First atomic bomb was German !?!

Discussions on the equipment used by the Axis forces, apart from the things covered in the other sections. Hosted by Juha Tompuri
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T. A. Gardner
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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by T. A. Gardner » 05 Oct 2017 23:24

The Flying Enterprise, if it was even carrying any Zirconium at all, wasn't carrying it as a finished product but raw material. It would have likely come from Dutch Philips corporation, not a German firm, as Dutch Philips was the leading manufacturer of pure zirconium metal in Europe at the time.

http://www.sportdiver.com/photos/wreck- ... enterprise

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Flying_Enterprise

http://www.wrecksite.eu/wreck.aspx?82514

Given that the ship stayed afloat with a bad list for over three days, if the cargo was that important I would think a more concerted effort to salvage the ship would have been made. But, in the world of conspiracy theories some crackpot one like "The principles involved didn't want anyone to know about XYZ, so they didn't make any extra effort to salvage the ship..." or something like that to explain away the discrepancy gets trotted out.
Given the publicity of the sinking, and subsequent dives and salvage attempts on the wreck by several companies and numerous divers, if Zirconium were aboard they're be physical evidence of it by now. Yet, that doesn't exist. Again, likely to be explained away by a convoluted conspiracy theory.

It is really on TigerB to prove with a reasonable set of sources the ship was actually carrying any Zirconium at all.

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by wm » 06 Oct 2017 09:28

Tiger B wrote:You use a 'tiny little ship' because it's cheap and you can control the total number of people in contact with the cargo by loading it at sea. A high level charter or a liner would expose you to hundreds of interactions and greatly expand the security risk by requiring the use of dockside lading via a normal union (mafia) stevedor and customs check.
Of course one might ask why didn't the US Navy use one of its own numerous cargo ships...
And what was so secret in transporting zirconium, commonly used to coat/clad things, especially that they advertised openly in trade press their need for zirconium.

Tiger B wrote:SIGSALY was by no means perfect. Their concept of what 'digital' was is not what would meet today's standards. Specifically there is an ANALOGUE step conversion in the pulse modulated voice vs. FM stepped spreading code and when you know that, you can remove the 'randomness' in the speech overlays, through a little bit of intuitive anatomics (the voice ennunciation rate vs. the 25hz sampling interval) which leaves you with a distorted but intelligible speech pattern.
So what if an analogue step conversion was needed, voice is analogue and needs conversion - we are not robots.
You can't remove noise from transmissions which are mostly noise.

Tiger B wrote:More importantly, SIGSALY did not go into service until JULY 1943. Roosevelt and Churchill were talking atomics, long before then.
Roosevelt and Churchill used cable and wrote letters, but anyway the earlier A-3 privacy system didn't use any encryption, it merely made the voice intelligible for a casual listener.
The Allies were aware of its obvious limitations, the Germans were aware that the Allies were aware.
The contents of the conversations were obvious British orders for the U.S. War Industry, but the speakers used cover names for the items which they spoke about, such as "grapefruits", "pineapples", etc. It was evident the speakers on that wireless telephone were aware of the possibility that their conversations might be intercepted. Sometimes they warned each other by saying: "Send me a cable about that, don't mention it on the telephone."
TICOM report 'I-190 Extracts from report on interrogation of Dr Hans Wilhelm Thost' - 1946

Tiger B wrote:Far too much money invested in a 'Buna' plant which didn't operate as all other Buna factories did.
Too bad the Buna plant was quickly completed by the Poles after the war, and has been producing synthetic rubber since then to this day - as intended by the Nazis.
The plant is one of the world’s largest manufacturers of synthetic rubber today, and it's quite possible the tires on your car were made from Auschwitz rubber.
Of course nobody would buy rubber made in Auschwitz so they are hiding behind the name Synthos S.A.

