First atomic bomb was German !?!

Discussions on the equipment used by the Axis forces, apart from the things covered in the other sections. Hosted by Juha Tompuri
Tiger B
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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by Tiger B » 14 Nov 2018 03:12

DavidFrankenberg wrote:
28 Jun 2018 19:05
ILAN wrote:Germany had the potential to build nuclear weapons but I heard Heisenberg sabotaged it.
1) no
2) no

Read _The Virus House_, _The Brotherhood Of The Bell_ and _The Reich Of The Black Sun_.

Yes, David Irving is a bad, bad, boy. Gives the rest of us conspiracy dabblers a good name. But he has a quote from Speer or Todt that basically runs: 'So they (Gerlach and Heisenberg I think) blow up the nuclear test cell with a steam explosion that could have turned half of Berlin into a radiological swamp, and when I ask them what they needed to get going again, they every meekly said just enough funds to rebuild their mad scientist laboratory. I knew at that moment, that we had the wrong people for the job.'

Then listen to the other half of that contemptuous German 'Professor = Made Man, all others are mere mortals' as the Ureinenverein lecture....hmmmmm. Diebner? It was either him or Weitzsacker. "Here Diebner, if you bring this before the Heereswaffenamt we will all be against you.' Diebner was discussing, in 1942 or early '43 the fact that they had just figured out how to get more than 1:1 multiplication as a precursor to building a reactor (plutonium producing breeder) rather than an 'engine' (power generation system).

Do you honestly think, with the value assigned to nuclear weapons, their widely briefed power (Heisienberg: 'Oh about the size of a pineapple would finish any city') and the spy data they were getting from Velasco and the Spanish as well as their NSA equivalent, that the SS was not riding herd on the Uranium Club's monthly meetings? What do you think happened when Hitler read the transcripts to that meeting?

He sent everyone back to their universities. Put a new man in charge of the Reichs Science Administration. Named Manfred Von Ardenne his special advisor for nuclear weapons, visiting HIM, not Heisenberg (The White Jew) for all further updates while pushing Harteck in with the SS at Buna 102. And giving Diebner essentially his own command within the Army weapons development complex.

That is a top down executive shake up sir. That is spreading your bets to make sure -something- happens. And that is only the part of the program we know about. In addition, there were at least two SS Generals: Hans Kammler (plenipotentiary for special weapons and delivery systems) and another whose name escapes me but who is included in _TBOTB_, who are running eyes-only select dissemination CSAR (Compartmentalized, Special Access Required) programs in the Czech Republic, Poland and Austria. SS Programs about which we know NOTHING.

Do not tell me that they didn't try because Heisenberg said so. Heisenberg was a stuck up idiot who could not even get the neutron density formulas right and was made an utter fool of by Paul Harteck at Farm Hall wherein Heisenberg gave the wrong number, Harteck _off the cuff_ gave a correct one which was closer to perfect than ours was (would remain so until the 1960s and the first super computers) and sent an immediate chill up the spines of everyone in the Epsilon listening station because it was clear that, just like with the rockets, we got the factory floor foremen and the upper floor managerial staff while the real people, the ones who did the majority of the work in little labs in The East (Because we had leveled Hamburg to get a single factor producing Bondur) were all in Soviet hands.

Why do you think Otto Skorzeny spent the last month and a half of the war on the wrong side of the lines 'cleaning up' the abandoned facilities and staff in the overrun East? He wasn't getting a tan.

>>
The reason why you "heard" that is :

The only excuse Heisenberg gave to himself for his failure not to have built the A bomb first was that he and the german scientists were "honorable antinazi gentlemen who sabotaged the project". But, we know it is a lie.
>>

No. It is not. The only reason we have to believe it is that The Great Dane said so. But what happened after his famous meeting with Heisenberg? That's right, he fled to Sweden and then the U.S., leaving behind his family because 'it was that important'.

SUPPOSEDLY, the only thing he carried with him was a diagram of a box with little rods poking out of it that Heisenberg had given him. But that meant nothing. A reactor? Control rods?!? You leave your family in Denmark, in the tender hands of the Gestapo surveillance for a kindergarten drawing?

Now let's apply a little intelligence. It's not 'a reactor'. It's a gas diffusion plant or a centrifuge cascade. Over which Heisenberg has no say because of the separation of territories by which the Nazis let each Professeren have their little fiefdoms but which he knew about because each Professor had to hold his own in conversations with the other UC members or be seen as slacking. They were his peer oversight review.

So Heisenberg knows from Harteck, who hated his guts for stealing all the uranium intended for low-temp cross section experiments, that the G2/G3 centrifuge effort is going ahead. And maybe even a bit on what Herman Goering has just signed an 800 million Reichmark contract for with the SS at Monawitz for a Buna plant that produces no rubber yet consumes more electricity than all of Berlin. Harteck was part of that as well.

And suddenly he uses his Nobel Laureate Theoritician's Mind to do a little basic math. And puts NUMBERS on that little child's diagram. X% in, Y% percentage out times Z many stage rises (Centrifuges have to be tailored for each level of atomic density in the hex concentrations of U235). Now everyone and anyone who knows basic physics and has kept up with prewar articles on the prospects of atom-splitting weapons, can figure out how fast the Germans can get critical mass for a bomb. Keep in mind, this is happening in 1941.

Neils Bohr, Heisenberg's teacher, takes his little traitorous student's paper and in less than a month is out of Denmark, through Sweden and in the U.S., talking to the Manhattan Project people. Gitterdun or the Germans will have the atomic bomb by...X. Say...1944? July 20th? Maybe even sooner. There are rumors of a high energy thermobaric weapon being tested during the Sevastopol campaign.

Of course, Heisenberg has to remain The Good Nazi and Bohr is gone so he will have a continued access (whether he knows it or not) to The West via Agent Griffon as Paul Rosbaud who just so happened to run a special industry publication dedicated to the doings of all the German physics world. And so had routine access to ALL the scribblings of the German UC members. But the point is that Heisenberg is exposed. He has to be seen to be trying to bring The Great Dane onboard an ill-advised effort to make Aryan Physics go boom. And thus Bohr cuts him no slack and continued to slag him off, long after the war is finished. Because even The White Jew would be in serious trouble if the Germans ever found out he had sabotaged their atomic program.

IMO, his 'sudden lapse' of basic cross section radial maths at Farm Hall is a part of this.

>>
The german authorities decided to stop the atomic bomb project in the end of the year 1941, when they realize the war would be very long and very possibly resulting in a defeat... so they needed all $$$ to go to instant warfare.
>>

Rubbish. The Germans are nothing if not smart engineers. They are also completely AR about detail scheduling. If Hitler wasn't high on his own success he would have dumped megabucks into SAMs and Jets. And by that act alone, have increased the duration of the war by 50%. There were 4 million household servants still on the tax roles in _AUTUMN 1944_!! Do not tell me that Fritz Todt or Albert Speer couldn't figure out how to spin the wheels faster.

>>
Scientists like Heisenberg were asked : 1) how much would it cost to realize the atomic bomb 2) how long would it be ? The answers to theses 2 questions were the same : it was too expensive and too long (more than one year, Heisenberg thought about 5 or 6 years).


So indeed the german atomic bomb was buried in late 1941 because of the failure of Barbarossa.
>>

Hitler had the two main (Jewish controlled) banks of Germany loaning each other money from 1933 onwards. Money which neither had assets to cover. Money which made the German Miracle something of a 'Miracle the checks didn't start bouncing sooner!' fraud. If Heisenberg had told Hitler or Bormann that he needed 100,000 EM separators and 800,00 laborers to pick up microgram concentrations of U235 from the tailings bed, Hitler would have found the cash under the sofa cushions to make it happen.

Hitler who truly saw 'no hope of conventional victory', like any politician, would have turned to cheating. And there is no greater I-Win button in WWII than a Rayleigh Taylor column sprouting up over Red Square and The Thames.

You listen to the brainwashing without an eye for critical analysis. Stop it. A mind is too beautiful a thing to bury in media sludge.

>>
At the end of the war, german scientists like Heisenberg were prisoners in an "on wire" house. The britishs recorded their reactions when they learnt the first atomic bombings on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. These recordings are known as The Farm Hall Records or Transcripts, edited by Jeremy Bernstein in the 1990's.
>>

Where did Paul Harteck come up with his 2.62cm radial for cross sections? Why does the entire bunch of them jump down Weitzsacker's throat when he tries to bring up 'photo chemical processess'? WHAT ARE PHOTO CHEMICAL PROCESSES!!?! See, if what they were discussing was so harmless because they were so far out of the loop that they had nothing. Then we should know the exact meaning and derivation (provenance) for everything they said there. Yet the Discovery Channel jump cuts right past that section and 'oh by the way' doesn't mention Diebner at all.

Both X and Gamma radiation are considered 'photons' in some physics applications. If you are using a very high speed centrifuge to induce a bosonic condition in a radio fuel to the point where it evanesces high energy radiation as a function of ground to metastable state change, you are talking about using non fission based energization of a radio fuel which then either transmutes to another material altogether (Gold from Sodium Vapor lamps) or uses some property of mass:gravity fraction to become an Isoton/Isomer based material which is neither solid nor gas liquid nor metal. But somewhere inbetween.

