Document in the book "Where the iron crosses grow" R.Forczyk

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edgardo gil
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Document in the book "Where the iron crosses grow" R.Forczyk

Post by edgardo gil » 05 Oct 2014 03:09

In the mentioned book there is a document with the following caption:

Part of the daily log from a German security unit in the Crimea, for March 17, 1942. Note the numerous notations for “Juden Akten” or Jewish Action, indicating liquidation operations against local civilians. The banality of evil is quite evident on this piece of bureaucratic memorabilia, with the most interesting touch being that the Germans actually used a stamp for ethnic-cleansing activities. (NARA)

And this is the document:

Image


Well, I am not an expert in german language but I guess that in the document it reads "zu den akten" and not "juden akten" translated like "jewish action"
Somebody could translate the meaning of "zu den akten" I guess that it means something about documents.
Many thanks.

Maverick57
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Re: Document in the book "Where the iron crosses grow" R.For

Post by Maverick57 » 05 Oct 2014 05:39

Hey Eduardo,

"zu den Akten" means s.th. like transfered to the archive.

history1
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Re: Document in the book "Where the iron crosses grow" R.For

Post by history1 » 05 Oct 2014 09:43

Agreed, an error which could be easy avoided when comparing the letters "J" and Z" in Sütterlin!

"Zu den Akten" can be also translated as " to the files/records"

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Re: Document in the book "Where the iron crosses grow" R.For

Post by edgardo gil » 05 Oct 2014 16:29

Many thanks, I don´t read the whole book but the comment of the author about this document make me wonder if it worths to read all the book.

history1
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Re: Document in the book "Where the iron crosses grow" R.For

Post by history1 » 12 Oct 2014 08:50

Note that the caption on the top of this file reads "Bearbeitung und Ausgang des Schriftstückes" = handling and way out/disposition of the paper.

I know how I would handle this book....... depositing in the circular file (= waste paper basket).

harmel
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Re: Document in the book "Where the iron crosses grow" R.Forczyk

Post by harmel » 14 Jan 2015 01:47

Excellent Book!! Read it before you knock it.
Harmel :wink:

edgardo gil
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Re: Document in the book "Where the iron crosses grow" R.Forczyk

Post by edgardo gil » 14 Jan 2015 03:13

Well, I read this and I had enough, I wonder what more of this stuff I can find in the book.
I have many books to read yet in my shelves (or virtual shelves) and I guess that this kind of books can wait a looong time to be reading.
By the way, thanks for your advice.

history1
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Re: Document in the book "Where the iron crosses grow" R.Forczyk

Post by history1 » 14 Jan 2015 12:35

harmel wrote:Excellent Book!! Read it before you knock it.
Harmel :wink:
There are two possibilities:
1. You´re kidding.
2. Your standards are veeeeery low.

@edgardgo gil: I even don´t want to imagine which failures/errors are there more in the book. Making from a file about the handling of papers a document about jewish actions. Such acting raises surely the sales figures.

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Re: Document in the book "Where the iron crosses grow" R.Forczyk

Post by Jeff Leach » 15 Jan 2015 12:51

R. Forczyk has certainly not looked at the original documentation. Among the records of A.O.K. 11 are fairly regular reports from Stab für Partisanbekämpfung, which gives accounts about what was happening behind the front lines. There is information on the G.F.P. activities, which I hadn't seen before, report(s) from Einsatzgruppe D (have seen Report Nr. 6) and a mention of Jews being shot (the first time I have seen it in the original documents).

Besides primary source, in German there are quite good secondary sources. Besatzungspolitik und Massenmord. Die Einsatzgruppe D in der südlichen Sowjetunion 1941-1943 by Andrej Angrick and Klaus M. Mallman's three volume set of the Einsatzgruppen Reports, triology starts with Die "Ereignismeldungen UdSSR" 1941: Dokumente der Einsatzgruppen in der Sowjetunion. There is a host of other volumes documenting the German missdeeds in the East. There is no good reason to get it wrong.

