Who are the Uniform advisors in these films?

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Kameraden
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Who are the Uniform advisors in these films?

#1

Post by Kameraden » 16 Oct 2008, 11:11

Hi

The amount of films i see with technical and historical inaccuracies regarding German Uniforms and insignia are mind boggling.

These advisors all seem to been obsessed with giving Knights Crosses to the actors.
Watched the 2007 film last night called the Counterfeiters about the inmates at Sachenhausen forging banknotes and of course the the SS Major in charge of the section on the concentration cap had to have the Knights Cross.(Less tha 500 awarded to Waffen-SS)
Escape to victory had a an SS Villain type officer who of course had to have the Knights Cross with Oakleaves and Swords(Only awarded 25 times to Waffen-SS).
Another one was the Dutch film Soldier of Orange where the Dutch SS Panzer Officer had the Knights cross.
And of course
Seems to be a pattern developing here.

They always have to have the most flashy and eye catching decorations possible.

Cross of Iron and James Coburns character has the Close Combat Clasp in gold.
Less than 700 of these were awarded and the recipient usually as awared this by Adolf Hitler personally.

So out of the 15 Million+ members of the Wehrmacht these awards were extremely rare'but the actors have to have them.


And thats just the KC,never mind other decorations worn in the wrong place or before they were even instituted and the uniforms and insignia.

So who are these advisors and how can i get a job replacing them??

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B Hellqvist
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Re: Who are the Uniform advisors in these films?

#2

Post by B Hellqvist » 16 Oct 2008, 11:34

One cannot always suppose that the uniform advisors have the final say. The person(s) responsible for costuming usually have a "vision" of how things ought to look (=artistic license), and probably reason like this: "Germans => smart uniforms => medals => more formidable enemies/protagonists". Take "Where Eagles Dare", where Brian Davis did a fine job (compare the uniforms to the standard prevalent in 1960's war movies, and you'll see that even details like the correct SS Gebirgsjäger sleeve patch was used), but where someone thought that the SS guy should be pimped out in black and about a kilo's worth of medals. So, when guys like Andrew Mollo are involved, the uniforms usually looks just right, but then there are those who have a nebulous idea of what the Germans are supposed to look like (that's probably why see so many late war movies with Germans in 1940 kit), and trust that the uniform rental firms will find them the right stuff.


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Kameraden
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Re: Who are the Uniform advisors in these films?

#3

Post by Kameraden » 17 Oct 2008, 09:43

Yeah Major Von Hapen is also an another one with the Close Combat Clasp in Gold.
Apart from that my fave film.
Love the Gebirgsjager!!

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Re: Who are the Uniform advisors in these films?

#4

Post by Ingsoc75 » 17 Oct 2008, 16:25

What about Leutnant Triebig's 'helper' in Cross of Iron who came with him from France, he had the Ostfront Winter ribbon. :)

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Kameraden
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Re: Who are the Uniform advisors in these films?

#5

Post by Kameraden » 17 Oct 2008, 17:15

So lets turn this into the historical accuracy errors in film and tv thread.

Another cross of Iron error.
James Masons Colonel Brandt is wearing his Crimea Shield on his right arm and it's to be worn on the left.

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Re: Who are the Uniform advisors in these films?

#6

Post by Pax Melmacia » 20 Oct 2008, 03:41

In a neighborhood antiques store I saw a certain Third Reich decoration. Since it was the only one in the collection with a swastika, I wondered if some dilettante would not one day purchase it and wear it for kicks. I hope I run into him so I can tell him that he's wearing the German Mother's Cross! And I wouldn't be surprised to see a burly cinematic German soldier doing the same one day . . .

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Kameraden
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Re: Who are the Uniform advisors in these films?

#7

Post by Kameraden » 20 Oct 2008, 11:58

Pax Melmacia wrote:In a neighborhood antiques store I saw a certain Third Reich decoration. Since it was the only one in the collection with a swastika, I wondered if some dilettante would not one day purchase it and wear it for kicks. I hope I run into him so I can tell him that he's wearing the German Mother's Cross! And I wouldn't be surprised to see a burly cinematic German soldier doing the same one day . . .

Yes...........................in Gold!!!! Gotta be the highest grade Lol!! :D

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Re: Who are the Uniform advisors in these films?