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by williamjpellas » 06 Oct 2017 19:26

I get where you're coming from, TigerB, and in fact I am in agreement with you on some of your points, particularly most (though not all) of what I consider to be your most important assertions. I cannot concur with some others because I do not see sufficient documentary proof. It will take some time for me to do justice to your scholarship and to the considerable size of your posts and so it may be some time before I can put a proper response in this thread. But I appreciate your contribution a great deal.

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by williamjpellas » 06 Jan 2018 03:48

Tiger B wrote:WM,

SIGSALY was by no means perfect. Their concept of what 'digital' was is not what would meet today's standards. Specifically there is an ANALOGUE step conversion in the pulse modulated voice vs. FM stepped spreading code and when you know that, you can remove the 'randomness' in the speech overlays, through a little bit of intuitive anatomics (the voice ennunciation rate vs. the 25hz sampling interval) which leaves you with a distorted but intelligible speech pattern.

You're not generating PRN as a cover waveform, you are generating a distortion overlaid upon music, overlaid atop a voice. The music has a rhythm, therefore it has a pattern. The voice has an intonation beat cycle relative to muscle contractions in the vocal chords and lungs, therefore you can synchopate the one to the other. Everytime you make a sampleable pattern, you give your enemy a lookin on your system. Even if it's just once per crypt. Because the underlying contributors to the covering waveform are REGULAR.

More importantly, SIGSALY did not go into service until JULY 1943. Roosevelt and Churchill were talking atomics, long before then. The key point being that the Germans had inside knowledge from the Velasco network and from their COMINT service decrypts o the American/British and the Russian networks. They even had a direct mole, acting as a triple agent. There was no reason for Hitler to NOT proceed with a weapons program, because the other side was and if it blew up the planet or left Germany as Europea a radioactive wasteland, the only counter would be an equivalent threat to America and Britain.


Remember what Hitler once said: "For myself, I am an honorable man of my word, for Germany, I am whatever my nation needs me to be." That means he would lie, cheat, steal and butcher to advance Germany's cause.

Germany does not win the war if America gets nukes. They can wipe the floor with the Soviets and _SS:GB_ take the British Isles by storm. And they will lose, once the American B-36 and Atomic Weapons are married together.

Motive and Outcomes are everything. Know the man and you know how he thinks and from that what his responses will be to certain stimuli. Hitler was a giantist. A size freak. And a megalomaniacal personality that wanted to have it all. And refused to give back a single inch when it had been taken. He would protect that sense of proprietary ownership anyway he could.

And, from summer 1943 onwards, there was only one weapon which would give him that outcome.


So where is that bomb program?


There are far too many material resources specific to a breeder reactor effort on Submarine (U-864, U-234, U-873 plus SIXTEEN OTHERS) lading lists.

Far too continuous and expensive an effort to find the wrecks of those subs and haul them up to empty them of whatever secrets they hold.


Far too many chunks of plutonium blown out of a runaway supercritical meltdown event at Gattow.

Far too many witnesses to test events who describe things that could only be known to someone who has seen a real nuclear event.

Far too much money invested in a 'Buna' plant which didn't operate as all other Buna factories did.

Far too much specific equipment which is outright LIED about in _Now It Can Be Told_ as a function of particle separators that did exist and a Uraneinveiren reactor effort which didn't need them.


Far too much expertise, vanishing into the East to provide the Soviets a working bomb, less than four years after the American detonation. Or coming West to miraculously solve our detonator problems.

Far too much knowledge on things like the true multiplication factor (better than our own number) which could only come from cross section experiments which the OFFICIAL GERMAN STORY says Heisenberg prevented from happening.

Far too many, top level (Oppenheimer, Radecs, Teller) U.S. personalities in the atomic effort who outright say that the bombs were of German provenance.

Far too large an interdiction campaign, even within Germany itself, through out the war and specifically at the endkrieg with the final shutdown of the transport network.

Far too much histogram and deposition gradient obfuscation of the known test sites radiation patterns as well as the fact that they had critical forensic proofs like Trinitite, to be innocent.