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Reichskriegsgericht
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Re: Document in the book "Where the iron crosses grow" R.Forczyk

Post by Reichskriegsgericht » 26 Jan 2015 22:13

One of the Amazon reviews ist quite revealing. Someone pointed out exact the same mistake and has been accused by Mr Forczyk of being a holocaust denier. The is a major embarrassment for Osprey's editor and Forczyk himself. I doubt if Mr Forczyk even speaks German (or Russian for that matter), but he certainly doesn't understand the language (not to mention the documents). At least I couldn't find any information on Osprey's website or Mr. Forczyk's Linkedin page.

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Re: Document in the book "Where the iron crosses grow" R.Forczyk

Post by Rob - wssob2 » 27 Jan 2015 02:19

Can anyone read the rest of the document scanned in the thread? The titles of the columns at the top, for example.

The document supposedly comes from a German security unit in the Crimea, for March 17, 1942. Do we know which unit?

That there were security units committing genocide in the Crimea in March 1942 is amply documented.

edgardo gil
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Re: Document in the book "Where the iron crosses grow" R.Forczyk

Post by edgardo gil » 27 Jan 2015 03:02

The book only show this in a chapter annexed with many photos, nothing more. Anything about which unit. Maybe if you read all the book you can find any clue about which unit committed war crimes and genocide.
In my humble opinion the author makes an error trying to compel the document to tell what the document don´t tell indeed.
If the point is to demonstrate that there were some units -heer units or security units- that committed genocide in Crimea in 1942 this is not the better document. The author would have to choose other documents to support his thesis.

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Re: Document in the book "Where the iron crosses grow" R.Forczyk

Post by Rob - wssob2 » 27 Jan 2015 03:29

Hi edgardo,

The fact that German units committed genocide in the Crimea between Nov 1941-March 1942 and beyond is a well-established fact. For example, see the chapter "Extermination of the Jews in the Crimea" in Yitzhak Arad's The Holocaust in the Soviet Union p.211. There's a quite a bit of info about the collaboration of Manstein's Eleventh Army with the Einsatzgruppen.

It would be interesting to determine what unit this specific document is from. If it is from a security operation in the file, it is quite possible it could be referring to a "Juden Aktion" that was "Zu den Aken," so to speak.

If I tossed out every military history book on my shelf that had an error in a picture caption, I'd end up with an empty shelf!

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Re: Document in the book "Where the iron crosses grow" R.Forczyk

Post by edgardo gil » 27 Jan 2015 03:49

Well if it is a well established fact, I can assure that it was well established by other documents, not this. You must show the correct sources if you make a schollarly work. As you say, "a well established fact"; it can´t be too much difficult then, to put the right documents.
And please, this in not an error in a picture caption, it´s a whole paragraph explanation, a very biased interpretation of the document and a misguided interpretation.
It`s a well established fact (with the right documents) that the nazis kill jews and other people during WWII but you can´t try to prove this with documents that not prove that. With this conduct you only give the neonazis an argument that you are a liar and that you use documents that don´t prove nothing.
Last edited by edgardo gil on 27 Jan 2015 16:29, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Document in the book "Where the iron crosses grow" R.Forczyk

Post by siwiec » 27 Jan 2015 06:56

Rob - wssob2 wrote: It would be interesting to determine what unit this specific document is from. If it is from a security operation in the file, it is quite possible it could be referring to a "Juden Aktion" that was "Zu den Aken," so to speak.
Sounds a bit far fetching. Someone at Amazon wrote there is text "Bearbeitung und Ausgang des Schriftstückes" at the top of the document, which means handling and disposition of document. That would indicate this being a some kind of an archival ledger. Nothing indicates this has nothing to do with the specific contents of the documents it refers to. "Juden Aktion" is obviously a major blunder.

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