First atomic bomb was German !?!

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williamjpellas
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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by williamjpellas » 27 Dec 2018 04:25

David, it doesn't sound like you have read Walker's more recent work on the subject. There is an excellent "Cliff's Notes" version of what is coming to be known as "the Karlsch Hypothesis" in the Physics World article, "New Light on Hitler's Bomb". Walker co-wrote that, along with Karlsch, back in 2005. I am curious what your thoughts would be if and when you give that a look. It used to be behind a subscriber wall, but I have recently been able to bring it up without a sign in on the Physics World site simply by doing a standard websearch.

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 01 Jan 2019 11:04

williamjpellas wrote:
27 Dec 2018 04:25
David, it doesn't sound like you have read Walker's more recent work on the subject. There is an excellent "Cliff's Notes" version of what is coming to be known as "the Karlsch Hypothesis" in the Physics World article, "New Light on Hitler's Bomb". Walker co-wrote that, along with Karlsch, back in 2005. I am curious what your thoughts would be if and when you give that a look. It used to be behind a subscriber wall, but I have recently been able to bring it up without a sign in on the Physics World site simply by doing a standard websearch.
I have read his 2009 The Kaiser Wilhelm Society during National Socialism. I wish i read all his books.

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by AllenM » 02 Jan 2019 23:43

The Americans returned some documents related to German atomic research in the late 1990s to the Deutsches Museum. Select documents were put on display in 2001. The German atomic program continued into 1945. The detonation of a German atomic bomb occurred. A formerly Top Secret document titled Investigations, Research, Developments, and Practical Use of the German Atomic Bomb. exists.

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 04 Jan 2019 00:52

williamjpellas wrote:
27 Dec 2018 04:25
David, it doesn't sound like you have read Walker's more recent work on the subject. There is an excellent "Cliff's Notes" version of what is coming to be known as "the Karlsch Hypothesis" in the Physics World article, "New Light on Hitler's Bomb". Walker co-wrote that, along with Karlsch, back in 2005. I am curious what your thoughts would be if and when you give that a look. It used to be behind a subscriber wall, but I have recently been able to bring it up without a sign in on the Physics World site simply by doing a standard websearch.
You may refer to that https://physicsworld.com/a/new-light-on-hitlers-bomb/
Right ?

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williamjpellas
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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by williamjpellas » 05 Jan 2019 02:16

AllenM wrote:
02 Jan 2019 23:43
The Americans returned some documents related to German atomic research in the late 1990s to the Deutsches Museum. Select documents were put on display in 2001. The German atomic program continued into 1945. The detonation of a German atomic bomb occurred. A formerly Top Secret document titled Investigations, Research, Developments, and Practical Use of the German Atomic Bomb. exists.
Allen, yes. I have a copy of the entire report you mention here. The documents that were returned to Germany included some of the so-called "G Papers". The "G" is a reference to "Gottow", which was a heavily wooded area south of Berlin that was maintained by the German Army as a weapons proving ground. It was also where the heeresaffenamt (German Army Weapons Bureau) had most of its infrastructure. This certainly included a cube lattice reactor that probably worked for at least a few weeks. Whether this was the source of the fissile material for the two test detonations near Ohrdurf, Germany, in March 1945, I don't know---but it would be a logical conjecture.

Some of the G Papers are cited in the German language Wikipedia article about the nuclear physicist Kurt Diebner. Diebner was the lead scientist for the Weapons Bureau's late war atomic bomb project. They are quite eye opening. It was my impression, though, that they were returned in the 1970s rather than the 1990s, but perhaps it was done in stages?
Last edited by williamjpellas on 05 Jan 2019 02:21, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by williamjpellas » 05 Jan 2019 02:20

DavidFrankenberg wrote:
04 Jan 2019 00:52
williamjpellas wrote:
27 Dec 2018 04:25
David, it doesn't sound like you have read Walker's more recent work on the subject. There is an excellent "Cliff's Notes" version of what is coming to be known as "the Karlsch Hypothesis" in the Physics World article, "New Light on Hitler's Bomb". Walker co-wrote that, along with Karlsch, back in 2005. I am curious what your thoughts would be if and when you give that a look. It used to be behind a subscriber wall, but I have recently been able to bring it up without a sign in on the Physics World site simply by doing a standard websearch.
You may refer to that https://physicsworld.com/a/new-light-on-hitlers-bomb/
Right ?
David, yes. That's the one.

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by wm » 05 Jan 2019 20:51

williamjpellas wrote:I have never read in any source that the Gigant was "invisible to radars".
Gigant was made of plywood and fabric, with wooden spars and covered with fabric. Of course, it was somewhat visible but much less than all-metal airplanes.
The point is such an attack (by a single plane, perhaps at night) wasn't anticipated so British defenses would be totally unprepared.

btw since when an atomic bomb had to be so large, the simplest and crudest was about 60 kg of enriched uranium, a few small bags of cordite and the casing - a few tons in total.
Last edited by wm on 06 Jan 2019 00:54, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by T. A. Gardner » 06 Jan 2019 00:06

wm wrote:
05 Jan 2019 20:51
williamjpellas wrote:I have never read in any source that the Gigant was "invisible to radars".
Gigant was made of plywood and fabric, with wooden spars and covered with fabric. Of course, it was somewhat visible but much less than all-metal airplanes.
The point is such an attack (by a single plane, perhaps at night) wasn't anticipated so British defenses would be totally unprepared.

btw since when an atomic bomb had to be so large, the simplest and crudest was about 60 kg of enriched uranium, a few small bags of cordite and the casing - a few tons in total.
[/quote]

Actually, the Gigant was built on a tubular steel framework with only secondary use of wood for bracing. The cargo deck floor was reinforced with steel I beams to take the weight of the expected cargo. The whole of that makes the aircraft, be it the glider or powered version, like a giant radar reflector antenna.