Far too large an evidentiary trail for a Japanese/German courier connection, across the Arctic.


With all of these bumps in the truth rug, the official story can only be considered an All-lied Myth. A political construct to cover for our own lack of ability to build a weapon. And possibly for the escape of the world's most hated man in trade for his arsenal. Which worked. When ours did not.


I am not certain who the "triple agent" was. Could you elaborate?

There are some who like to throw snark at de Velasco, something I have never understood for a moment. There is more than enough personal testimony, for example in Secret War and Game of Foxes, regarding his effectiveness as a spy for me to credit him with a highly successful espionage career, including at least a partial penetration of the Manhattan Project---as he claimed.

The B-36 Peacemaker was indeed intended to serve as a true intercontinental bomber in the event that Great Britain fell to the Nazis and that country and its territory were no longer available as a forward staging area for air and sea invasions of Nazi-occupied Europe.

You state that "...there was no reason for Hitler to NOT proceed with a weapons program, because the other side was and if it blew up the planet or left Germany (and) Europe a radioactive wasteland, the only counter would be an equivalent threat to America and Britain". I believe the Nazis already had such a counter, in the form of their nerve gas agents. Or at least, that this came close to a WMD that would have been on the same scale as Allied nuclear weapons coming out of the Manhattan Project, and British and Japanese bioweapons from Project Vegetarian and Unit 731, respectively. But they shrank back from their use and honestly I'm not sure I understand exactly why, other than the threat by both Britain and the USSR of overwhelming responses---in Britain's case with bioweapons and from the Soviets, their own massive stockpile of gas. In truth, there was a great deal of what we know today as "WMD" research and development going on in WWII.

Carter Hydrick seems to be the leading authority on the Buna plant in Poland, and I just have not made the time to carefully read his book, Critical Mass. I did email him with an invite to correspond with me and join the research group of which I am currently a member, but I never heard back from him. I have also attempted to contact various other prominent names in the field of contrarian Second World War history and research. Most of these either did not respond or gave a cursory reply and that was it. A couple of them have been very gracious and have provided a great deal of background information, documentary sources, and so on. In addition to Hydrick, I have reached out to Eri Yagi, Mark Walker, "The Wanderling", Robert Wilcox, Rainer Karlsch, Simon Gunson, "Machinga", and "Fotografr7", with the last two being usernames of regular posters here on AHF.

Now It Can Be Told was a terrible attempted whitewash and is demonstrably false in several areas. General Groves was deliberately lying and participating in a disinformation campaign with much of what he said in that book, particularly his excuse for why the US Occupation forces systematically destroyed all Japanese cyclotrons at the close of WWII.

Agreed re: the neutron fission multiplication experiments and also about the ahem, "Official German Story" centered around Heisenberg which served as the postwar cover for what was really going on with Diebner, Gerlach, Harteck, the Heereswaffenamt, possibly the Nazi Bell, Project Hexenkessel, and so on.

I have heard the quote from Oppenheimer---FRANK Oppenheimer, that is, not Robert---but not Radecs or Teller. I know that Teller did point to German wartime theoretical work, specifically that of Karl Gottfried Gudderley, as being "very helpful" to him when Teller was working on the American H-bomb with Stanislaus Ulam.

Re: trinitite, presumably at the Rugen Island test site. You have stated this before. If you have any documentation I would like to see it.

Re: the apparent Allied nuclear weapon and related infrastructure interdiction campaign, it sure looks like one existed. For sure, this was going on at sea, where far too many of the U-boat, I-boat, and Italian submarine missions to and from the Far East were intercepted and sunk for that to have been coincidence.

Re: the Arctic air connection between Germany and Japan, I have been looking for reliable sources for some time. Can you provide any? Thank you.

