading lists.

Far too continuous and expensive an effort to find the wrecks of those subs and haul them up to empty them of whatever secrets they hold.

Far too many chunks of plutonium blown out of a runaway supercritical meltdown event at Gattow.

Far too many witnesses to test events who describe things that could only be known to someone who has seen a real nuclear event.

Far too much money invested in a 'Buna' plant which didn't operate as all other Buna factories did.

Far too much specific equipment which is outright LIED about in _Now It Can Be Told_ as a function of particle separators that did exist and a Uraneinveiren reactor effort which didn't need them.

Far too much expertise, vanishing into the East to provide the Soviets a working bomb, less than four years after the American detonation. Or coming West to miraculously solve our detonator problems.

Far too much knowledge on things like the true multiplication factor (better than our own number) which could only come from cross section experiments which the OFFICIAL GERMAN STORY says Heisenberg prevented from happening.

Far too many, top level (Oppenheimer, Radecs, Teller) U.S. personalities in the atomic effort who outright say that the bombs were of German provenance.

Far too large an interdiction campaign, even within Germany itself, through out the war and specifically at the endkrieg with the final shutdown of the transport network.

Far too much histogram and deposition gradient obfuscation of the known test sites radiation patterns as well as the fact that they had critical forensic proofs like Trinitite, to be innocent.

Far too large an evidentiary trail for a Japanese/German courier connection, across the Arctic.

With all of these bumps in the truth rug, the official story can only be considered an All-lied Myth. A political construct to cover for our own lack of ability to build a weapon. And possibly for the escape of the world's most hated man in trade for his arsenal. Which worked. When ours did not.

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by Tiger B » 05 Oct 2017 23:11

TAG,

I have always maintained that my library was small. Where I have access to proofs, I post them. As much for the respect of their author's copyright as to satisfy you.

When you have lived three years homeless on the streets, losing 50,000 dollars in books and research materials, you come talk to me and as the proud Herrenvolk used to say: "We will give you the seeds to replant your civilization."

Until then, have the courtesy to explain why all the contra-indicatory points I have listed above exist and yet we still trust our government's official lie.

It is crucially important to the future health of our nation to understand the great evil that happened over Japan on August 6 and 9, 1945. The essence of that explanation lies in the reality of where the bombs as the theory for their design actually came from. That the bad guys did the heavy lifting on the miracle weapon and the white hats did not, as a function of the blessings of G-o-d win through by fated outcome.

The action as the weapons were not American. And our Founders warned us, never to adopt the viciousness of our European forebears.

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