At that point, resonating the material with another burst of charge specific radiation from a Von Arden device gets the plasmoid to roll back to Ground State. As it does so, it dumps a HUGE amount of added gamma/X-ray radiation. Which becomes...heat.

Heat is the thermal in thermonuclear as it causes such enormous compression that you can cause hydrogen to fuse. Fusion makes fast neutrons. Fast neutrons split atoms. And enough fast neutrons, early enough, before the bomb dissembles = maximum yield from micro-fuel concentrates.

Even from U238. How do we know? Because that is what happened with Castle Bravo and look at the mess that made.

Nothing you learned in High School science class works in the 'real world' of high energy physics. There are a couple hundred more elements. There are rules interconnecting the way atomic shell orbits interact. There is charge which is electric but not electrical. There are quadripolar phase states which change how gravity must work in relation to electro magnetism. And Germany, in the 1920s and 30s, despite being a hollow shell of it's Imperial self, was still THE PLACE TO GO to learn what was then called, with no little justification: 'Deutsche Physik'.

You do not have to smack a bunch of radio isotopes together at insane timing problem speeds to get an atomic yield.

>>
It is very interesting. Heisenberg and others could not believe it. They thought it was quite impossible at the time. They had no idea how the Allies did it... they were devastated. After a moment of reflections Heisenberg managed to find the way the american scientists did. But his conclusion was the same that he had in 1941 when asked by german authorities : Germany could not do it in time (before 5 or 6 years).
If Barbarossa would have succeeded, Heisenberg and others would certainly or so have discovered the A bomb first.
>>

Everyone thinks the Germans are too teutonic to be good actors. I say they use the myth of the Vulgar Hun to hide some of the greatest secrets ever known about how WWII was nearly the first atomic war. And why they gave up that leverage to choose to lose, in trade for...a seat at the table? Assurance against further abandonment to Russian overrun? I find it fascinating that they seeded both sides strategic weapons industries but it was the Russians who got the best space tech. And a Russian observer who laughed himself breathless at the 'exploding meat packing plant' that was Ivy Mike.

There were people who were fighting to give Germany the atomic bomb, right up to the bitter end in late April. They succeeded, at a battlefield level, at least twice, on March 4 and March 12. With Hitler in attendance. Clare Werner saw that detonation and lived, at least until the 1990s, giving multiple interviews. So did Luigi Romersa. Yet the only copies of those filmed events I have ever seen DO NOT ever ask the two simplest questions of all:

"Here is a photo of an atom bomb mushroom cloud. Is this what you saw?"

And...

"We would like you to take a Polygraph and VSA, will you do it?"

That is telling. Because it means that both these eye witness testimonies were manipulated in the press and withheld from common knowledge, for nigh on 50 years, even in the GDR where a 1970s(?) inquest was held and several more witnesses interviewed. Where are those transcripts? Where are those polygraphs? This is Stasi controlled East Germany. Don't tell me they didn't keep records.

It's time we admitted something: Hitler had 1-2 big weapons which he had no way to deliver. Zentner 76 was flown out of a bunker near Espelkamp by no less than Charles Lindberg and loaded onto a USN naval convoy which set sail from Cherbourg within days of the end of fighting. There were also a WHOLE BUNCH of baby tacticals which may well have been radiological weapons, given the high gamma doseage of an isomer blast. These weapons looked suspiciously similar to the U.S. first tactical nuke, the Mk.8. Skinny like a gun bomb but without the necessary fuel volume to make it work, even with 1952 engineering. These weapon's transit to field units was held up by SS betrayals from Karl Wolfe and Hans Kammler until Operation Clarion SMASHED utterly the rail distribution network.

And yet, for all the hell they raised, and all the suffering they would undergo as utterly defeated opponents, the Germans were not erased from our cultural history. And it looks, increasingly, like Adolph Hitler was deliberately allowed to escape and survive, at least until 1956, perhaps on U-234 itself.

Why?

The only thing I can say is that the Germans applied those clever minds to one last strategic gambit, with or without Hitler's Flight Capital approval. Send the atomics both East and West and let Germany itself be the divided barrier landscape which neither side could afford to yield and thus both sides had to forgive. At least until they started a war which shattered the Fatherland, forever.

If I am right, boy have we ever been suckered.

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wm
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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by wm » 14 Nov 2018 04:28

According to David Irving (The Rise and Fall of the Luftwaffe, p. 178) in 1942 the entire budget of the German atomic project was 10,000 marks.

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by Tiger B » 14 Nov 2018 12:58

wm wrote:
14 Nov 2018 04:28
According to David Irving (The Rise and Fall of the Luftwaffe, p. 178) in 1942 the entire budget of the German atomic project was 10,000 marks.
First off, Irving counted waaaaay too much on his ability to get close with the German military and industrialist players, simply because he could 'speak at their level'. He did his best to fact check, through the German National Archives but much of these were split and effectively beyond his reach.

So let's look at this from a period personality rather than a hearsay relay. According to Speer, Reichs Armament Minister for the worst two years of the war, after Todt died, there was nothing or he would have known about it. Yet if you check the cross talk: "Oh yeah, Speer was there for the briefing..." comes up from both memory and the minutes of several key meetings, often with Hitler himself in the room, indicating a 'we need a Fuhrer level decision on this...'..

Speer could not have NOT known that there were plans afoot.

So. Either he was fully aware of an active program, and simply lied to CYA protect himself on things like Nuremberg references to test detonations on inhabited city mockups. Or the SS program was a CSAR level effort which flatly locked him out of knowing what he did not need to. Indicating an operant security level far above his paygrade.

The Germans were jumping at shadows by the end of the war, imagining an ENORMOUS internal insurgency as German Resistance, made obvious by the hysteria around Valkyrie. There was indeed such an effort. It is probably among the best kept secrets of the war. Because, IMO, something funny (Reichskommisariat, 'State Within A State', Czechoslovakia) was going on at an international level that bypassed conventional understandings of 'sides' in that conflict. But there was also the Ultra Secret. Which was bombing Hamburg, flying into Russia on Frantic Joe relay missions which opened up targets in Poland and Czechoslovakia and finally, the move to shift all resources, probably no later than winter 1943, which gave the Japanese a working separation plant in Hungnam by late 1944. Effectively evacuating both the Inner and Greater Reich, altogether.

Did you know about any of this either? I didn't think so. But if you look at things from a strategic and operational posture of the war itself and tie it to how we were progressing at the time vs. 'public' level of the KWI effort in particular, constantly being leaked by Paul Rosebaud, you have to wonder what the heck is going on. Are we worried about German effort or are we not? Are the Germans reacting to their Spanish Connection debriefs to accelerate their own program, or are they not? If not, WHY?

And thus we have the preconditions (just after Peenemunde) whereby the Germans locked down their Special Research projects. The ones with a classification label a step beyond 'essential for victory'. With a vengeance. "You will sign whenever a courier brings you a report, you will be the only one in the room who reads it, you will read it all in a single sitting and you will destroy the report or file it's addendums in a secure, two key + combination vault to which only you have access, when you are done." That restricted reading list, coupled with variations in text and context inherent to the numbered copies is how you know who is leaking. Because it is literally from-printer-to-the-receiver single step restricted.

'Himmler's Luftwaffe' would be an excellent means for circulating such reports as they further isolate the courier, in air, from any outside contact or interference.

The only way to back trace through such a system is to have access to the upper tier individuals who ran it (did Kammler die at Espelkamp?) and/or to do a forensic accountancy back trail investigation through the system until you literally reach a "Well, the totals don't match so where did this money go?" threshold by which to go to the man who never went to the front because his position as a gatekeeper for knowledge/resources/papertrail on diverted materials from common depot/distribution chain start points was such that only he knew the address to send X-labeled 'stuff' from shared into a specialist distribution system.

That man survived the war. Because he didn't know enough to be worth shooting. But he DID KNOW what the destination address for a certain number of packages coming from a certain factory in Y city which we discovered was also supplying materials for the public side of the nuclear R&D effort. Because things like Marage Steel and asbestos insulated wiring and 'Haspekerne' along with TONS of Beryllium, Lithium, Thallium, Boron, Scintillance Detectors, and so on simply have no other application and thus have a very limited sourcing list.

Did we do this? We should have. We interviewed over 1,500 German scientists as part of the MIS-Y and CSDIC efforts. We had ALSOS commandos working behind the lines before the Armies went into Germany. We did initial filtering on-site, in Europe, and then brought the ones who knew enough to beg for a way out, to The States as part of Paperclip. But we didn't get the lab people. We got the managerial and factory floor people. And those guys didn't design the components for the bomb. Did not understand the physics packages behind their operation. They were assemblers.

We were clearly looking for /something/ and I have a feeling that that something ended up being a division of resources double cross by the likes of Kammler which provided manpower and materials sufficient to push the R&D of the new superweapons to fruition, on both sides of the Iron Curtain. Why?

It could be, at some Deep State level, that there is a perception of need for super conflict to provide the Frissoned Energy by which society moves forward and that this can best be achieved by polarizing competing political, racial or commercial opposites into a conflicted race towards a physical confrontation and so defeat mass social entropy psychologies.

