UNKNOWN GENERAL SIGNED DOCUMENT - HELP
Thanks to everybody! Personally I agree with Translator about "typing errors" but I'm in troubles for the other doubts. I'm going to attach some pics. I hope they'll contribute to clear the situation. About the #2 in the stamp is it possible that it's the feldpost number?
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Translator
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valsente,
Well, you do have the individual's rank on the document - he was a Feldwebel. Regarding the stamp, I've turned up nothing about the Volkssturm prior to October, 1944 when it was "formally instituted" by a Hitler decree. The Number "2" on the stamp is possibly a unit designation, but not sure yet. In any case, the stamping does not appear to have enough letters in "----sturm" for the letters "Volks" to go in front "sturm". The only other possibility that comes to mind is the word "Luftsturm" (air defense units associated with the SS). I'm also attempting to verify the signature on the document (i.e. did this general exist?). More to follow on this. Anyone who cares to "jump in" and help this little research effort, please feel free to do so.
Well, you do have the individual's rank on the document - he was a Feldwebel. Regarding the stamp, I've turned up nothing about the Volkssturm prior to October, 1944 when it was "formally instituted" by a Hitler decree. The Number "2" on the stamp is possibly a unit designation, but not sure yet. In any case, the stamping does not appear to have enough letters in "----sturm" for the letters "Volks" to go in front "sturm". The only other possibility that comes to mind is the word "Luftsturm" (air defense units associated with the SS). I'm also attempting to verify the signature on the document (i.e. did this general exist?). More to follow on this. Anyone who cares to "jump in" and help this little research effort, please feel free to do so.
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Translator
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valsente,
In musing about the meaning of the stamping on this document, it occurs to me that the first word is probably not even "Deutscher" as was indicated earlier by a fellow forum member. Clearly, it appears that the second letter of this word is an "o". So what do we have? "Do_ischer" and then what - "Flaksturm"? "Luftsturm"? "Volkssturm"?. Please place the stamp under magnification and try to come up with the correct lettering in both words. It would help tremendously.
In musing about the meaning of the stamping on this document, it occurs to me that the first word is probably not even "Deutscher" as was indicated earlier by a fellow forum member. Clearly, it appears that the second letter of this word is an "o". So what do we have? "Do_ischer" and then what - "Flaksturm"? "Luftsturm"? "Volkssturm"?. Please place the stamp under magnification and try to come up with the correct lettering in both words. It would help tremendously.
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Translator
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valsente,
Check out this link:
http://www.ww2.dk/ground/flak/2fladiv.htm
We may be "on" to something here....
Check out this link:
http://www.ww2.dk/ground/flak/2fladiv.htm
We may be "on" to something here....
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Tim Walker
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Just a Thought
Could this be from an occupied country? ( Norway, France, etc..... ) or maybe a foreign legion? What do you think Translator? 
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Translator
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Tim,
These are all possibilities, I suppose. Right now, I'm trying to do some online research into the Flak-Divisionen (two others are mentioned in the O.B. of the 2nd Flak Division for which I've just provided the link). I believe our search would have been over if I could have matched the signature on the document with one of the names of the commanding officers mentioned in the O.B. for the 2.Flak-Division. We also would have had a possible explanation for the numeral "2" in the stamp (although I now tend to think, as someone has said before, that it's a "Feldpost" number for the "Deutscher Flaksturm"). This O.B. also confirms that the commanding officers of the Flak Divisionen were, apparently, of the Generalleutnant grade (I would have thought a lower ranking officer, an Oberst or Generalmajor, would have been assigned these jobs). I want to locate the O.B. of both the 6.Flak-Division and the 14.Flak-Division; these are each mentioned in the O.B. of the 2.Flak-Division. We need to try and find the name of the signer of this EK1 award document to Feldwebel Horngasser. My belief is that, the farther one has to "drill down" into the subject matter to prove the "historicity" of such a document, the tougher it would be for a "document faker" to come up with the same kind of information. Not saying it's impossible, just a lot more legwork for a $75-$100 "fake-job"....
These are all possibilities, I suppose. Right now, I'm trying to do some online research into the Flak-Divisionen (two others are mentioned in the O.B. of the 2nd Flak Division for which I've just provided the link). I believe our search would have been over if I could have matched the signature on the document with one of the names of the commanding officers mentioned in the O.B. for the 2.Flak-Division. We also would have had a possible explanation for the numeral "2" in the stamp (although I now tend to think, as someone has said before, that it's a "Feldpost" number for the "Deutscher Flaksturm"). This O.B. also confirms that the commanding officers of the Flak Divisionen were, apparently, of the Generalleutnant grade (I would have thought a lower ranking officer, an Oberst or Generalmajor, would have been assigned these jobs). I want to locate the O.B. of both the 6.Flak-Division and the 14.Flak-Division; these are each mentioned in the O.B. of the 2.Flak-Division. We need to try and find the name of the signer of this EK1 award document to Feldwebel Horngasser. My belief is that, the farther one has to "drill down" into the subject matter to prove the "historicity" of such a document, the tougher it would be for a "document faker" to come up with the same kind of information. Not saying it's impossible, just a lot more legwork for a $75-$100 "fake-job"....
