Third Reich signatures.

Discussions on Axis documents, postcards, posters and other paper items as well as feldpost numbers.
GregSingh
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Re: Third Reich signatures.

Post by GregSingh » 14 Apr 2017 08:50

Bernhard Voß, from July 1943
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GregSingh
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Re: Third Reich signatures.

Post by GregSingh » 14 Apr 2017 08:59

Richard Hildebrandt, from November 1943
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Alexandra W
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Re: Third Reich signatures.

Post by Alexandra W » 14 Apr 2017 12:17

Actually, I am not so sure if those are genuine signatures of Generaloberst Hans Jeschonnek, the Chief of Staff of the Luftwaffe, and Oberst Werner Baumbach, the General of Bombers. Can anybody confirm that? Thanks

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Alex
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Alexandra W
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Re: Third Reich signatures.

Post by Alexandra W » 14 Apr 2017 12:20

And here's the other one.
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Ian Sayer
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Re: Third Reich signatures.

Post by Ian Sayer » 14 Apr 2017 13:31

For what it's worth I think the Jeschonnek is a fairly clear forgery and the Baumbach is a better attempt.

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Alexandra W
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Re: Third Reich signatures.

Post by Alexandra W » 21 Apr 2017 09:31

Ian Sayer wrote:For what it's worth I think the Jeschonnek is a fairly clear forgery and the Baumbach is a better attempt.
Thanks Ian,

Just wonder how you knew that? Apart from this I only saw Jeschonnek's signature once and for me they look quite similar. As for Baumbach, the signature you can find on the Internet are almost all different. I wonder which one is the genuine one...

Regards,
Alex

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Nicolas7507
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Re: Third Reich signatures.

Post by Nicolas7507 » 21 Apr 2017 09:47

Orginial Jeschonnek
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Alexandra W
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Re: Third Reich signatures.

Post by Alexandra W » 21 Apr 2017 10:25

Signature of Gert Jeschonnek.
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Ian Sayer
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Re: Third Reich signatures.

Post by Ian Sayer » 21 Apr 2017 10:41

Couldn't comment on that. Never seen one before.

Well Alex concerning your query, it is only my opinion after all. As you may be aware very few people are prepared to comment on this sort of thing because it can end up being time consuming and there is always the very real risk of a controversial situation. I base my assessments on two things. My experience of handling items such as these for four decades and examples I may have in my own collection. Regarding the latter many of the items I have accumulated have long established provenances for example various visitors/guest books such as those belonging to Heinrich Hoffmann and several Gauleiters. I have several examples of Jeschonnek and, without examining the originals, the two copies you have provided appear to bear authentic signatures. However the signed photo still, in my opinion, is a forgery. I may be wrong but the Baumbach is inconsistent with the examples I have. I usually try to be helpful but commenting on signatures that people have acquired will continue to be a relatively difficult and often controversail task.

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Alexandra W
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Re: Third Reich signatures.

Post by Alexandra W » 21 Apr 2017 11:14

Ian Sayer wrote:Couldn't comment on that. Never seen one before.

Well Alex concerning your query, it is only my opinion after all. As you may be aware very few people are prepared to comment on this sort of thing because it can end up being time consuming and there is always the very real risk of a controversial situation. I base my assessments on two things. My experience of handling items such as these for four decades and examples I may have in my own collection. Regarding the latter many of the items I have accumulated have long established provenances for example various visitors/guest books such as those belonging to Heinrich Hoffmann and several Gauleiters. I have several examples of Jeschonnek and, without examining the originals, the two copies you have provided appear to bear authentic signatures. However the signed photo still, in my opinion, is a forgery. I may be wrong but the Baumbach is inconsistent with the examples I have. I usually try to be helpful but commenting on signatures that people have acquired will continue to be a relatively difficult and often controversail task.
Thanks Ian. Very helpful.
I must admit that I am a little bit upset. I was planning to send this to my friend as a gift, but now it seems too silly to do that, lol...
As for Baumbach, I have seen at least five versions of signatures which claim to be his original, and even for an inexperienced one as me can see the differences. I don't know if young people like to change their signature styles or those are just another forgeries.
You are right. The whole signature thing is just too complicated and controversial for a beginner. Maybe I should just go collecting old Third Reich newspapers and magazines. At least they cannot be forgeries, or can they?

Regards,
Alex

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hucks216
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Re: Third Reich signatures.

Post by hucks216 » 21 Apr 2017 11:18

Alexandra W wrote:
Just wonder how you knew that? Apart from this I only saw Jeschonnek's signature once and for me they look quite similar. As for Baumbach, the signature you can find on the Internet are almost all different. I wonder which one is the genuine one...