Much of what happened in WWII in terms of failure to take strategic opportunities is explained by the desire to maintain and even escalate rather than contain and reduce what began as a simple MRC conflict to levels which kept the fervor of R&D at a fever pitch. If you end BIS, if you mine Swedish Ports, if you shut down the electrical grid with attacks on the 10-20 ton dynamos running the electrical rectification centers. WWII stops on a dime.

Again, it's almost as if they were fighting a separate inertia and trying to keep the kettle at a boil with alternate applications of fire hose and flame thrower.

No strategic diplomat, concerned with the horrors of mass casualty civilian losses IN THE MILLIONS, would ever act in this way. Ever.

So strategic diplomacy, as least as we understand it, was not in play. The Great Game appears to be a deliberate act of incitement, escalation and spoilage before withdrawal. Not a coordinated effort to achieve final victory or build SOIs based on 'strength of my enemy becomes mine when he is no longer worried about sourcing his next meal' regional hegemonies. And yet this reality also points to a desire to avoid flatlining societies into some followon, 'Mir Miru' globalist, stable world-state as what we now seem to be facing. That worries me.

I have theories why the destructive-creative model is chosen over incrementalism but nothing that comes together into a coherent, cogent, whole.

What strikes me as unavoidable spillage of The Secret however is the 1941-42 commitment, by Goering, to an 800 million RM Buna plant that didn't make a pound of synthetic rubber. Throughout the war. A plant which was powered by an electric boiler when all such plants in Germany (the world leader, at the time) were run by coal fired, direct, heat and which was sited, oh so conveniently, close to a major river and railheads, the Czech uranium deposits, Auschwitz destructable labor, Pilsen, the Henge, and the Thuringia region of SE Germany. Which was about as far away from Allied airpower as you could get while keeping within Germany proper.

That was a gas diffusion hall sir. And maybe a reactor test site. Because it sounds just like Oakridge/Hannover in terms of site qualifications and costs.

And also because Germany, which again _invented_ the majority of the Uranium Separation methods (Thermal Diffusion, Centrifuge, Sluice) did not have an active team working the simplest, easiest to scale, effort which had been supplying laboratory level experimental quantities of Uranium 235, since the very beginning of their research efforts in the _1920s_.

GD is a plumber's nightmare. It is fraught with hazards relating to leaks and contamination and the general caustic nature of Hex while operating at sub molecular levels of 'sieving gaseous sand' through the equivalnt of a finely tuned racing engine. But once you get it working, it cycles and cycles and cycles. Producing feed stock which can either by ported direct to a weapon, accelerated/energized in a special centrifuge. Or bred in a multizone reactor. The Germans would have seen the scalar efficiencies and had SOMEONE on this project. Even though it was invented by a Jew.

That someone was the SS. Because the basic mechanics of the system were well known and thus low risk and the SS were doing things that required a victory to avoid annihilation. Whereas the rest of the experimental effort was leisurely to the point of uncaring as to outcome

Now, let's discuss Paul Harteck's Epsilon revelation that IG Fahrben had 'discovered' (not method or date but outcome) how to process a couple tons per day of Uranium Ore, smelting and metallizing it, with just a few workers, and how some 1,500 tons of Uranium 'disappeared' from the 3,000+ which had been collectively stolen from various national stockpiles at the opening of the war. This tells you that that amount of ore processed was incredible. Even as it suggests that the 'gasp!' discovering of a splittable atom in 1939 was a well known physics possibility, perhaps for decades, by a national or international consortium (High Cabal) that had also invested in the means to create such materials handling and processing capabilities.

Such that a metal which had limited application as a catalyst in certain chemical conversions and as a glaze in pottery was 'just sitting around' in such quantities, ready to be immediately weaponized.

Looked at sideways, and it becomes obvious that everything is building towards a denoument in whch you can refine, sublimate, separate and render into a weaponized metal a material which is notoriously difficult to handle and machine, even today. The nature of the Atomic Program is thus not what is contained within the German or even American wartime effort. Because the Americans were bumblers that couldn't get the base trigger engineering right (Heisenberg: "Herr Irving, the best physicists never left Germany..." Teller: "Herr Irving...Heisenberg vas right...") and even IGF was not so good as to from-scratch develop all of the supporting industrial techbase within a few short years, with bombs falling on the economy that paid for the effort.

Thus the answer to at least part of your question becomes: "When did they start?"

The nature of the A bomb is one of graduated development likely by a multinational scientific community, across decades. Indicating an industrial SOA progression that was years ahead of the publically acknowledged one and SPECIFICALLY MISSIONIZED towards select (neutron flux production acceleration, fusing, etc.) endgames. Which could only be known by understanding the physical principles, long beforehand.

This is why everything is so vague yet the artifacts alongside the road point to something much larger. Not altogether the how but the when as a function of hyper-compressed development schedules, at the endgame, and the why, as motives behind the effort become more and more obvious in the subsequent Cold War staticism which prevented massive battles in the periphery of Empires as would have certainly happened if Colonialist Europe had not been bombed flat, alongside Germany. And atomic weaponry not halted global resource/market confrontation between the USSR and USA as last superpowers standing.

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by wm » 15 Nov 2018 00:19

As I understand it he got that information from Generalfeldmarschall Erhard Milch and it was confirmed by Minister of Armaments and Munitions Albert Speer.
If it was hidden from people responsible for armaments, top Germany's leaders, one of them a personal friend of Hitler, then who was responsible for the German atomic project? Hitler himself? The ignorant and inept Himmler? Lizard people?

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by Tiger B » 15 Nov 2018 12:44

Did Irving get it from Goering as an explanation for Buna 102? No. Goering was murdered, by his handler, shortly before his execution, so that he could not issue a hangman's testimonial as to how he had saved Europe from nuclear war in the waning days of the Third Reich and was being killed for his kindness.

Did he get it from Diebner, who ran the HWA6 effort for the Army? No. Diebner was...in Egypt? I think it was, building weapons for Nasser.

Did he get it from Von Arden, then head of the East German national science institute, richest man in the GDR, courtesy of his material sciences contributions to the Soviet bomb effort? Clearly not. Yet it was Von Arden and a bevy of other German material/process specialists from the micro-lab experimental efforts in the East, which gave the USSR boosted and/or fusion weapons YEARS before we blew up a cryoplant's worth of Ivy Mike. Such that the Soviets, who started years later than we did, were laughing at our bumbling first steps by 1954. Just as they giggled at our Von-Braun-was-not-the-Rocket-Program stoogery with V-2s in the China Lake desert.

Did Irving get his info from Ohnesorge, whose Postal Ministry paid for Von Arden's work? No. Because Ohnesorge was also in The East.

Did he go to Austria to talk to the top scientists there, the ones who got the trigger for a battlefield weapon to actually work 'for your birthday, Mein Fuhrer' in April 1945, by staging the booster packets in a particular geometry with IR rather than wired initiators? Something we would emulate, a month later, with Schlicke and Alvarez as the drilling of the Trinity core?

No. _The Virus House_ is an excellent tool for understanding what idiots the KWI were playing at being. And also for realizing the limitations of foreign investigative reporting into a national redoubt of hidden interests. But it is also an artifact of a 1967 understanding of world politics and WWII that has more to do with the perception of America's greatness in the Apollo Program era than historical truth about where the tech for that really came from and what it ultimately meant in terms of 'the delivery system but not the warhead?' truths of ballistic missile warfare.

Now let's talk politics and power. Look at the Trump administration. If it was a boat it would be a submarine because there are more leaks than hull. And all of that is because it is built along a conventional power tree of internal trust in a totally corrupted system. Yet if you know politics, you know that it is innately subject to corrosive nature of it's own power because it doesn't believe in anything _but power_.

The Nazi regime was built around a cult of personality which believed in one man's dreams. Yet that man acted as he did to create that architecture of government because he saw how democratic systems which fragmented power rather than delegating it to specific sub-archons of empowered individuals never held any responsibility beyond the next election cycle. Thus he guarded against corruption by setting up lines of power /outside/ the nominal civilian bureaucracy for which ennoblement all loyalty still folded back unto himself because he was set up as a modern day king.

Let the bureaucracy do what it does best: day to day admin. But the real decisions belong to the autocrat.

Yet the only time that we KNOW FOR SURE that Hitler himself was even aware of the atomic effort, in the West, was when Velasco, having made the incredibly dangerous trip from America to Germany, specifically to warn Hitler of advancements in the Manhattan Project (1:1+ criticality) met the Fuhrer in a room with only two other people in it. And having given his report, watched as the Fuhrer nodded non-committally and said: "Yes, yes, this is in line with what we know..."

You have to understand that if I want X done and I don't want Y to know about it, I'm first going to delegate power beyond their oversight. And then (if I have to) I'm going to fund it through 'general use' accounts which send funds to numbered user accounts that only the plenipotentiaries in charge have access to in adjusting the outflow of the distributed allocation of funds. We call this slush funding and it is so effective that the DOD has fought for 30+ years to avoid having a single budgetary accounting for their expenditures. Slush funding is highly illegal in a parliamentary democracy where all manner of anti-deficiency laws are enacted to ensure the legislators have all powers of the purse and agencies must beg, every year, to continue worthwhile projects.