Sorry, but I definitely DO NOT believe that the Little Boy bomb was a captured German weapon. There is far, FAR too much original, primary source documentation about its design and development for me to buy that particular conspiracy theory. However, I can well believe that the fusing for the Fat Man implosion bomb came to the US by way of the German submarine, U-234, and specifically, from Hans Schlicke, a German military scientist who was on board. Again, unfortunately, it seems that Hydrick makes the best case for this and I have yet to read him in detail. Joseph Farrell covers some of the same territory but he's just a bit too speculative about some of the "down in the weeds" details for me to buy all of what he says just yet. I'm willing to listen and to consider the evidence, though.

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by ILAN » 04 Jun 2018 04:43

Germany had the potential to build nuclear weapons but I heard Heisenberg sabotaged it.

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 28 Jun 2018 19:05

ILAN wrote:Germany had the potential to build nuclear weapons but I heard Heisenberg sabotaged it.
1) no
2) no

The reason why you "heard" that is :

The only excuse Heisenberg gave to himself for his failure not to have built the A bomb first was that he and the german scientists were "honorable antinazi gentlemen who sabotaged the project". But, we know it is a lie.
The german authorities decided to stop the atomic bomb project in the end of the year 1941, when they realize the war would be very long and very possibly resulting in a defeat... so they needed all $$$ to go to instant warfare.
Scientists like Heisenberg were asked : 1) how much would it cost to realize the atomic bomb 2) how long would it be ? The answers to theses 2 questions were the same : it was too expensive and too long (more than one year, Heisenberg thought about 5 or 6 years).

So indeed the german atomic bomb was buried in late 1941 because of the failure of Barbarossa.

At the end of the war, german scientists like Heisenberg were prisoners in an "on wire" house. The britishs recorded their reactions when they learnt the first atomic bombings on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. These recordings are known as The Farm Hall Records or Transcripts, edited by Jeremy Bernstein in the 1990's.
It is very interesting. Heisenberg and others could not believe it. They thought it was quite impossible at the time. They had no idea how the Allies did it... they were devastated. After a moment of reflections Heisenberg managed to find the way the american scientists did. But his conclusion was the same that he had in 1941 when asked by german authorities : Germany could not do it in time (before 5 or 6 years).
If Barbarossa would have succeeded, Heisenberg and others would certainly or so have discovered the A bomb first.

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by T. A. Gardner » 30 Jun 2018 00:32

williamjpellas wrote:
T. A. Gardner wrote:I hate to be mean, but TigerB's latest post is more nonsense and fantasy that goes off in a multitude of useless directions. Take for instance this:
GLOW DISCHARGE DEVICE
Substrate pre-treatment with the VON ARDENNE glow discharge device is the ideal solution for the cleaning of temperature sensitive, non-conductive materials and surfaces. The substrate is cleaned by a low-pressure plasma discharge in a very gentle way as only mildly adhesive loose atoms and molecules are removed.
This whole thing is nothing but a plasma torch of one sort or another. I've made a grunch of these for companies in the advanced materials industry over the years. They're nothing special. You usually use an induction furnace (aka Thermionic generator) for the power source. They typically run at 450 kHz or 2 to 6 MHZ. They're widely used in the flame spray and plasma coating industries for applications of thin films to surfaces.

Nothing to see here folks, move along.

Was TigerB stating that the Glow Discharge Device was what detonated nuclear weapons or otherwise caused an explosion? I didn't get that impression from his post. It looks to me like he might have copied and pasted a blurb from an industrial brochure. Perhaps from today's Von Ardenne GmbH company website? EDIT: I just went back over the relevant post and he speaks of "an array of VAD (von Ardenne Devices)" as a substitute for a neutron source. Maybe he can elaborate here in the thread.
Don't know, don't really care. The device he's describing is widely used in industry for a number of applications, none of which have anything to do with nuclear weapons.

This is an induction plasma torch:

Image

Here's an industrial plasma torch widely used for metal cutting:

Image

They're common and nothing special.

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by histan » 02 Jul 2018 17:13

This is a subject about which I know very little and have read the discussion with interest.