The glider version takes several regular aircraft to tug it into the sky and tow it to its release point.

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by wm » 06 Jan 2019 00:53

I know it was a tubular steel framework but still it doesn't help.
The fact is if the holes in the grid/mesh are larger than 1/10 of radio waves wavelength they aren't reflected (they are fully reflected if the holes are 1/100, in between it depends).
For Chain Home it was about 1 meter across and for the more relevant Chain Home Low it was 15 centimeters.

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by T. A. Gardner » 06 Jan 2019 03:05

wm wrote:
06 Jan 2019 00:53
I know it was a tubular steel framework but still it doesn't help.
The fact is if the holes in the grid/mesh are larger than 1/10 of radio waves wavelength they aren't reflected (they are fully reflected if the holes are 1/100, in between it depends).
For Chain Home it was about 1 meter across and for the more relevant Chain Home Low it was 15 centimeters.
Not true. The tubular structure acts like a yagi array. So long as the tubing is at least one half the lenght of the fundamental frequency of the radar being used it will act as a reflector. Worse, if the distance between various parts of the tubular airframe are some multiple or fraction of that frequency they act as a multiplier of the return signal.
Basically, that tubular steel airframe acts like a giant antenna that will reflect and even intensify the return signal.

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by Rob Stuart » 06 Jan 2019 03:40

wm wrote:
05 Jan 2019 20:51
Gigant was made of plywood and fabric, with wooden spars and covered with fabric. Of course, it was somewhat visible but much less than all-metal airplanes.
The point is such an attack (by a single plane, perhaps at night) wasn't anticipated so British defenses would be totally unprepared.
The first Ar 234 reconnaissance missions over the UK, in late 1944, represented the first successful PR missions over British territory in many months, IIRC, so the idea that a big slow moving target like a Gigant could make it to London, which I presume would be the target, just because it would be a single plane, is highly questionable.

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by wm » 06 Jan 2019 15:09

I didn't say it has to be a single plane, and a one-way mission is very different from a PR mission which generally should return after overflying a large swath of territory.

Of course in such an important mission the Germans would use all resources at their disposal to ensure its success, including jamming, diversionary attacks, fighters sweeps, fighter screens, masses of chaff and most likely it would happen at night or in bad visibility.

The Germans were still mass bombing London in 1944 (Operation Steinbock), it wasn't like there was nothing and suddenly a first successful PR mission happened.

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wm
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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by wm » 06 Jan 2019 15:16

T. A. Gardner wrote: Not true. The tubular structure acts like a yagi array. So long as the tubing is at least one half the lenght of the fundamental frequency of the radar being used it will act as a reflector. Worse, if the distance between various parts of the tubular airframe are some multiple or fraction of that frequency they act as a multiplier of the return signal.
The shape and dimensions of the Yagi antenna are precisely defined by complicated mathematical formulas. You can't change its shape a little or change its dimensions by a centimeter and expected it to work properly.
A few tubes aren't a Yagi antenna by any stretch of the imagination.

If what you have written was true we wouldn't be able to use cell phones/radios/TVs in any reinforced concrete building.

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by Rob Stuart » 06 Jan 2019 19:19

Rob Stuart wrote:
06 Jan 2019 03:40
wm wrote:
05 Jan 2019 20:51
Gigant was made of plywood and fabric, with wooden spars and covered with fabric. Of course, it was somewhat visible but much less than all-metal airplanes.
The point is such an attack (by a single plane, perhaps at night) wasn't anticipated so British defenses would be totally unprepared.
The first Ar 234 reconnaissance missions over the UK, in late 1944, represented the first successful PR missions over British territory in many months, IIRC, so the idea that a big slow moving target like a Gigant could make it to London, which I presume would be the target, just because it would be a single plane, is highly questionable.
wm wrote:
05 Jan 2019 20:51
I didn't say it has to be a single plane, and a one-way mission is very different from a PR mission which generally should return after overflying a large swath of territory.

Of course in such an important mission the Germans would use all resources at their disposal to ensure its success, including jamming, diversionary attacks, fighters sweeps, fighter screens, masses of chaff and most likely it would happen at night or in bad visibility.

The Germans were still mass bombing London in 1944 (Operation Steinbock), it wasn't like there was nothing and suddenly a first successful PR mission happened.
umm, yes, you did say the mission would be flown by a single plane. (See the bit in blue.) The point of my PR example was that Fighter Command was indeed able to deal with even singleton aircraft, and the PR aircraft in question were certainly of a much higher performance than a Gigant.

Steinbock was an unsuccessful operation which decimated the Luftwaffe bomber force in the West, despite the fact that it used regular bombers which were much faster than a Gigant, plus jamming, chaff, and diversions.

When do you suggest that this Gigant mission could have taken place?

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

Post by wm » 06 Jan 2019 20:57

Please, it was in response to a claim that the Germans had the bomb but didn't have means of its delivery so they didn't use it.

I don't quite understand why you want to discuss things in this absurd thread.

It could have been a single plane, it could have been a mass operation, it could have been the Heinkel He 177.
I have no doubt the Germans were capable to devise a proper plan especially if the British weren't aware they had the bomb.
At a pinch, they could have dropped the bomb over Portsmouth.

btw High-performance fighters vectored by radars could have easily intercepted a high flying single plane in daylight it was much different if the plane flew low in bad visibility.

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