But again, Germany was not subject to such oversight, by the very nature of the Fuhrer Principle, and so were able to build a bomb without anyone outside a CSAR inner clique knowing about it, within the public domain defense acquisition system. Indeed, it is likely that even those who knew they were doing 'something' incredibly important had only a vague reckoning of the applicability of the experimental efforts they were managing as these were themselves set up in individual development rings which overlapped with other rings to further isolate the compartmented efforts. Only those with access to the 'shared space' of the middle ring where these subsystems were integrated would know how each applied to the whole.

Who do you go to for such an effort? The SS.

An organization built around 'my honor is my loyalty' to ONE MAN. An organization with an independent state-within-state playground where they can literally control all industrial efforts by a major defense manufacturing base (Skoda); are in possession of an enormous, burnable, labor force (Jews); and have all the wealth derived, not simply from those whom they have robbed but also that generated by _employing_ said forced labor population, to make everything from ammunition to uniforms as they took over more and more contracts for wartime manufacturing.

The SS are beyond the reach of the civil administration or even the Wehrmacht. They can (and did) cooperate with the likes of the Diebner effort at Gattow and Ohrdruf. And they likely had a 'Catholic Connection', via Austria. By itself that represents BILLIONS MORE in funding and materials access, as well as some of the most brilliant physicists of the period. Again, completely beyond the pale of the known KWI/Reichs Science Council public atomic research group and thus also beyond Paul Rosebaud's ability to betray.

And all of it can be justified by the simple fact that Germany is seeing saboteurs in every shadow. When in fact they are simply the victims of a pervasive COMINT exploit.

The German atomic effort was compartmentalized and disaggregated to harden it against such ferreting as well as the resultant hard kill effects from constant bombing of program resources. Von Arden himself learned how deeply penetrated into the official effort the Allies were, the hard way, when a Mosquito raid flattened the factory he had just placed an order with, as he was stepping out of his car to check on deliveries with it's manager, nearly killing him. He had just spoken with Heisenberg, at his Berlin estate, a few days before and Heisenberg (of course) had said the non-lettered nobody was 'a dabbler' and nothing to be concerned over.

The Western Allies didn't agree. Neither did the Soviets.

But they were too late. The Germans got the bomb, first. And yet did not use it, even to save their country. While we bombed two civilian centers in Japan, in direct contravention of the Laws Of Land Warfare, for no reason at all. Like a bunch of delinquent school boys playing with stolen firecrackers to see how big a boom we could make.

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 28 Nov 2018 00:36

Tiger B wrote:
14 Nov 2018 03:12
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
28 Jun 2018 19:05
ILAN wrote:Germany had the potential to build nuclear weapons but I heard Heisenberg sabotaged it.
1) no
2) no

Read _The Virus House_, _The Brotherhood Of The Bell_ and _The Reich Of The Black Sun_.
Yes, David Irving is a bad, bad, boy. Gives the rest of us conspiracy dabblers a good name. But he has a quote from Speer or Todt that basically runs: 'So they (Gerlach and Heisenberg I think) blow up the nuclear test cell with a steam explosion that could have turned half of Berlin into a radiological swamp, and when I ask them what they needed to get going again, they every meekly said just enough funds to rebuild their mad scientist laboratory. I knew at that moment, that we had the wrong people for the job.'
So what ? Speer launching the stone to Heisenbrg... and ?
Then listen to the other half of that contemptuous German 'Professor = Made Man, all others are mere mortals' as the Ureinenverein lecture....hmmmmm. Diebner? It was either him or Weitzsacker. "Here Diebner, if you bring this before the Heereswaffenamt we will all be against you.' Diebner was discussing, in 1942 or early '43 the fact that they had just figured out how to get more than 1:1 multiplication as a precursor to building a reactor (plutonium producing breeder) rather than an 'engine' (power generation system).

Do you honestly think, with the value assigned to nuclear weapons, their widely briefed power (Heisienberg: 'Oh about the size of a pineapple would finish any city') and the spy data they were getting from Velasco and the Spanish as well as their NSA equivalent, that the SS was not riding herd on the Uranium Club's monthly meetings? What do you think happened when Hitler read the transcripts to that meeting?

He sent everyone back to their universities. Put a new man in charge of the Reichs Science Administration. Named Manfred Von Ardenne his special advisor for nuclear weapons, visiting HIM, not Heisenberg (The White Jew) for all further updates while pushing Harteck in with the SS at Buna 102. And giving Diebner essentially his own command within the Army weapons development complex.

That is a top down executive shake up sir. That is spreading your bets to make sure -something- happens. And that is only the part of the program we know about. In addition, there were at least two SS Generals: Hans Kammler (plenipotentiary for special weapons and delivery systems) and another whose name escapes me but who is included in _TBOTB_, who are running eyes-only select dissemination CSAR (Compartmentalized, Special Access Required) programs in the Czech Republic, Poland and Austria. SS Programs about which we know NOTHING.
Does it mean they succeeded in making the A bomb ? No.
Do not tell me that they didn't try because Heisenberg said so. Heisenberg was a stuck up idiot who could not even get the neutron density formulas right and was made an utter fool of by Paul Harteck at Farm Hall wherein Heisenberg gave the wrong number, Harteck _off the cuff_ gave a correct one which was closer to perfect than ours was (would remain so until the 1960s and the first super computers) and sent an immediate chill up the spines of everyone in the Epsilon listening station because it was clear that, just like with the rockets, we got the factory floor foremen and the upper floor managerial staff while the real people, the ones who did the majority of the work in little labs in The East (Because we had leveled Hamburg to get a single factor producing Bondur) were all in Soviet hands.

Why do you think Otto Skorzeny spent the last month and a half of the war on the wrong side of the lines 'cleaning up' the abandoned facilities and staff in the overrun East? He wasn't getting a tan.

They all failed to develop an A bomb : Heisenberg like others.

>>
The reason why you "heard" that is :

The only excuse Heisenberg gave to himself for his failure not to have built the A bomb first was that he and the german scientists were "honorable antinazi gentlemen who sabotaged the project". But, we know it is a lie.
>>

No. It is not. The only reason we have to believe it is that The Great Dane said so. But what happened after his famous meeting with Heisenberg? That's right, he fled to Sweden and then the U.S., leaving behind his family because 'it was that important'.

SUPPOSEDLY, the only thing he carried with him was a diagram of a box with little rods poking out of it that Heisenberg had given him. But that meant nothing. A reactor? Control rods?!? You leave your family in Denmark, in the tender hands of the Gestapo surveillance for a kindergarten drawing?

Now let's apply a little intelligence. It's not 'a reactor'. It's a gas diffusion plant or a centrifuge cascade. Over which Heisenberg has no say because of the separation of territories by which the Nazis let each Professeren have their little fiefdoms but which he knew about because each Professor had to hold his own in conversations with the other UC members or be seen as slacking. They were his peer oversight review.

So Heisenberg knows from Harteck, who hated his guts for stealing all the uranium intended for low-temp cross section experiments, that the G2/G3 centrifuge effort is going ahead. And maybe even a bit on what Herman Goering has just signed an 800 million Reichmark contract for with the SS at Monawitz for a Buna plant that produces no rubber yet consumes more electricity than all of Berlin. Harteck was part of that as well.

And suddenly he uses his Nobel Laureate Theoritician's Mind to do a little basic math. And puts NUMBERS on that little child's diagram. X% in, Y% percentage out times Z many stage rises (Centrifuges have to be tailored for each level of atomic density in the hex concentrations of U235). Now everyone and anyone who knows basic physics and has kept up with prewar articles on the prospects of atom-splitting weapons, can figure out how fast the Germans can get critical mass for a bomb. Keep in mind, this is happening in 1941.

Neils Bohr, Heisenberg's teacher, takes his little traitorous student's paper and in less than a month is out of Denmark, through Sweden and in the U.S., talking to the Manhattan Project people. Gitterdun or the Germans will have the atomic bomb by...X. Say...1944? July 20th? Maybe even sooner. There are rumors of a high energy thermobaric weapon being tested during the Sevastopol campaign.

Of course, Heisenberg has to remain The Good Nazi and Bohr is gone so he will have a continued access (whether he knows it or not) to The West via Agent Griffon as Paul Rosbaud who just so happened to run a special industry publication dedicated to the doings of all the German physics world. And so had routine access to ALL the scribblings of the German UC members. But the point is that Heisenberg is exposed. He has to be seen to be trying to bring The Great Dane onboard an ill-advised effort to make Aryan Physics go boom. And thus Bohr cuts him no slack and continued to slag him off, long after the war is finished. Because even The White Jew would be in serious trouble if the Germans ever found out he had sabotaged their atomic program.

IMO, his 'sudden lapse' of basic cross section radial maths at Farm Hall is a part of this.
Niels Bohr's drawing is not relevant. He made it in order to frighten the US. Bohr was sure that Heisenberg wd get the bomb soon at the time.
>>
The german authorities decided to stop the atomic bomb project in the end of the year 1941, when they realize the war would be very long and very possibly resulting in a defeat... so they needed all $$$ to go to instant warfare.
>>

Rubbish. The Germans are nothing if not smart engineers. They are also completely AR about detail scheduling. If Hitler wasn't high on his own success he would have dumped megabucks into SAMs and Jets. And by that act alone, have increased the duration of the war by 50%. There were 4 million household servants still on the tax roles in _AUTUMN 1944_!! Do not tell me that Fritz Todt or Albert Speer couldn't figure out how to spin the wheels faster.
This is written in the deutschen archives. Read Mark Walker rather than Irving imho !
>>
Scientists like Heisenberg were asked : 1) how much would it cost to realize the atomic bomb 2) how long would it be ? The answers to theses 2 questions were the same : it was too expensive and too long (more than one year, Heisenberg thought about 5 or 6 years).


