Who are the Uniform advisors in these films?

[Michael Dorosh]

I agree with Dare Furor. Most Costume/Set Designers really don't care about accuracy, at least not the way professional historians/history buffs do.

How many have you ever met and/or talked to? I've interacted with several on a professional basis. I'm quite certain you're completely wrong on this, but if you've ever met one, perhaps they are not the same ones I've talked to.

[Lawrence]

I have a friend, who I haven't talked to in a while, who does costumes for broadway. In regards to uniforms, I remember asking her about historical accuracy and she basically told me that budget constrictions come first. But as far as big budget Hollywood costume/set designer, no I'm afraid not.

Secondly, I didn't mean that costume designers don't care at all about historical accuracy. Of course the average costume designer for a World War II movie will know the difference between a Heer and SS uniform. However, I've never seen a movie, aside from 'Hitler's SS: Portrait in Evil', which correctly shows Allgemeine SS men wearing numbers on their right collars instead of the sig runes. In other big budget movies, such as 'Where Eagles Dare' and 'Bridge at Remagen', Allgemeine SS men are wearing the black uniforms with sig-runes. As we all know, this was no trivial detail for the SS, but a major uniform regulation which told what branch of the SS organization one belonged to. It'd be like making a movie about average US Army infantrymen, but instead of black berets, they wear green.

Of course, this is one example, however a telling one. However, I'm sure it's a tough job, and one that I wouldn't want!

[Michael Dorosh]

I have a friend, who I haven't talked to in a while, who does costumes for broadway. In regards to uniforms, I remember asking her about historical accuracy and she basically told me that budget constrictions come first. But as far as big budget Hollywood costume/set designer, no I'm afraid not.

Secondly, I didn't mean that costume designers don't care at all about historical accuracy. Of course the average costume designer for a World War II movie will know the difference between a Heer and SS uniform. However, I've never seen a movie, aside from 'Hitler's SS: Portrait in Evil', which correctly shows Allgemeine SS men wearing numbers on their right collars instead of the sig runes. In other big budget movies, such as 'Where Eagles Dare' and 'Bridge at Remagen', Allgemeine SS men are wearing the black uniforms with sig-runes. As we all know, this was no trivial detail for the SS, but a major uniform regulation which told what branch of the SS organization one belonged to. It'd be like making a movie about average US Army infantrymen, but instead of black berets, they wear green.

Of course, this is one example, however a telling one. However, I'm sure it's a tough job, and one that I wouldn't want!

I agree with your last sentence!

And your second one - budget is a huge concern. You know what the road to hell is paved with...but sometimes it's not even budget. I've participated in television and motion picture work, including sending large pieces of my personal collection at great cost to the film company, often to see little of the advice given by myself and others show up on screen. But the guys I interacted with really showed a keenness to getting it right. You're completely right when you say "it's a tough job" but I think the problem is, there are so many different jobs being done simultaneously, and so many different priorities. So the director says "we need an SS guy for Scene 87" and by the time the uniform schmuck has a clue what kind of "SS guy" anyone is talking about (despite having the script in his hands), maybe the script was changed and maybe costuming sent the wrong thing, and you just go with what you've got or spend 500,000 dollars holding up shooting for a week to wait for a repro tunic to come in with the right badges...

I think one has to concentrate more on what those films manage to get right, to be honest. The Bridge at Remagen is a great example. It's one of my favourites because it gets everything right. I don't care about the SS uniforms, or the post-war Czech halftrack, or the mid-war Wehrmacht uniforms, or the fact there should be Pershing tanks at the battle, or that the first guy over the bridge was really named Drabik or the first officer was really Timmermann and not Hartmann. I thought the movie was inhabited by realistic characters, on both sides of the lines (a rare thing even today in war films), who actually got their uniforms dirty, said unglorious things, were tired, uninterested in this hugely historic event they were taking part in and really unaware of what was going on. Moreover, the equipment and uniforms were all for the most part accurate, if not to the actual battle, then at least to the period. The music was terrific and suited to the film, the action was mostly realistic (save for the silly barge scene), the dialogue was terse and appropriate (the brief scene of nudity was pointless and unfortunate, though) and overall, I think that movie is one of the gems from an era of really bad over-the-top "war movies" ranging from the jingoistic cartoon heroism of The Green Berets to the utterly history bending mockumentary star-driven extravaganzas like The Great Escape (which was actually pretty good when it stuck to talking about the British airmen who actually escaped from the place and not Steve McQueen and his 1960s motorcycle).

As far as The Bridge at Remagen goes, any movie which shows a German officer in sunglasses instead of a monocle and a fake arm gets a pass from me, even if his medals are a bit off. But only a bit. My point? They got so much of the feel of 1945 Germany down, that it seems unfair to criticize for minor bits of uniform etiquette, that if the SS uniforms are wrong, yes, it is annoying, but it doesn't invalidate the movie for me.

But there's something else to consider.

Did you notice in Cross of Iron that Colonel Brandt wears his Crimea Shield on the wrong arm? Look at this picture of the Knight's Cross winner that Cross of Iron's Steiner is based on, and tell me which arm he is wearing his tank destruction badges on. Stuff happens - even in real life.