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Translator
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valsente,
I just went over what appears to be a very complete list of German WWII Flak units:
http://www.ww2.dk/ground/flak.html
Unfortunately, I could not find a "match" with the signer's name on your EK1 document. I looked at the names and ranks of all listed commanding offiers, as well as the names and ranks of all those who are shown as having the authority to sign "im Auftrag" (iA). Of course, I'm not completely sure what the name on your document is (I will go out on a limb and "guess" it's "Amsturfer G."), and I will agree with an earlier contributor to this thread that the format of the name is, if not "irregular" then at least "different" in that it provides the first initial of the signer and that this appears at the end of the name. Another somewhat strange fact about the name is that while it's signed in script the letters are not connected (as if it were signed in block letters and not script). In any case, I believe the "key" to determining the authenticity of this document now depends on the identification of the signer. We may assume this individual was a Generalleutnant, but this may not be the case (i.e. the document may have been signed "im Auftrag" but the "iA" was omitted, and the rank designation may not have been changed). I would not be surprised if this were the case, judging by the other shall we say "sloppy" details that are present here. My suggestion is to now turn to the several published Ranglisten (officer's rank listings) to try and come up with a firm identification of the signer of this document.
I just went over what appears to be a very complete list of German WWII Flak units:
http://www.ww2.dk/ground/flak.html
Unfortunately, I could not find a "match" with the signer's name on your EK1 document. I looked at the names and ranks of all listed commanding offiers, as well as the names and ranks of all those who are shown as having the authority to sign "im Auftrag" (iA). Of course, I'm not completely sure what the name on your document is (I will go out on a limb and "guess" it's "Amsturfer G."), and I will agree with an earlier contributor to this thread that the format of the name is, if not "irregular" then at least "different" in that it provides the first initial of the signer and that this appears at the end of the name. Another somewhat strange fact about the name is that while it's signed in script the letters are not connected (as if it were signed in block letters and not script). In any case, I believe the "key" to determining the authenticity of this document now depends on the identification of the signer. We may assume this individual was a Generalleutnant, but this may not be the case (i.e. the document may have been signed "im Auftrag" but the "iA" was omitted, and the rank designation may not have been changed). I would not be surprised if this were the case, judging by the other shall we say "sloppy" details that are present here. My suggestion is to now turn to the several published Ranglisten (officer's rank listings) to try and come up with a firm identification of the signer of this document.
Hi Translator,Translator wrote:valsente,
In musing about the meaning of the stamping on this document, it occurs to me that the first word is probably not even "Deutscher" as was indicated earlier by a fellow forum member. Clearly, it appears that the second letter of this word is an "o". So what do we have? "Do_ischer" and then what - "Flaksturm"? "Luftsturm"? "Volkssturm"?. Please place the stamp under magnification and try to come up with the correct lettering in both words. It would help tremendously.
the right word is "Doitscher" that, I suppose, is the equivalent of "Deutscher". If you try by Google adding a year date like 1933 or 1938 to the word Doitscher you'll find the words "Doitscher sozialismus" or "doitscher Burschenschaftler". I don't know what it means. About "....sturm" I cann't give you new informations. That's what you can see in the pic. Sorry.
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Translator
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valsente,
Unfortunately, I've never seen "Doitscher" used in place of "Deutscher". These would be pronounced the same, but that's about where the similarity ends (to my knowledge, at least). What we need to do is ask someone who has access to the Luftwaffe Ranglisten to try and locate the name of the signer of this document. I don't currently have those lists in my possession, but I'm reasonably sure someone else on this forum has access to them.
Unfortunately, I've never seen "Doitscher" used in place of "Deutscher". These would be pronounced the same, but that's about where the similarity ends (to my knowledge, at least). What we need to do is ask someone who has access to the Luftwaffe Ranglisten to try and locate the name of the signer of this document. I don't currently have those lists in my possession, but I'm reasonably sure someone else on this forum has access to them.
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Tim Walker
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Nafziger Books
Gentleman,
I'm looking in my Order of Battle books by Nafziger but you'll have to give me a little time. I will get back on what I find.
I'm looking in my Order of Battle books by Nafziger but you'll have to give me a little time. I will get back on what I find.
Thank you all. I have been watching / learning from this post.
My other concerns are that
(i) the surname of recipients is generally typed "double space";
(ii) I am of the opinion that the eagle head should face to the left.
My main collecting interest is NSDAP and related organisations material but I also have an interest in paperwork.
Anymore contributions ??
My other concerns are that
(i) the surname of recipients is generally typed "double space";
(ii) I am of the opinion that the eagle head should face to the left.
My main collecting interest is NSDAP and related organisations material but I also have an interest in paperwork.
Anymore contributions ??
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Translator
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Dan,
I've encountered both double- and single spaced names, and stamps with the eagle facing either right or left on documents. So, there's nothing definitive (IMO) in either of these considerations. Let's see if we can come up with the signer on a Luftwaffe (or otherwise) Rangliste; this might provide us with a vital "key" toward resolving this issue.
I've encountered both double- and single spaced names, and stamps with the eagle facing either right or left on documents. So, there's nothing definitive (IMO) in either of these considerations. Let's see if we can come up with the signer on a Luftwaffe (or otherwise) Rangliste; this might provide us with a vital "key" toward resolving this issue.