So indeed the german atomic bomb was buried in late 1941 because of the failure of Barbarossa.
>>

Hitler had the two main (Jewish controlled) banks of Germany loaning each other money from 1933 onwards. Money which neither had assets to cover. Money which made the German Miracle something of a 'Miracle the checks didn't start bouncing sooner!' fraud. If Heisenberg had told Hitler or Bormann that he needed 100,000 EM separators and 800,00 laborers to pick up microgram concentrations of U235 from the tailings bed, Hitler would have found the cash under the sofa cushions to make it happen.

Hitler who truly saw 'no hope of conventional victory', like any politician, would have turned to cheating. And there is no greater I-Win button in WWII than a Rayleigh Taylor column sprouting up over Red Square and The Thames.
This is written in the archives. Heisenberg, who was not an idiot, estimated the project would need too much money for too much time...
You listen to the brainwashing without an eye for critical analysis. Stop it. A mind is too beautiful a thing to bury in media sludge.
This is valuable for everyone.
>>
At the end of the war, german scientists like Heisenberg were prisoners in an "on wire" house. The britishs recorded their reactions when they learnt the first atomic bombings on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. These recordings are known as The Farm Hall Records or Transcripts, edited by Jeremy Bernstein in the 1990's.
>>

Where did Paul Harteck come up with his 2.62cm radial for cross sections? Why does the entire bunch of them jump down Weitzsacker's throat when he tries to bring up 'photo chemical processess'? WHAT ARE PHOTO CHEMICAL PROCESSES!!?! See, if what they were discussing was so harmless because they were so far out of the loop that they had nothing. Then we should know the exact meaning and derivation (provenance) for everything they said there. Yet the Discovery Channel jump cuts right past that section and 'oh by the way' doesn't mention Diebner at all.

Both X and Gamma radiation are considered 'photons' in some physics applications. If you are using a very high speed centrifuge to induce a bosonic condition in a radio fuel to the point where it evanesces high energy radiation as a function of ground to metastable state change, you are talking about using non fission based energization of a radio fuel which then either transmutes to another material altogether (Gold from Sodium Vapor lamps) or uses some property of mass:gravity fraction to become an Isoton/Isomer based material which is neither solid nor gas liquid nor metal. But somewhere inbetween.

At that point, resonating the material with another burst of charge specific radiation from a Von Arden device gets the plasmoid to roll back to Ground State. As it does so, it dumps a HUGE amount of added gamma/X-ray radiation. Which becomes...heat.

Heat is the thermal in thermonuclear as it causes such enormous compression that you can cause hydrogen to fuse. Fusion makes fast neutrons. Fast neutrons split atoms. And enough fast neutrons, early enough, before the bomb dissembles = maximum yield from micro-fuel concentrates.

Even from U238. How do we know? Because that is what happened with Castle Bravo and look at the mess that made.

Nothing you learned in High School science class works in the 'real world' of high energy physics. There are a couple hundred more elements. There are rules interconnecting the way atomic shell orbits interact. There is charge which is electric but not electrical. There are quadripolar phase states which change how gravity must work in relation to electro magnetism. And Germany, in the 1920s and 30s, despite being a hollow shell of it's Imperial self, was still THE PLACE TO GO to learn what was then called, with no little justification: 'Deutsche Physik'.

You do not have to smack a bunch of radio isotopes together at insane timing problem speeds to get an atomic yield.

>>
It is very interesting. Heisenberg and others could not believe it. They thought it was quite impossible at the time. They had no idea how the Allies did it... they were devastated. After a moment of reflections Heisenberg managed to find the way the american scientists did. But his conclusion was the same that he had in 1941 when asked by german authorities : Germany could not do it in time (before 5 or 6 years).
If Barbarossa would have succeeded, Heisenberg and others would certainly or so have discovered the A bomb first.
>>

Everyone thinks the Germans are too teutonic to be good actors. I say they use the myth of the Vulgar Hun to hide some of the greatest secrets ever known about how WWII was nearly the first atomic war. And why they gave up that leverage to choose to lose, in trade for...a seat at the table? Assurance against further abandonment to Russian overrun? I find it fascinating that they seeded both sides strategic weapons industries but it was the Russians who got the best space tech. And a Russian observer who laughed himself breathless at the 'exploding meat packing plant' that was Ivy Mike.

There were people who were fighting to give Germany the atomic bomb, right up to the bitter end in late April. They succeeded, at a battlefield level, at least twice, on March 4 and March 12. With Hitler in attendance. Clare Werner saw that detonation and lived, at least until the 1990s, giving multiple interviews. So did Luigi Romersa. Yet the only copies of those filmed events I have ever seen DO NOT ever ask the two simplest questions of all:

"Here is a photo of an atom bomb mushroom cloud. Is this what you saw?"

And...

"We would like you to take a Polygraph and VSA, will you do it?"

That is telling. Because it means that both these eye witness testimonies were manipulated in the press and withheld from common knowledge, for nigh on 50 years, even in the GDR where a 1970s(?) inquest was held and several more witnesses interviewed. Where are those transcripts? Where are those polygraphs? This is Stasi controlled East Germany. Don't tell me they didn't keep records.

It's time we admitted something: Hitler had 1-2 big weapons which he had no way to deliver. Zentner 76 was flown out of a bunker near Espelkamp by no less than Charles Lindberg and loaded onto a USN naval convoy which set sail from Cherbourg within days of the end of fighting. There were also a WHOLE BUNCH of baby tacticals which may well have been radiological weapons, given the high gamma doseage of an isomer blast. These weapons looked suspiciously similar to the U.S. first tactical nuke, the Mk.8. Skinny like a gun bomb but without the necessary fuel volume to make it work, even with 1952 engineering. These weapon's transit to field units was held up by SS betrayals from Karl Wolfe and Hans Kammler until Operation Clarion SMASHED utterly the rail distribution network.

And yet, for all the hell they raised, and all the suffering they would undergo as utterly defeated opponents, the Germans were not erased from our cultural history. And it looks, increasingly, like Adolph Hitler was deliberately allowed to escape and survive, at least until 1956, perhaps on U-234 itself.

Why?

The only thing I can say is that the Germans applied those clever minds to one last strategic gambit, with or without Hitler's Flight Capital approval. Send the atomics both East and West and let Germany itself be the divided barrier landscape which neither side could afford to yield and thus both sides had to forgive. At least until they started a war which shattered the Fatherland, forever.

If I am right, boy have we ever been suckered.
So, you really think Little Boy and Fat Man were german A bombs ?
Come on !
You cant rely on Irving's writings.... neither on Romersa or Clare Werner... This is not serious.

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by MLW » 28 Nov 2018 12:58

Tiger B wrote:
15 Nov 2018 12:44
Goering was murdered, by his handler, shortly before his execution, so that he could not issue a hangman's testimonial as to how he had saved Europe from nuclear war in the waning days of the Third Reich and was being killed for his kindness.
You have got to be kidding.

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by wm » 28 Nov 2018 14:19

What do you mean by "Hitler ... had no way to deliver".

He had the six engine Me 323 and the invisible to radars Me 321 Gigant.
Both could deliver a 20-ton bomb to London in a suicidal mission.
And he had pilots of his kamikaze-like Leonidas Squadron already at his disposal.

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by T. A. Gardner » 30 Nov 2018 23:27

wm wrote:
28 Nov 2018 14:19
What do you mean by "Hitler ... had no way to deliver".

He had the six engine Me 323 and the invisible to radars Me 321 Gigant.
Both could deliver a 20-ton bomb to London in a suicidal mission.
And he had pilots of his kamikaze-like Leonidas Squadron already at his disposal.
The Me 321 glider and powered 323 are not "invisible to radar." They would show up just like any other large aircraft as their airframe is made from tubular steel. That this is covered with wood and fabric does nothing to prevent radar from reflecting off the plane. Given the very low ceiling and speed of these aircraft they'd be easily intercepted or shot down by AA fire.

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by AllenM » 08 Dec 2018 23:47

The German atomic program continued until 1945. From an ALSOS Mission report dated 2 May 1945.

"SUBJECT: Gerlach Summary of Nuclear Reports

"1. A new edition of "Forschungsberichte" was planned containing articles on successful pile experiments. Five articles in all were contemplated, and Gerlach wrote an introductory summary. We found this summary in rough pencilled form, which gives the status of the project as of January 1945.
2. The first page of the summary contains the following...