[Dare Furor]

... Look at this picture of the Knight's Cross winner that Cross of Iron's Steiner is based on, and tell me which arm he is wearing his tank destruction badges on. Stuff happens - even in real life.

It would be in the Regulations, but perhaps if he has a badge on his right sleeve, such as a Jäger or Gebirgs badge....still, how would your average costume designer know to ask?

"Steiner's" gold close combat award sets him above the others, just as Krüger's Soviet cap. "Costumes" are symbolic representations of the character.

Here's one: you're doing the musical "Cabaret," or "The Sound Of Music." You need SA uniforms. Are your average high school/summer stock directors/costume designers ( and I mean "the rule, not the exception") going to know enough to ask, " ..well, this takes place in Berlin/Salzurg in 19--, what colour should the top of the cap be?" Probably not.

Dare Furor
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[Michael Dorosh]

It would be in the Regulations, but perhaps if he has a badge on his right sleeve, such as a Jäger or Gebirgs badge....still, how would your average costume designer know to ask?

Ah, good point. He was in a Jäger Regiment, and so would presumably have had that insignia on the other sleeve.

Incidentally, my favourite continuity slip (not the same as a uniform error) is in Bridge at Remagen - watch Major Kreuger's cap cords in the scene in the tunnel just after he shoots the deserters. In between camera cuts, the cords visibly move on his cap.

[Pax Melmacia]

I recall a letter sent to the editors of the comic book "Sgt. Rock'. (That should tell you how old I am.) The writer (could be even one of you guys) remarked that Joe Kubert's covers often depicted German infantrymen in swastika armbands and blue uniforms, a gross inacurracy. The editor (don't recall if it was Kubert, too) responded that the blue uniform was due to the limitations of comic-book color printing, whilst the armband was for less-informed readers who wouldn't be able to tell one uniform from, another.

(Interestingly, the feature story in one issue featured the artwork of the inestimable Russ Heath, and depicted (IIRC) fairly accurate SS uniforms with close-enough colors.)

[Lawrence]

I recall a letter sent to the editors of the comic book "Sgt. Rock'. (That should tell you how old I am.) The writer (could be even one of you guys) remarked that Joe Kubert's covers often depicted German infantrymen in swastika armbands and blue uniforms, a gross inacurracy. The editor (don't recall if it was Kubert, too) responded that the blue uniform was due to the limitations of comic-book color printing, whilst the armband was for less-informed readers who wouldn't be able to tell one uniform from, another.

(Interestingly, the feature story in one issue featured the artwork of the inestimable Russ Heath, and depicted (IIRC) fairly accurate SS uniforms with close-enough colors.)

I don't know about the explanation about the blue uniforms. I read a few old Sgt. Rock comics and I distinctly remember his uniform being green. It would make a lot more sense to have the German uniforms colored green too, since many Waffenrocks were a shade of dark green, rather than light blue. Sgt. Fury comics were even worse in their errors, but what do you expect? It's a dumb comic book.

[slacky]

a little story
9 years ago i used to do extra work on tv and films mainly medievil to 15th century . but i person who did costumes ask me to borrow them a english officers uniforms for band of brothers for filming the asked me to check the german uniforms was ok for the flming unforunatly i didn't do it as i found my son had c.d.g and autistic
what f--ked my head up and i stoped doing acting .. in a way now i wish i did it but then was another time i still get asked but now im to old to swing a sword lol or is it to unfit ?
my 12 year old son does it now and on english tv channel bbc1 next feb until april on a satuday morning program called socerers appentice 3 look out for it

[Michael Dorosh]

I don't know about the explanation about the blue uniforms. I read a few old Sgt. Rock comics and I distinctly remember his uniform being green. It would make a lot more sense to have the German uniforms colored green too, since many Waffenrocks were a shade of dark green, rather than light blue. Sgt. Fury comics were even worse in their errors, but what do you expect? It's a dumb comic book.

The Germans were in blue so you could tell the bad guys from the good guys. Not rocket science, guys...contrasting colours are used for a reason in such cases. Even in the desert issues. Even then, guys would write in to complain - standard reply was "yeah, we'll draw guys in tan uniforms, fighting guys in tan uniforms, on a tan background. Why are you buying this comic book again?"

It's also why Rock lost his shirt (Fury was worse) even when there was a snowstorm...

[Penn44]

The following factors influence historical accuracy within a film:

1) Budget,
2) Profitability (tied in with 1 and the other factors),
3) Director's commitment to historical accuracy,
4) Concerns for linear flow of the storyline,
5) Concerns for "dramatic effect,"
6) Concern for conveying a "message,"
7) [General] audience preconceptions or expectations of the event,
8) Availability of historically accurate items.

There are no doubt other factors involved, but the above ones are the main ones.

Penn44

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[Michael Dorosh]

The following factors influence historical accuracy within a film:

1) Budget,
2) Profitability (tied in with 1 and the other factors),
3) Director's commitment to historical accuracy,
4) Concerns for linear flow of the storyline,
5) Concerns for "dramatic effect,"
6) Concern for conveying a "message,"
7) [General] audience preconceptions or expectations of the event,
8) Availability of historically accurate items.

