More on Cruise's Stauffenberg film

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Blintokahf
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Re: More on Cruise's Stauffenberg film

Post by Blintokahf » 04 Jan 2009 07:42

Adam Carr wrote:He probably means there were no BLACK SS uniforms, being (like many people) under the impression that the SS always wore the black uniform. In fact this was only a dress uniform, and most Waffen SS never wore it. After 1941 it went out of fashion even among General SS, because it came to be associated with SS bigwigs dodging duty at the front. By 1944 almost all SS were wearing a uniform which looked very like a Wehrmacht uniform except for the collar tabs and other trimmings.
i understand why you would assume i meant the Black SS uniform... as you (or anyone here) does not know me and the amount of knowledge i may or may not have...but i do know the black uniform was for parade/dress only

i was looking for the black collars and SS runes on the collars.. do not recall seeing them in the movie
as far as i know that was the major diff btwn regular army and waffen ss.. black collars but other wise regular tunics
and of coarse the SS wore alot of camo gear.

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Adam Carr
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Re: More on Cruise's Stauffenberg film

Post by Adam Carr » 04 Jan 2009 08:54

OK well I will wait till I see the film before I comment further. I wonder if it's showing in Beijing?

Alecci
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Re: More on Cruise's Stauffenberg film

Post by Alecci » 04 Jan 2009 15:50

Blintokahf wrote:in the movie they show CvS walking away from the meeting and the building explodes ...but i am sure i read
that in reality the bomb exploded when CvS was at the first check point ...
The bomb went off as Graf Stauffenberg stood together with Gen Fellgiebel, OLt von Haeften and ObtLt Sander (Wolfschanze Chief of Communications) outside the communications bunker.

Graf Stauffenberg and von Haeften managed to pass the first check-point because at that time the alarm had been sounded only seconds before he approached it, everyone believed the explosion was actually a mine that had went off, their papers were in order and in addition Graf Stauffenberg knew the officer in charge (an Oberleutnant whose name remains unknown to me) personally.

Not even the SS report about the explosion at Wolfsschanze stated that it was a mistake by the check-points to let Graf Stauffenberg and von Haeften pass. On the contrary, it emphasizes that the readers (Hitler, Himmler, etc) should take into account that at the time Graf Stauffenberg passed the check-points, he was not yet a suspect but on the contrary known as a seriously disabled fighting man in excellent standing.

The book by Baigent and Leigh contains numerous errors, and while it's still a very good book (I have two copies myself), most "facts" within about the assassination attempt and the attempted overthrow should be approached with a healthy amount of scepticism and double-checked before making any public statements citing it as a source.

JockCampbell41
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Re: More on Cruise's Stauffenberg film

Post by JockCampbell41 » 05 Jan 2009 09:04

"The book by Baigent and Leigh contains numerous errors, and while it's still a very good book (I have two copies myself), most "facts" within about the assassination attempt and the attempted overthrow should be approached with a healthy amount of scepticism and double-checked before making any public statements citing it as a source."

Which isn't surprising for Baigent and Leigh (aka Sir Leigh Teabing) :P

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Re: More on Cruise's Stauffenberg film

Post by junebaby » 06 Jan 2009 20:26

:lol: Well I plan to see the thing, maybe Friday night or Saturday afternoon. I'll reserve my judgement on Cruise's preformance till i see it.
By the way, has there ever been a book or list published (no doubt in german) listing all the conspirators or anyone remotely invovled in the plot? I have relatives who served in the Wehrmacht during this period.Whether any were involved or not,i don't know, but it would be very interesting to me to learn more about the family during this period.

I know there were other plots before this to do Hitler in, but wasn't this the one that came closest to succeeding?
Also Stefan George was mentioned.I've heard the name before, and once read a book about Mary Queen of Scots or Marie Antoinette by him.Or maybe I'm thinking of another Stefan.

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Re: More on Cruise's Stauffenberg film

Post by Alecci » 06 Jan 2009 21:29

junebaby wrote:By the way, has there ever been a book or list published (no doubt in german) listing all the conspirators or anyone remotely invovled in the plot?
I have posted a master list of resistance members who held a military rank in the Resistance section of this board. Shouldn't be hard to find, it's a sticky.

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valkyrie
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Re: More on Cruise's Stauffenberg film

Post by valkyrie » 06 Jan 2009 22:03

There are various lists of resisters around the net and in books but I've never seen what I would consider a complete one. I don't suppose you ever could compile one as there were literally thousands of people either fully committed or partially in the know re. multiple plots between 1933 and 1945 and many more who either denied involvement or claimed it post-war, depending on the winds of fashion.

Alecci's list is an excellent one for detail and completeness but, as he notes, it includes only those holding military rank and it concentrates on July 20 (with some additions). There were many civilians, religious figures and government officials involved too. Depends on your defitnion of resistance a bit.

If you provide you family name some of the knowledgable folk here might be able to tell you if there is an obvious potential link.

Stefan George was a charismatic and mystical German poet who I am sure never wrote a bio of either Queen Mary.

Colin

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dragoner
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Re: More on Cruise's Stauffenberg film

Post by dragoner » 09 Jan 2009 18:51

I saw the trailer and it seemed it was just an american playing a southern nobleman, and knowing how they are, it seemed so unreal, as I think I will skip the movie.