"1942 Kugelschalen Versuch, Pulver, Al Behälter, D2O Döpel-Heisenberg (L II)

Mitte 1943 CTR, G II (Diebner-Hartwig-Berkei),
U-Metall + scheweres Eis

Ende 1944

3. Abbreviations in the above have the following significance:

L II Leipzig II
CTR Chem. technische Reichsanstalt
G II Gottow II
G III Gottow III
BV Berlin Versuch"

Source: Atomversuche in Deutschland by Gunther Nägel, page 335

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by Rob Stuart » 24 Dec 2018 09:47

williamjpellas wrote:
28 Jul 2018 06:04
Histan, the biggest reason why I am not discounting the Hamburg raid out of hand is that it appears to me there probably was an organized effort by the Allies to disrupt the transfer of technology and materiel between Germany and Japan---especially the cargoes related to the nuclear weapons R&D that was being done in both of those nations during the war. If at least some of the "Yanagi" submarine missions were attacked specifically because they were known or suspected to be connected to any of the various Axis atomic bomb "black projects", then why not nuclear-related industrial infrastructure, as well? Certainly the Norsk Hydro plant in Norway was attacked multiple times specifically because of its potential use in building Nazi nuclear weapons. The destruction of the Riken Institute north of Tokyo in the Great Fire Raid of March 1945 appears to have been a fortunate coincidence rather than the result of a specific attack, but it would not shock me if there were some spooks in the US high command who had in mind to destroy the Riken and make it look like collateral damage.
The Allies aimed to sink every Axis submarine and surface ship travelling between Japan and Europe, regardless of its cargo. If some of those vessels were "connected to any of the various Axis atomic bomb "black projects"", that proves nothing, because those same vessels would have been targets even if they were not so connected. Histan is absolutely correct when he says:
The fact that this particular factory was in Hamburg and that there was a bomber raid in Hamburg are not related. There is no cause and effect just the facts that the factory was in Hamburg and Hamburg was bombed

If the factory had been in Essen then the Bomber Command raids on Essen would have been attributed, by those who peddle this kind of nonsense, to the fact that this factory was in Essen.

Similarly for Cologne or any other city attacked by Bomber Command or the USAAF.
The same logic applies to your maritime shipments. If a U-boat carrying nuclear material to Japan were sunk at some point, that fact that it was sunk does not prove that the presence of the nuclear material was the reason it was attacked. The Allies attacked every U-boat they could, just as the RAF attacked every German industrial city.

The Hamburg raids were in August 1943. That same month Bomber Command launched a precision raid against the Peenemunde rocket development station and the USAAF launched precision attacks on the fighter assembly plant at Regensburg and the ball-bearing factories of Schweinfurt. If a specific target in Hamburg was as important as you claim, and the Allies knew of its existence, then a precision raid against that factory would have been launched. The RAF knew that area bombing of a city, or a portion of a city, could not be counted on to destroy every important target located there.

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by williamjpellas » 25 Dec 2018 03:46

AllenM wrote:
08 Dec 2018 23:47
The German atomic program continued until 1945. From an ALSOS Mission report dated 2 May 1945.

"SUBJECT: Gerlach Summary of Nuclear Reports

"1. A new edition of "Forschungsberichte" was planned containing articles on successful pile experiments. Five articles in all were contemplated, and Gerlach wrote an introductory summary. We found this summary in rough pencilled form, which gives the status of the project as of January 1945.
2. The first page of the summary contains the following...

"1942 Kugelschalen Versuch, Pulver, Al Behälter, D2O Döpel-Heisenberg (L II)

Mitte 1943 CTR, G II (Diebner-Hartwig-Berkei),
U-Metall + scheweres Eis

Ende 1944

3. Abbreviations in the above have the following significance:

L II Leipzig II
CTR Chem. technische Reichsanstalt
G II Gottow II
G III Gottow III
BV Berlin Versuch"

Source: Atomversuche in Deutschland by Gunther Nägel, page 335
Allen, that is an excellent source you just quoted. I have never seen that particular ALSOS report. Do you have a citation for it in the US National Archives (NARA)? The "G Papers" are cited here. Apparently the ALSOS mission captured them sometime in 1945? As you may know, they are called "G Papers" because they summarize Diebner's work for the heereswaffenamt (German Army Weapons Bureau) near the town of Gottow. This was in a heavily wooded area south of Berlin, where the army maintained a weapons proving ground.

It is my understanding---and I don't recall just now where I saw this---that the G Papers were returned to Germany sometime in the 1970s, and that they now reside in the Bundesarchiv, which is the official German Army records archive.

I knew that Gerlach was part of the Army project along with Diebner, but this is the most prominent mention of him that I have seen to date in any of the primary source documents I have read.
Last edited by williamjpellas on 25 Dec 2018 04:25, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by williamjpellas » 25 Dec 2018 04:15

wm wrote:
28 Nov 2018 14:19
What do you mean by "Hitler ... had no way to deliver".

He had the six engine Me 323 and the invisible to radars Me 321 Gigant.
Both could deliver a 20-ton bomb to London in a suicidal mission.
And he had pilots of his kamikaze-like Leonidas Squadron already at his disposal.
I have never read in any source that the Gigant was "invisible to radars".

20 tons would be 40,000 pounds. According to Henry Stevens' book Hitler's Suppressed and Still Secret Weapons, Science, and Technology, the 1944 test at Rugen Island described by Romersma and Zinsser was of some kind of "disintegration bomb"---Romersma said that's what the Germans called it---and that there were two variants. One of these weighed around 20,000 pounds and the other, 30,000. (Stevens cites Romersma's 1980s article in the Italian journal Defensa as the source for this information.) This kind of heavy bombload was completely beyond the ability of any Second World War German aircraft to carry, much less deliver on target, other than, perhaps, the Gigant transport aircraft, which you mention here. But the Gigant was slow and would surely have been easily spotted and shot down by the RAF had a nuclear attack mission been attempted, and this is assuming that additional bombs existed after the October 1944 test and before Germany's May 1945 surrender. It is possible that the prototype was the only one that was ever completed.

But assuming against all odds that a Gigant had been able to dump another of the whatever-it-was weapons on a major British city, it would not have altered the outcome of the war. Well, other than to trigger Allied retaliation that would have been exponentially worse than anything the Third Reich could have done other than massed attacks with nerve gas---and even then the sheer size of Britain's enormous anthrax bomb stockpile would have dwarfed the Third Reich's WMD capacity.

Based on everything I have seen and read on this subject to date, it looks to me like the Germans did have "the bomb"---that is, that they successfully developed and tested what appear to have been at least two different types of nuclear weapon---but only in prototype form. If additional units beyond these were manufactured, then there must have been some other strategic and/or political calculation that prevented their actual use in combat. One of these seems to have been that the Rugen type of bomb was simply too big, heavy, and unwieldy, assuming for the moment that Stevens' information is correct. Another may be that the Germans were deterred from using them by the Allied WMD, Britain's bioweapon, which was produced in concert with the United States by the top secret Project Vegetarian. Along with this there may have been political maneuvering and negotiations with certain elements of Nazi society and officialdom. We may never know for certain.

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by williamjpellas » 25 Dec 2018 05:31

Yes, David Irving is a bad, bad, boy. Gives the rest of us conspiracy dabblers a good name. But he has a quote from Speer or Todt that basically runs: 'So they (Gerlach and Heisenberg I think) blow up the nuclear test cell with a steam explosion that could have turned half of Berlin into a radiological swamp, and when I ask them what they needed to get going again, they every meekly said just enough funds to rebuild their mad scientist laboratory. I knew at that moment, that we had the wrong people for the job.'

>>>I have encountered one other mention of an apparent nuclear accident involving some kind of apparatus that Heisenberg was said to have constructed during the war years. This was essentially a steel kettle that contained alternating layers of uranium-238 (perhaps U-238 yellowcake?) and paraffin wax. Going down the center of the kettle was a column filled with radium. The idea was for the neutrons emitted by the radium to irradiate that U-238, thereby slowing transmuting at least some of it into plutonium-239 (the Germans of that era called it "element 94" or "Eka Osmium"). In other words it was essentially a low tech, slow motion reactor meant to produce fissile material for use in bombs. A quick websearch did not produce the same diagram I saw some years ago. If I can find it again I will post it here, in this thread. Perhaps someone else has seen it and can put it up.<<<

Then listen to the other half of that contemptuous German 'Professor = Made Man, all others are mere mortals' as the Ureinenverein lecture....hmmmmm. Diebner? It was either him or Weitzsacker. "Here Diebner, if you bring this before the Heereswaffenamt we will all be against you.' Diebner was discussing, in 1942 or early '43 the fact that they had just figured out how to get more than 1:1 multiplication as a precursor to building a reactor (plutonium producing breeder) rather than an 'engine' (power generation system).

>>>The "we will all be against you" quote is mentioned in a European-produced documentary from about 12 - 15 years ago. I have never been clear as to why the others might have said this to Diebner, unless it was part of the intense personal and professional rivalry and mutual dislike between Heisenberg and Diebner while both were in residence at the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute. This grew so acrimonious that Diebner left the KWI to go to work on the heereswaffenamt's nuclear weapons project, under the direction of Drs. Erich Schumann and Walter Gerlach.<<<

Do you honestly think, with the value assigned to nuclear weapons, their widely briefed power (Heisienberg: 'Oh about the size of a pineapple would finish any city') and the spy data they were getting from Velasco and the Spanish as well as their NSA equivalent, that the SS was not riding herd on the Uranium Club's monthly meetings? What do you think happened when Hitler read the transcripts to that meeting?