Then I come across something that I know quite a bit about when I read this:

"The Allies killed 60,000 people in Hamburg to get at the Bondur factory and precision machine shops being used to work on coated rotors for the Centrifuge program being undertaken at Harteck's university."

which is utter nonsense.

The Hamburg Raid is one of the most studied actions by Bomber Command in the Second World War. The background to it and the reason for it have been extensively researched by many authors and not one of them has suggested that this was the reason for the raid nor has discovered any evidence to suggest that it was.

When I read such rubbish about something I do know about it does make me question the rest of what has been posted that I know little about.

Regards

John

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by williamjpellas » 25 Jul 2018 01:49

Bondur was real, but the idea that Hamburg was leveled in an effort to stamp out part of a would-be Nazi atomic bomb infrastructure is not something for which I have seen any documentary support. Please note, however, that this does not mean that it is impossible. "Absence of proof is not proof of absence", particularly when some important documentation about WWII German nuclear "black projects" has emerged in recent years.

http://qr.ae/TU1O5J

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by Richard Anderson » 25 Jul 2018 03:54

williamjpellas wrote:
25 Jul 2018 01:49
Bondur was real, but the idea that Hamburg was leveled in an effort to stamp out part of a would-be Nazi atomic bomb infrastructure is not something for which I have seen any documentary support. Please note, however, that this does not mean that it is impossible. "Absence of proof is not proof of absence", particularly when some important documentation about WWII German nuclear "black projects" has emerged in recent years.
Sorry, but in logical argument the phrase is ""the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence". Proof is a different matter. Unfortunately, what you are pursuing involves a complete absence of evidence, except for the contrary assumption.
"Is all this pretentious pseudo intellectual citing of sources REALLY necessary? It gets in the way of a good, spirited debate, destroys the cadence." POD, 6 October 2018

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by histan » 27 Jul 2018 23:35

There appears to be some possible confusion over cause and effect with regard to raid on Hamburg.

The fact that this particular factory was in Hamburg and that there was a bomber raid in Hamburg are not related. There is no cause and effect just the facts that the factory was in Hamburg and Hamburg was bombed

If the factory had been in Essen then the Bomber Command raids on Essen would have been attributed, by those who peddle this kind of nonsense, to the fact that this factory was in Essen.

Similarly for Cologne or any other city attacked by Bomber Command or the USAAF.

I know of one light bomber attack where there is still some mystery surrounding the reason behind the attack. There is absolutely no mystery behind the attack on Hamburg.

Regards

John

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by williamjpellas » 28 Jul 2018 06:04

Richard Anderson, thank you for the correction. In this thread, I am, indeed, discussing evidence and not proof. That is an important distinction.

Histan, the biggest reason why I am not discounting the Hamburg raid out of hand is that it appears to me there probably was an organized effort by the Allies to disrupt the transfer of technology and materiel between Germany and Japan---especially the cargoes related to the nuclear weapons R&D that was being done in both of those nations during the war. If at least some of the "Yanagi" submarine missions were attacked specifically because they were known or suspected to be connected to any of the various Axis atomic bomb "black projects", then why not nuclear-related industrial infrastructure, as well? Certainly the Norsk Hydro plant in Norway was attacked multiple times specifically because of its potential use in building Nazi nuclear weapons. The destruction of the Riken Institute north of Tokyo in the Great Fire Raid of March 1945 appears to have been a fortunate coincidence rather than the result of a specific attack, but it would not shock me if there were some spooks in the US high command who had in mind to destroy the Riken and make it look like collateral damage.

Regarding the "light bomber attack" that you mentioned, do you mean the British Mosquito that apparently came very close to killing one of the top German nuclear scientists, seemingly out of the blue? IIRC it was von Ardenne, and there are suspicions that there was a British mole who tipped them off as to von Ardenne's whereabouts on the day in question. I read somewhere that some speculate the mole was Gerlach, and that this is why his diary is stlll off limits to researchers in the present.