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Qvist
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Re: More on Cruise's Stauffenberg film

Post by Qvist » 09 Jan 2009 23:03

Stephan George undoubtedly influenced Stauffenberg and made him the man he was. But I would argue that people like Tresckow had far more influence on making him take part in the conspiracy. Baigent and Leigh's book is interesting but it is structuured to defend a single thesis and the George bio you note for obvious reasons focuses on George's influence on Stauffenberg - I still think Hoffmann's bio is far more scholarly and unbiased in its approach IMO.
To continue a bit on this subject, I think that too often the formative influence of George (or the Das geheime Deutschland circle) and the influence of fellow officers, military ideals, current events etc are seen as competing explanations, which is quite unneccessary. The George circle continued to exist after George's death, and CvB played an important role in it. It seems clear that he still regarded it as the focal point of his loyalty and identity even during the war. There are no indications that Stauffenberg saw any contradiction between his role as an officer and his role as an important figure in the George circle - on the contrary, he appears to have seen them as very much two aspects of the same thing. After all, the circle aspired to a position of national leadership (if in a cultural and spiritual sense) and was motivated by a sense of a nationally conceived mission.That transplanting the George ethos to a military setting should lead to something like von Stauffenberg makes perfect sense, and in many ways Stauffenberg's rebellion is one - if not the only - logical embodiment of that ethos. In my opinion, it is also reasonable to argue that George's ideas had a direct influence on the resistance - just look at the oath the Stauffenberg brothers and Fahrner drew up right before 20 July, it's replete with Georgean ideas.

Which is not to say that realism, decency, politics and other things had nothing to do with it. CvB was in a position in the General Staff which positioned him ideally to know how very desperate the German situation was, and how badly the war was being managed (it is interesting to note how many of the central conspirators were connected with the Ersatzheer and the Organisationsabteilung in the OKH - the offices most intimately acquainted with the hopelessness of the manpower situation). They all pulled in the same direction. To simplify, maybe one could say that the George inheritance and his dedication on that point provided him with his sense of identity and his focal point of loyalty and equipped him with a readiness to act in what he perceived as the higher interests of Germany, at the same time equipping him with a disdain for conventional and formal morality such as fealty to the oath of allegiance. The war situation and the actions of the nazi regime on the other hand showed him what needed to be done in the specific situation that existed.

cheers

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colt45
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Re: More on Cruise's Stauffenberg film

Post by colt45 » 10 Jan 2009 02:18

Was the pistol General Beck used a Belguim Browning? it looked bigger than a PPK ?

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valkyrie
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Re: More on Cruise's Stauffenberg film

Post by valkyrie » 10 Jan 2009 02:24

A couple of interesting reviews/features on Valkyrie and Stauffenberg

This one by Justin Cartwright, author of a compelling widerstand novel entitled "The Song Before its Sung" based on the life of Adam von Trott zu Solz.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/2009/jan ... itler-plot

And an interesting and somewhat selective piece that accuses Valkyrie of revisionism (it had to happen)

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/valkyrie-a ... od-german/

Colin

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Simon K
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Re: More on Cruise's Stauffenberg film

Post by Simon K » 10 Jan 2009 02:26

Are there any (English) works translating or interpreting Georgs' writings that anyone can recommend?

Simon

JockCampbell41
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Re: More on Cruise's Stauffenberg film

Post by JockCampbell41 » 11 Jan 2009 06:41

Okay I've not seen it yet but since it's never been mentioned - I wonder if it wouldn't have been a bit better if they showed (if historical) the various agencies (SS, SD, Gestapo, Abwehr, etc.) maneuvering and plotting against each other to 'control' space within German government, like in Conspiracy, to show how it might have been possible to believe that the SS were going to assassinate Hitler or something like that. Granted it might have turned into 'The Eagle Has Flown' but I don't ever hear it mentioned and it might have added more depth to the story.

Maybe a little prologue starting before the war showing Beck's planned coup that didn't go off because of Chamberlain backing down at Munich and the various players then to contextualize things. Maybe showing Ludwig Beck hanging up his spurs after the abortive coup fails. Just thinking out loud here.

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Re: More on Cruise's Stauffenberg film

Post by B5N2KATE » 11 Jan 2009 09:47

This movie should have been done years ago, when Maxmillion Schell was a little younger....Schell resembles Stauffenburg in more ways than one, is an actor capable of delivering a compelling performance, and a Southern German? to boot.

Tom Cruise?.... 8O

Not the best actor in the world....and about a foot too short ...Perhaps the camera will have to be looking upward at him all the time, to give the impression that Tom is taller....

Hope we don't get an hour and a half of shots of Tom Cruise's nasal hairs...
"Es mejor morir de pie que vivir de rodillas!"
("It is better to die on your feet than live on your knees!")

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valkyrie
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Re: More on Cruise's Stauffenberg film

Post by valkyrie » 11 Jan 2009 17:12

The movie was done years ago, multiple times and to varying degrees of success. Stauffenberg in 2004 was quite good but spoiled by some very material and unnecessary tampering with accuracy. Cruise's version is excellent but too short.

I hope European viewers get the film soon.

Colin

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