>>>The SS was certainly involved in some capacity with German nuclear weapons R&D, but it was my understanding that this didn't become pronounced until late in the war, specifically following the unsuccessful bomb plot against Hitler in 1944. Do you have anything I can read on this? I know there was the SS secret weapons empire run by Kammler, but thought it was mostly in the form of a last ditch crash project.<<<

He sent everyone back to their universities. Put a new man in charge of the Reichs Science Administration. Named Manfred Von Ardenne his special advisor for nuclear weapons, visiting HIM, not Heisenberg (The White Jew) for all further updates while pushing Harteck in with the SS at Buna 102. And giving Diebner essentially his own command within the Army weapons development complex.

>>>Yes, von Ardenne, Diebner, Harteck, and Schumann were the most important German nuclear weapons scientists during the war. Possibly also Gerlach in some capacity. Definitely not Heisenberg or most of his circle at the KWI, though it has emerged in more recent years that the KWI itself did more and got further than had previously been acknowledged in the mainstream history of the war.<<<

That is a top down executive shake up sir. That is spreading your bets to make sure -something- happens. And that is only the part of the program we know about. In addition, there were at least two SS Generals: Hans Kammler (plenipotentiary for special weapons and delivery systems) and another whose name escapes me but who is included in _TBOTB_, who are running eyes-only select dissemination CSAR (Compartmentalized, Special Access Required) programs in the Czech Republic, Poland and Austria. SS Programs about which we know NOTHING.

>>>Was the second General named Seuffert? That's a name I have seen that seems to have popped up out of nowhere. He is said to have been associated with the Ohrdurf test detonations in March 1945. The mention I found of him, however, calls him "Dr" Seuffert rather than giving him a military rank.<<<

Do not tell me that they didn't try because Heisenberg said so. Heisenberg was a stuck up idiot who could not even get the neutron density formulas right and was made an utter fool of by Paul Harteck at Farm Hall wherein Heisenberg gave the wrong number, Harteck _off the cuff_ gave a correct one which was closer to perfect than ours was (would remain so until the 1960s and the first super computers) and sent an immediate chill up the spines of everyone in the Epsilon listening station because it was clear that, just like with the rockets, we got the factory floor foremen and the upper floor managerial staff while the real people, the ones who did the majority of the work in little labs in The East (Because we had leveled Hamburg to get a single factor producing Bondur) were all in Soviet hands.[i]

>>>Other than the bit about Hamburg, I agree with the gist of this passage, though I would not say that Heisenberg was an idiot. If you read Karlsch and his account of the Harnack Haus conference which I believe was in 1942 though it might have been 1943, you find Heisenberg discussing all three possible routes to a basic fission bomb that were generally known at that time. That is, he discusses all three of the most likely "bomb fuels": U-235, P-239, and U-233. This is found in a Red Army "eyes only" level intelligence document which Karlsch dug out of Kremlin archives.<<<

[i]Why do you think Otto Skorzeny spent the last month and a half of the war on the wrong side of the lines 'cleaning up' the abandoned facilities and staff in the overrun East? He wasn't getting a tan.


>>>Ah, okay. I wondered who it was that was doing the dirty work of killing pretty much everyone who might have known what was going on at war's end in Germany's nuclear weapons facilities. Skorzeny and his crew would have been the logical choice.<<<

The reason why you "heard" that is :

The only excuse Heisenberg gave to himself for his failure not to have built the A bomb first was that he and the german scientists were "honorable antinazi gentlemen who sabotaged the project". But, we know it is a lie.


>>>Agreed. Heisenberg definitely did not try to sabotage the German bomb effort.<<<

No. It is not. The only reason we have to believe it is that The Great Dane said so. But what happened after his famous meeting with Heisenberg? That's right, he fled to Sweden and then the U.S., leaving behind his family because 'it was that important'.

SUPPOSEDLY, the only thing he carried with him was a diagram of a box with little rods poking out of it that Heisenberg had given him. But that meant nothing. A reactor? Control rods?!? You leave your family in Denmark, in the tender hands of the Gestapo surveillance for a kindergarten drawing?

Now let's apply a little intelligence. It's not 'a reactor'. It's a gas diffusion plant or a centrifuge cascade. Over which Heisenberg has no say because of the separation of territories by which the Nazis let each Professeren have their little fiefdoms but which he knew about because each Professor had to hold his own in conversations with the other UC members or be seen as slacking. They were his peer oversight review.

So Heisenberg knows from Harteck, who hated his guts for stealing all the uranium intended for low-temp cross section experiments, that the G2/G3 centrifuge effort is going ahead. And maybe even a bit on what Herman Goering has just signed an 800 million Reichmark contract for with the SS at Monawitz for a Buna plant that produces no rubber yet consumes more electricity than all of Berlin. Harteck was part of that as well.

And suddenly he uses his Nobel Laureate Theoritician's Mind to do a little basic math. And puts NUMBERS on that little child's diagram. X% in, Y% percentage out times Z many stage rises (Centrifuges have to be tailored for each level of atomic density in the hex concentrations of U235). Now everyone and anyone who knows basic physics and has kept up with prewar articles on the prospects of atom-splitting weapons, can figure out how fast the Germans can get critical mass for a bomb. Keep in mind, this is happening in 1941.

Neils Bohr, Heisenberg's teacher, takes his little traitorous student's paper and in less than a month is out of Denmark, through Sweden and in the U.S., talking to the Manhattan Project people. Gitterdun or the Germans will have the atomic bomb by...X. Say...1944? July 20th? Maybe even sooner. There are rumors of a high energy thermobaric weapon being tested during the Sevastopol campaign.


>>>The thermobaric weapon may be what a Japanese attache officer was referring to in an SRA MAGIC intercept which has been cited in this thread. But other parts of that document are unequivocally about nuclear weapons in some form or configuration.<<<

Of course, Heisenberg has to remain The Good Nazi and Bohr is gone so he will have a continued access (whether he knows it or not) to The West via Agent Griffon as Paul Rosbaud who just so happened to run a special industry publication dedicated to the doings of all the German physics world. And so had routine access to ALL the scribblings of the German UC members. But the point is that Heisenberg is exposed. He has to be seen to be trying to bring The Great Dane onboard an ill-advised effort to make Aryan Physics go boom. And thus Bohr cuts him no slack and continued to slag him off, long after the war is finished. Because even The White Jew would be in serious trouble if the Germans ever found out he had sabotaged their atomic program.

IMO, his 'sudden lapse' of basic cross section radial maths at Farm Hall is a part of this.


>>>Again I agree. Gerlach and especially Diebner generally stayed quiet while at Farm Hall. Diebner tells Heisenberg that he believes the place is bugged. Heisenberg laughs him off---or appears to---but it is very difficult to believe Heisenberg's seemingly incompetent level of nuclear weapons physics in light of what we now know was his level of knowledge during the war years. Even granting the distinction between a theoretical physicist like Heisenberg and a more practical experimental physicist like Diebner, the logical conclusion must surely be that Heisenberg was deliberately trying to throw the Allies off the scent with some of his statements at Farm Hall. In any case he was certainly not any kind of passive resistance leader.<<<

The german authorities decided to stop the atomic bomb project in the end of the year 1941, when they realize the war would be very long and very possibly resulting in a defeat... so they needed all $$$ to go to instant warfare.

Rubbish. The Germans are nothing if not smart engineers. They are also completely AR about detail scheduling. If Hitler wasn't high on his own success he would have dumped megabucks into SAMs and Jets. And by that act alone, have increased the duration of the war by 50%. There were 4 million household servants still on the tax roles in _AUTUMN 1944_!! Do not tell me that Fritz Todt or Albert Speer couldn't figure out how to spin the wheels faster.

>>
Scientists like Heisenberg were asked : 1) how much would it cost to realize the atomic bomb 2) how long would it be ? The answers to theses 2 questions were the same : it was too expensive and too long (more than one year, Heisenberg thought about 5 or 6 years).


So indeed the german atomic bomb was buried in late 1941 because of the failure of Barbarossa.


>>>The official German war industry, personified by Albert Speer, did indeed apparently decide against a full scale atomic bomb effort that would have been more along the lines of the Manhattan Project. This was at a conference in 1942 that was attended by nearly all of the big name German nuclear scientists, including military scientists from the Army and the Kriegsmarine. That's according to the US 9th Army Air Force intelligence document “Investigations, Research, Developments and Practical Use of the German Atomic Bomb”. But black projects continued. These included, at minimum, the heereswaffenamt effort and the Ohnesorge - von Ardenne organization. Karlsch believes the 1944 test was the result of Kriegsmarine work, but I have not seen his sources for this conclusion and the 9th USAAF document is the only primary source piece I have ever viewed that even mentions the wartime German Navy in the context of nuclear research at all.<<<

Hitler had the two main (Jewish controlled) banks of Germany loaning each other money from 1933 onwards. Money which neither had assets to cover. Money which made the German Miracle something of a 'Miracle the checks didn't start bouncing sooner!' fraud. If Heisenberg had told Hitler or Bormann that he needed 100,000 EM separators and 800,00 laborers to pick up microgram concentrations of U235 from the tailings bed, Hitler would have found the cash under the sofa cushions to make it happen.

Hitler who truly saw 'no hope of conventional victory', like any politician, would have turned to cheating. And there is no greater I-Win button in WWII than a Rayleigh Taylor column sprouting up over Red Square and The Thames.

You listen to the brainwashing without an eye for critical analysis. Stop it. A mind is too beautiful a thing to bury in media sludge.