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by williamjpellas » 29 Jul 2018 05:33

LWD wrote:
04 Sep 2013 17:52
There is no other evidence of those bombs. I've yet to see anyone produce any Soviet material that suggest them. Furthermore the use of multiples is very questionable. The linkage of nuclear to NBC didn't exit in that period either. Indeed chemical and biological weapons were outlawed this was not the case with nuclear weapons. A misunderstanding or mistranslation is the best bet in this case.

As for U233 there is little to suggest it would be as pure as you seem to think. Indeed contamination was a serius problem with its use as a weapons material. In that regard it's worth noteing that post war the US did experiment with it some but gave up on it. I hardly think that would be the case if you could generate small bombs as easily as you suggest.

The senario is hardly plausible. It is perhaps just short of impossible. There is little or nothing that I've seen that doesn't "add up" in light of the axis atomic science. If some wish to tilt at windmills they are welcome to it but the rest of us know that they aren't giants.
Actually, the United States and the Soviet Union both did extensive work with U-233 in the years following the end of WWII. The US, in particular, produced a considerable amount of U-233 and did quite a large number of experiments with it. These ran the gamut from actual bomb detonations to the construction of all kinds of manufacturing and logistics infrastructure.

http://www.torioverde.net/files/Chronol ... A_Docs.pdf

On pages 2 and 3 there are notes concerning the THOREX purification process, which was developed by the US and was capable even fifty-plus years ago of producing U-233 with a contamination level of about 2 (two) parts per million (PPM). For all intents and purposes this was pure, weapon-grade U-233.

Manhattan Project interest in reactor-produced U-233 began during the war years, at least as early as 1943. I have photos of three pages from a declassified internal Manhattan Project report that discusses this in considerable detail. Unfortunately I was unable to load them into this thread because the files are too large, or so a persistent popup insisted each time I tried. I will attempt to find some way to get the photos up here because they are quite relevant to the ongoing discussion.

Meanwhile, here is another original period document, "Fission Yields in Uranium 233", from the United States Atomic Energy Commission, dated 1 November 1947:

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id= ... =1up;seq=1

And this, from a symposium in 1966:

Sease, J.D., Pratt, R.B., and Lotts, A.L. REMOTE FABRICATION OF THORIUM FUELS. United States: N. p., 1966. Web. doi:10.2172/4540168.

It appears that institutional, industrial, and bureaucratic inertia are the biggest reasons why U-233 and the thorium fuel cycle in general were pushed off to the side during the early years of nuclear weapons and energy development in the US. Oak Ridge continued to do considerable R&D until at least the 1970s. I am given to understand that the US ultimately decided to stop further work with U-233 and that the entire American supply either has been disposed of, or is in the process of being disposed of. No time to look up any sources just now. IIRC the same general developments occurred in the Soviet Union. India, however, is investing considerable energy and resources in thorium and U-233 for both reactors and bombs.

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by druid » 04 Sep 2018 19:10

Himmelssäule wrote:
14 Aug 2005 18:07
Hallo,

in Germany a lot of people are searching in the "Jonastal" (ex DDR area) for the laboratories under the earth in which the first atomic bomb should have been built.

The story tells, that General Patton was the first not german at this place - but is "day-book" sites over these days are lost.

After this the bomb was brought to the US - that was also the reason why the US put 2 bombs on Japan - testing and comparing - one made in the US built after the german prototype !


Greetings from Germany,


Himmelssäule
My mother worked in the experimental station of the RFR in Stadtilm. 1942 to 45

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by williamjpellas » 08 Sep 2018 17:33

My mother worked in the experimental station of the RFR in Stadtilm. 1942 to 45

The RFR being the Reich Research Council, correct? Do you know what your mother did there? And do you know the branch or aspect of the German nuclear projects with which she was affiliated? Did she name any names (such as von Ardenne, Diebner, Gerlach, Trinks, Schumann, etc) or give any hints or specific information as to what her work was?

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