Regards,
Alex

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I would say that the signature on the photo does look a little laboured, as if someone is concentrating on getting it right. The one you show on the citation here belongs to me and is part of a citations & Soldbuch set that belonged to a Naval officer who was assigned to RLM as a liaison officer.
The thing with signed photos is that there is no corroborating data to help back up the signature so unless you have an unbroken chain from when it was signed to it being in your hands it is hard to say who or when it was signed. At least with citations there is a stamp, authorising authority, date, rank, command position & unit that any potential faker has to get right although I would be the first to admit that the serious fakers are getting much much better at that then they used to be. With a signed photo you just need old photo stock and a pen. As I don't collect photos, signed or otherwise, I know nothing about wartime photos and the developing process but does the photo paper used on your example correspond to that used prior to August 1943?

Ian Sayer
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Re: Third Reich signatures.

Post by Ian Sayer » 21 Apr 2017 11:39

I agree with Hucks Alex. Signed photos and documents from this period can be worth a lot of money depending on various factors so it is an area which is attractive to forgers. People who have been collecting for a long time are not infallible but I think in this field some of the 'old hands' would be more competent than 'experts' from the major auction houses. Sometimes people rely on certificates of authentication which , in my opinion, are usually worthless. Other people rely on buying from auction houses of long standing but it is often the case that the auction 'expert' has very little experience of the signatures they are certifying. If you buy on E Bay or similar the old adage of 'buyer beware' must always prevail. I think it is possible to find the odd 'bargain' on Ebay but you would have to be very very lucky. It is , as far as I can see, a forger's paradise. Everybody has to start somewhere but you should be extra careful as you build up experience. It is a very engaging hobby but you have to learn from your mistakes. I have! Third Reich magazines and newspapers could be an interesting area. You are unlikely to find many forgeries , if any, for two reasons. From a forger's point of view it is not worth it and secondly any forger would probably have to use paper stock produced after the war which is quite easy to determine with ultra violet torches. Hope that helps and good luck Alex.

Nicolas7507
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Re: Third Reich signatures.

Post by Nicolas7507 » 21 Apr 2017 11:46

I agree with Ian. I collect third reich books from time to time and forgeries are almost non existant.
I dont know any...
Imagine forging a whole book. Tons of work. Another pro is the huge selection of differenr books and the often very low price.
Have fun!

Best,
Nicolas

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Alexandra W
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Re: Third Reich signatures.

Post by Alexandra W » 21 Apr 2017 12:04

hucks216 wrote:
Alexandra W wrote:
Just wonder how you knew that? Apart from this I only saw Jeschonnek's signature once and for me they look quite similar. As for Baumbach, the signature you can find on the Internet are almost all different. I wonder which one is the genuine one...

Regards,
Alex

Image

I would say that the signature on the photo does look a little laboured, as if someone is concentrating on getting it right. The one you show on the citation here belongs to me and is part of a citations & Soldbuch set that belonged to a Naval officer who was assigned to RLM as a liaison officer.
The thing with signed photos is that there is no corroborating data to help back up the signature so unless you have an unbroken chain from when it was signed to it being in your hands it is hard to say who or when it was signed. At least with citations there is a stamp, authorising authority, date, rank, command position & unit that any potential faker has to get right although I would be the first to admit that the serious fakers are getting much much better at that then they used to be. With a signed photo you just need old photo stock and a pen. As I don't collect photos, signed or otherwise, I know nothing about wartime photos and the developing process but does the photo paper used on your example correspond to that used prior to August 1943?

Well, at first I thought the difference is just caused by writing on different media. But on the second thought, it does look like something when I try to imitate my parents' signatures :D
In addition, thanks for your photos and information!
Sorry that I could not provide photo paper details. I am not a serious collector. Though I do have a copy of Jeschonnek's obituary on Baltimore Sun and the photo paper seems similar to me, I have no idea if the copy's produced shortly after or postwar. I am not an expert on this that even I have seen the original Hoffmann photos in LoC the best I can recall is that they looked no difference to me :oops: And the only thing I know about its source is that the seller bought it from the Show of Shows, which may make it even more suspicious, lol.

Regards,
Alex

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Alexandra W
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Re: Third Reich signatures.

Post by Alexandra W » 21 Apr 2017 12:08

Nicolas7507 wrote:I agree with Ian. I collect third reich books from time to time and forgeries are almost non existant.
I dont know any...
Imagine forging a whole book. Tons of work. Another pro is the huge selection of differenr books and the often very low price.
Have fun!

Best,
Nicolas
Hi Nicolas,

The only forgery I know is Hitler's diary, but I would certainly not buy such a thing :D Thanks!

Regards,
Alex

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