>>
At the end of the war, german scientists like Heisenberg were prisoners in an "on wire" house. The britishs recorded their reactions when they learnt the first atomic bombings on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. These recordings are known as The Farm Hall Records or Transcripts, edited by Jeremy Bernstein in the 1990's.
>>

Where did Paul Harteck come up with his 2.62cm radial for cross sections? Why does the entire bunch of them jump down Weitzsacker's throat when he tries to bring up 'photo chemical processess'? WHAT ARE PHOTO CHEMICAL PROCESSES!!?! See, if what they were discussing was so harmless because they were so far out of the loop that they had nothing. Then we should know the exact meaning and derivation (provenance) for everything they said there. Yet the Discovery Channel jump cuts right past that section and 'oh by the way' doesn't mention Diebner at all.

Both X and Gamma radiation are considered 'photons' in some physics applications. If you are using a very high speed centrifuge to induce a bosonic condition in a radio fuel to the point where it evanesces high energy radiation as a function of ground to metastable state change, you are talking about using non fission based energization of a radio fuel which then either transmutes to another material altogether (Gold from Sodium Vapor lamps) or uses some property of mass:gravity fraction to become an Isoton/Isomer based material which is neither solid nor gas liquid nor metal. But somewhere inbetween.

At that point, resonating the material with another burst of charge specific radiation from a Von Arden device gets the plasmoid to roll back to Ground State. As it does so, it dumps a HUGE amount of added gamma/X-ray radiation. Which becomes...heat.

Heat is the thermal in thermonuclear as it causes such enormous compression that you can cause hydrogen to fuse. Fusion makes fast neutrons. Fast neutrons split atoms. And enough fast neutrons, early enough, before the bomb dissembles = maximum yield from micro-fuel concentrates.

Even from U238. How do we know? Because that is what happened with Castle Bravo and look at the mess that made.



>>>A "plasmoid" is mentioned in some sources in connection with the powerful SS Project Hexenkessel test detonations in the Starnberger See region in southern Germany, near the Austrian border. I have never been clear on exactly what is meant by this term. Can you explain also what you mean by "micro-fuel concentrates". Do you mean fissile material(s), or something else? It certainly looks like you are talking in general about an approach to weapons physics that is closer to fusion than to basic atomic fission. Or at least, that you are describing a process that is essentially the reverse of what we know today as the "Teller - Ulam" bomb configuration. In that type of a weapon, a fission "primary" goes off first, which with some help from other factors creates the conditions necessary to ignite the "secondary" fusion reaction. You seem to be describing the WWII German approach as being to first provoke fusion by way of a plasmoid "roll(ing) back to Ground State...dump(ing) a HUGE amount of added gamma/X-ray radiation. Which becomes...heat...(which) can cause hydrogen to fuse. Fusion makes fast neutrons. Fast neutrons split atoms." Which then give you maximum yield from "micro-fuel concentrates". In other words it is the fusion which provides the heat and the neutrons to provoke fission, rather than the other way around.

Do I understand you correctly here?<<<

Nothing you learned in High School science class works in the 'real world' of high energy physics. There are a couple hundred more elements. There are rules interconnecting the way atomic shell orbits interact. There is charge which is electric but not electrical. There are quadripolar phase states which change how gravity must work in relation to electro magnetism. And Germany, in the 1920s and 30s, despite being a hollow shell of it's Imperial self, was still THE PLACE TO GO to learn what was then called, with no little justification: 'Deutsche Physik'.

You do not have to smack a bunch of radio isotopes together at insane timing problem speeds to get an atomic yield.


>>>I can well believe this, particularly the bolded part, but want to see more documentation. There are certainly additional elements beyond the current standard periodic table, including naturally occurring "superdense elements" such as unbibium. Unbibium is found in deposits of thorium-232. The Germans were certainly interested in thorium during the war. We know they were also exploring weapons concepts related to "highly energetic" superdense compounds such as red mercury. Perhaps their interest in thorium was also driven by their research into superdense elements?<<<

>>
It is very interesting. Heisenberg and others could not believe it. They thought it was quite impossible at the time. They had no idea how the Allies did it... they were devastated. After a moment of reflections Heisenberg managed to find the way the american scientists did. But his conclusion was the same that he had in 1941 when asked by german authorities : Germany could not do it in time (before 5 or 6 years).
If Barbarossa would have succeeded, Heisenberg and others would certainly or so have discovered the A bomb first.
>>

Everyone thinks the Germans are too teutonic to be good actors. I say they use the myth of the Vulgar Hun to hide some of the greatest secrets ever known about how WWII was nearly the first atomic war. And why they gave up that leverage to choose to lose, in trade for...a seat at the table? Assurance against further abandonment to Russian overrun? I find it fascinating that they seeded both sides strategic weapons industries but it was the Russians who got the best space tech. And a Russian observer who laughed himself breathless at the 'exploding meat packing plant' that was Ivy Mike.

There were people who were fighting to give Germany the atomic bomb, right up to the bitter end in late April. They succeeded, at a battlefield level, at least twice, on March 4 and March 12. With Hitler in attendance. Clare Werner saw that detonation and lived, at least until the 1990s, giving multiple interviews. So did Luigi Romersa. Yet the only copies of those filmed events I have ever seen DO NOT ever ask the two simplest questions of all:

"Here is a photo of an atom bomb mushroom cloud. Is this what you saw?"

And...

"We would like you to take a Polygraph and VSA, will you do it?"

That is telling. Because it means that both these eye witness testimonies were manipulated in the press and withheld from common knowledge, for nigh on 50 years, even in the GDR where a 1970s(?) inquest was held and several more witnesses interviewed. Where are those transcripts? Where are those polygraphs? This is Stasi controlled East Germany. Don't tell me they didn't keep records.


>>>The Stasi investigation was done sometime during the 1960s. To date I have seen the name of one (1) eyewitness to the 1945 Ohrdurf tests who was interviewed or interrogated by the Stasi: Heinz Wachsmut, who was a plumber in postwar East Germany. During the war years he was working at the Ohrdurf concentration camp in some capacity.<<<

It's time we admitted something: Hitler had 1-2 big weapons which he had no way to deliver. Zentner 76 was flown out of a bunker near Espelkamp by no less than Charles Lindberg and loaded onto a USN naval convoy which set sail from Cherbourg within days of the end of fighting. There were also a WHOLE BUNCH of baby tacticals which may well have been radiological weapons, given the high gamma doseage of an isomer blast. These weapons looked suspiciously similar to the U.S. first tactical nuke, the Mk.8. Skinny like a gun bomb but without the necessary fuel volume to make it work, even with 1952 engineering. These weapon's transit to field units was held up by SS betrayals from Karl Wolfe and Hans Kammler until Operation Clarion SMASHED utterly the rail distribution network.

>>>I have seen references to a supposed USAAF 9th Air Force intelligence document that supposedly mentions the 76 Zentner bomb. It would not shock me if Lindbergh was actually involved with whatever was captured near Espelkamp, because he was a very busy secret agent who was active throughout WWII in both the Pacific and European theaters. He spoke German fluently and had two or three German mistresses and children by all of them. But I have yet to view any actual primary source papers about this alleged-to-exist German weapon. At this point I do not believe, as some conspiracy theorists do, that the Little Boy bomb was actually the 76 Zentner weapon.<<<

And yet, for all the hell they raised, and all the suffering they would undergo as utterly defeated opponents, the Germans were not erased from our cultural history. And it looks, increasingly, like Adolph Hitler was deliberately allowed to escape and survive, at least until 1956, perhaps on U-234 itself.

Why?

The only thing I can say is that the Germans applied those clever minds to one last strategic gambit, with or without Hitler's Flight Capital approval. Send the atomics both East and West and let Germany itself be the divided barrier landscape which neither side could afford to yield and thus both sides had to forgive. At least until they started a war which shattered the Fatherland, forever.

If I am right, boy have we ever been suckered.


>>>Regarding the bolded part, I would not be surprised. I definitely think there were elements in late war German society that were actively trying to cut deals with one or more of the Allied powers. I am prepared to say that I believe some...understandings...were arrived at, but exactly what was agreed to and by whom, I don't know. As for Hitler getting away, again I haven't seen enough to buy that one. At least not yet. But certainly the end of WWII in Europe was, as Joseph Farrell calls it, "a poorly written finale" as we have come to know it by way of the standard history of the conflict. The recent interest in, and reexamination of, the getaway of far too many Nazis for that to have been coincidence is long overdue, whether that ultimately results in a substantial rewriting of history or not.<<<

DavidFrankenberg
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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 26 Dec 2018 16:43

williamjpellas wrote:
25 Dec 2018 05:31
The german authorities decided to stop the atomic bomb project in the end of the year 1941, when they realize the war would be very long and very possibly resulting in a defeat... so they needed all $$$ to go to instant warfare.

Rubbish. The Germans are nothing if not smart engineers. They are also completely AR about detail scheduling. If Hitler wasn't high on his own success he would have dumped megabucks into SAMs and Jets. And by that act alone, have increased the duration of the war by 50%. There were 4 million household servants still on the tax roles in _AUTUMN 1944_!! Do not tell me that Fritz Todt or Albert Speer couldn't figure out how to spin the wheels faster.

I can only send you back to Mark Walker. He is quoting archives etc.
The failure of Barbarossa meant the end of a well supplied Atomic project.

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