#8

Post by Dare Furor » 20 Oct 2008, 18:27

Uniform advisors are not usually worked into the budget. That would cost extra. So they end up being people like me, who start out as set costumers. As a set costumer, you are maybe a PFC: you have no say. You do not correct the Costume Designer any more than you tell your boss's boss's boss's boss how to run the business. As Capt. Dale Dye says, "I don't have time to argue (with re-enactors)." After a while, your immediate supervisors and co-workers see that you know something about uniforms (history) and they will ask you for help. They are not historians, they are Performing Arts majors: specialists in costuming (theatre/story-telling). But by the time they get to know you and ask, the earlier stuff is already in the can.

One example of storytelling: in the "Emmy Award-winning" HBO/Play-Tone mini-series, "John Adams," scenes of three navies were shot: British, French, and US. By showing a scene of sailors on a deck, how will the audience know whose ship they're on? None of those navies had uniforms at that time, or rather, all sailors looked the same. I was asked, "How did they know who the enemy was?" Well, the answer is, if the other ship is firing on you, they're probably the enemy.

Sometimes, they do try to do it right: again, "John Adams:" the costume designer looked-up "Henry Knox" who appears in the "Guns of Ticonderoga" scenes. The easiest picture to find shows him in a blue coat with buff facings (in the 1790s). She (the Costume Czarina), even researched Washington's General Order of July 1775, which stipulates that Major Generals wear purple sashes. Most Costume Designers don't do that much research. At the time of the trek to Ti, over the winter of 1775-76, Henry Knox was a colonel of artillery: blue coat with red facings. However, the actor had already been cast and his uniform made. There were no pictures of Henry Knox as an artillery colonel.

The Regimental Colours of the 35th Regiment in, "The Last Of The Mohicans," should have been buff. The Property Master knew this. The director knew this, too, but he wanted a blue flag. They spent $950.00 USD on a blue silk flag.

In The History Channel's, "The Revolution," we made sure we had early war and Burgoyne Campaign uniforms. They show us marching into Lexington in both: here we come marching in with cocked hats, and hey, here we come again in Burgoyne kit! Editors are not historians, nor are they costumers. They just thought, "this looks cool, let's put this in here."

For the Mount Vernon video, "We Fight To Be Free," we filmed the Battle of Monongahela during the Seven Years' War. The costume shop in Hollywood sent Rev War uniforms. There was no time to send them back and get the right stuff. Same thing with the 29th Foot in the Boston Massacre/Trial scenes in "John Adams." There were no transitional uniforms available, so Rev War were used, although F&I would have been more correct.

The SS Major in "Where Eagles Dare" had to be recognisable as "The SS Guy" in any scene, at any distance, and from a theatre/story-telling perspective, they put him in the political uniform.

Look at Capt. Kirk's SS insignia in that Star Trek episode. Someone said "Kirk has to be a captain, stick three pips on his collar patch." Someone did. This past summer I worked one day on the film "State Of Play." They had a US 3rd Infantry combat patch on sideways. It did not occur to them that things like patches go a certain distance from the seam, and that when you have diagonal stripes, one way is correct, but a quarter rotation is wrong. Same goes for a diamond-shaped patch like that of the US 4th Infantry Division.

Usually, there is no money allocated for a "uniform advisor" on these films. It does not occur to them that they need one, thus it does not occur to them to ask. I ask, but I'm always afraid of getting some little nuance wrong. These are reasons why I value this Forum, and why I usually ask, "Where can I find.....," so that I can see for myself, and document the findings.

So again, it does not occur to them that anything's amiss. Their job is to create a character; they're usually not historians. If they need a picture of an "SS Officer," where aere they going to go, and what are they going to see? Probably someone with a Knight's Cross (It looks so.....German).

"U-571" has no excuses.

Mein zwei pfennigs

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Kameraden
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Re: Who are the Uniform advisors in these films?

#9

Post by Kameraden » 21 Oct 2008, 16:28

Thank you for reply Dare Furor.
Very informative.

Another couple of errors from memory.

In The Guns of Navarone the SS Offcier who is going to hit Anthony Quayle's wounded leg with his pistol has no sleeve eagle.

In Downfall/Der Untergang Hermann Fegelein wears the uniform of a Brigadefuhrer and finished the war as a Gruppenfuhrer.Also he is only wearing the Oakleaves to his KC'but in reality had the swords too.