There are no doubt other factors involved, but the above ones are the main ones.

Do you have a source for this?

Profitability? I think that's a stretch as far as uniforms goes (it holds water as far as location (Windtalkers was shot in Hawaii and not Saipan for a reason)), and I'll explain why.

I've worked with the film industry on several projects because of a reputation as a contact in the military history field. I don't think there's any set "formula" nor is anything nearly as organized as this list would suggest. Movie making seems very chaotic. In fact, very often a production will go to great expense to obtain the correct badges for a film and they'll sit in the costume department unused. I know. I've provided them before. It's not something that will make people change minds at the box office, nor impact the bottom line of the film.

Each production approaches the subject differently; visual design can play an important part in the story telling - colour palettes can be incorporated into the mood of the piece, for example. When I was an extra on Legends of the Fall, I was told to remove a whistle lanyard during a close-up scene because it was bright and contrasted with the uniform; it was authentic to the period but it stood out too much and had to go. One of the ADAs had picked up on it at random. Other films are more serious about that kind of tone-setting. There's all kinds of reasons to have this uniform or that uniform and they sometimes transcend historical accuracy, and it all changes from film to film.

"Profitability" is something that's very rarely heard amongst people doing research regarding military uniforms. Again, I hate to generalize, but once a production has committed to doing something authentically, the statement most often heard is "let's do this right" as opposed to "what's this going to cost". Which doesn't mean it happens, of course, for a variety of reasons as we've discussed, it just means that profitablity isn't the stumbling block.

[Penn44]

The following factors influence historical accuracy within a film:

1) Budget,
2) Profitability (tied in with 1 and the other factors),
3) Director's commitment to historical accuracy,
4) Concerns for linear flow of the storyline,
5) Concerns for "dramatic effect,"
6) Concern for conveying a "message,"
7) [General] audience preconceptions or expectations of the event,
8) Availability of historically accurate items.

There are no doubt other factors involved, but the above ones are the main ones.

Do you have a source for this?

Myself. As I have worked as an Associate Producer, Senior Historical Researcher/Consultant, and Military Advisor for an ****** Award winning film director, and I am mentioned in the Internet Movie Database. I knew was in the right place, right time, and knew the right subject, and I got the job.

Penn44

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[Michael Dorosh]

The following factors influence historical accuracy within a film:

1) Budget,
2) Profitability (tied in with 1 and the other factors),
3) Director's commitment to historical accuracy,
4) Concerns for linear flow of the storyline,
5) Concerns for "dramatic effect,"
6) Concern for conveying a "message,"
7) [General] audience preconceptions or expectations of the event,
8) Availability of historically accurate items.

There are no doubt other factors involved, but the above ones are the main ones.

Do you have a source for this?

Myself. As I have worked as an Associate Producer, Senior Historical Researcher/Consultant, and Military Advisor for an ****** Award winning film director, and I am mentioned in the Internet Movie Database. I knew was in the right place, right time, and knew the right subject, and I got the job.

Penn44

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So what's your name? If you're going to use yourself as a source, that would be of interest.

I'd be interested to now how often "profitability" really influenced a decision to wear or not wear a badge on a uniform in some of the projects you've worked on (incidentally - which ones?) I'm having a hard time making a connection between the two. Maybe I'm being too literal in my interpretation of the comments, but it seemed to me the conversation we were having was specifically geared towards uniform advisors and some of the decision making process surrounding why so many bad looking military uniforms end up on screen.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you meant by profitability though, also, and you could expand on how it relates to the specific area of uniform advisors.

[bil]

I would agree with Penn.His list covers the main reasons,not nessesarily in order.In each situation,the order and priorities change.What is considered important one day may be forgotten the next.That is one industry where time is a lot of money.Even in documentaries these restrictions affect historical accuracy. ---bil

[Penn44]

So what's your name? If you're going to use yourself as a source, that would be of interest.

Bond ... James Bond.

I'd be interested to now how often "profitability" really influenced a decision to wear or not wear a badge on a uniform in some of the projects you've worked on (incidentally - which ones?) I'm having a hard time making a connection between the two. Maybe I'm being too literal in my interpretation of the comments, but it seemed to me the conversation we were having was specifically geared towards uniform advisors and some of the decision making process surrounding why so many bad looking military uniforms end up on screen.

See my William Shatner quote below.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you meant by profitability though, also, and you could expand on how it relates to the specific area of uniform advisors.

Why expend the money to hire "uniform advisors" or obtain accurate uniforms with all the awards when less expensive routes are available. If you are going to go hire "uniform advisors," why not hire "place setting advisors" for the dinner scenes, or "scrubbery advisors" for the landscape scenes. The vast majority of film viewer won't know the difference. It may upset the more obsessive among the viewers, but they've already paid the admission price so screw them. Directors are always getting some critcism from somebody so what makes the uniform fanatics any different? Remember the SNL sketch in which William Shatner tell the Trekkies to "get a life." That sentiment is often echoed by directors towards this particular type of movie goers.

Penn44

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