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Re: Who are the Uniform advisors in these films?

#10

Post by Dieter » 21 Oct 2008, 17:30

Kameraden wrote:In The Guns of Navarone the SS Offcier who is going to hit Anthony Quayle's wounded leg with his pistol has no sleeve eagle.

Nor did he wear shoulder boards, either. The only real "continuity goof" in that otherwise fine film was the scene where Anthony Quinn (wearing no medals) tears the back of Gia Scala's dress open to reveal no scars; where did he suddenly get a chest full of medals and ribbons from, which proptly disappear as she flings herself to the floor. :lol:

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Re: Who are the Uniform advisors in these films?

#11

Post by Kameraden » 21 Oct 2008, 17:35

Nedd to check out the shoulder boards.
Not seen it for about 10 years!! :D

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Re: Who are the Uniform advisors in these films?

#12

Post by Sid Guttridge » 21 Oct 2008, 17:41

Hi Guys,

While it is best to get even the smallest details right, in the greater scheme of things, do most such details really matter?

We have many of us acquired detailed information on some pretty arcane subjects, but just because we know a lot about them doesn't mean they are particularly significant.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: Who are the Uniform advisors in these films?

#13

Post by Dare Furor » 22 Oct 2008, 22:28

In "Real Life:" When Herr Dietrich shows up at Dinner at The Gap in January, he does not wear a gold embroidered SS eagle on his sleeve, but a gold embroidered Wehrmacht/Politcal eagle. I did look at photos of his father after that. His father wore the SS version. I was not about to correct him.

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Re: Who are the Uniform advisors in these films?

#14

Post by Michael Dorosh » 23 Oct 2008, 00:55

Kameraden wrote:Hi

Cross of Iron and James Coburns character has the Close Combat Clasp in gold.
Less than 700 of these were awarded and the recipient usually as awared this by Adolf Hitler personally.
The character of Steiner was based on a real life KC winner named Johann Schwerdfeger. He actually had the Knight's Cross with Oakleaves and two tank destruction badges, so in a sense the movie Steiner was under-decorated - though of course he did not get the Oakleaves until May 1944. The only photo I've seen of him, however, does not show any close combat bar, though given the action he'd seen, I'm sure he was entitled to at least the bronze class for time served if nothing else.

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Re: Who are the Uniform advisors in these films?

#15

Post by Lawrence » 25 Oct 2008, 21:20

I agree with Dare Furor. Most Costume/Set Designers really don't care about accuracy, at least not the way professional historians/history buffs do. I understand their plight actually. They are there to tell an interesting story and get the audience emotionally invested in the characters. Accurate uniforms are important, but nitpicking is something the average layman doesn't care about and might even find frustrating. For example, for me, it is important that say, in a WWII movie they correctly outfit SS men in SS uniforms and Heer in Heer uniforms. And if it's during the war, the SS should be wearing field-grey, not all black.

However, the average movie goer does not know any of this. We often forget how little people know or care about history. Especially from my generation (the last bit of X and beginning of Y). Most people will see 'Valkyrie' for action, not to expand their knowledge about the July 20th plot. But I digress.

Anyway, to think that the costume designers would really take into consideration the fact that fewer than five hundred Knights Crosses were issued to the SS isn't realistic. If it's an adventure movie like 'Guns of Navarone' then uniform accuracy isn't given top priority.

This also sometimes doesn't affect the quality of the movie as poorly as I used to think. Two examples; one is an East German film called 'the Gleiwitz Case'. The uniforms are totally inaccurate. It's August 1939 and SD officers are running around in all black uniforms with pre-1934 Totenkopfs on their caps and eagles that aren't the SS style. However, it's a thoroughly enjoyable movie. It's fast paced, has quick dialogue and good plotting.

Second example, 'Hitler's SS: Portrait in Evil'. The uniforms were all very accurate. Allgemeine SS wore numbers on the right collar, not the sig-runes and wore brown shirts underneath, not white. By the late 1930s, the full time Allgemeine SS were wearing field grey. SA were also very accurate. But the movie was awful. It was a sappy love triangle and tried to jam the years 1933-1945 in under an hour and a half worth of screen time.

Oh well.

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