How historically accurate was Saving Private Ryan?

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Jeremy Chan
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#61

Post by Jeremy Chan » 24 Mar 2005, 10:07

Well, many of my opinions on SPR have been discussed on various threads, but I recently thought that the shooting of the Germans attempting to surrender at Omaha Beach, and GIs yelling, "Don't shoot -- let 'em burn!" while flushing out a bunker with a flamethrower, and "Steamboat Wille's" abuse by Miller's men, proved the bias wasn't all against the Germans. That said, how much do moviegoers know of the Geneva Convention.
Apparently, the Tigers used during the Ramelle skirmish were actually mocked-up T-34s. 8O
And did any of you guys notice the T-5, Upham's constant reprimanding by Mellish, a private? While Mellish was a "front-swine", does reprimanding one who outranks you even occur in the US military??
BAZ wrote:Yup, Platoon was a serious movie!!!
Don't forget, Platoon was more down-to-earth, more personal. Seeing as Oliver Stone did serve in Vietnam, you'd feel more at home seeing this.
Doppleganger wrote:
finnjaeger wrote:I still think that the combat performance of these germans is very poor. From most of the time they pack in herds, stand straight, don´t fire and when they should at the end finally charge to the bridge, then they finally lay down and start shooting (and none goes for the bridge).

best regards, TK
The combat performance of German units in Normandy was in many cases poor as by 1944 the quality of manpower replacements received by even 'elite' units was very uneven. It is possible that an SS unit that had just received a particularly poor batch of replacements could have wandered into that village without laying down any supression fire ect ect. However, I still think that troops with even only 2 weeks training (as some German replacements were receiving), unless they were stupid or suicidal, would not have just sauntered into the village like they did in SPR.
Don't forget that the Channel Coast was mostly held with ex-Soviet Ostbattailons, many of whom were fairly unwilling, of spurious competence. Merely meant to soak up an invasion, you must remember they were held on a 'non-priority' area, that is, one that's not seriously engaged. With the Waffen-SS, while orginally an elite in intention, don't forget by 1944, anything from conscripts from Volksdeutschen to whole units were transferred en masse, within each service even. So a unit even in the 'classic' SS-armoured divisions would be injected with transfers from the Luftwaffe, for example.
Of course troop quality by that stage was at best, dubious, with even Hitler's W-SS favourites, wavering in the field. Morale also played a part. The point is even newbies rushed through basic training would have the sense to aviod fire. The problem with facing the Americans is that they just have infinite resources to bear. While a landser would be forced to cower in in his foxhole and snap of one or two shots, his section in disarray, a GI could just sit back and shoot and shoot. The Americans could call on artillery and air support and expected the best of everything.
Of course Hollywood loves to show 'Nazi soldiers' being routed by the heroic GIs, with the former indulging in massacre, rape and pillage when they can. The GI appears to have the upper hand when he does in 10+ 'Nazis'.
Cheers. :?

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finnjaeger
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#62

Post by finnjaeger » 24 Mar 2005, 10:45

It indeed seems (not just in SPR) that ww2 movies tryes to show germans with the superiority in men, tanks and plains, when it actually was other way around. Also, after watching the SPR movie few times the end of the movie starts to look funny. When the germans finally reach the bridge and get attacked by planes and see those US reinforcements arrive, they start to run away in big numbers giving away their positions without a fight. Now, doesn´t that look like the old western movies when the cavalry arrives with horns blowing, flags waving in the air and the indians run away and the heroes get to take a deep breath and say "phew, that was close"?

best regards, TK


Brandenburger
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#63

Post by Brandenburger » 25 Mar 2005, 17:17

Heres a german critic, ist very good in my oppinion but i cant translate it. Short: I find the film Saving Private Ryan in the most time absurd. The only good scene is in the beginning the landing. I was surprised because they show even war crimes of american soldiers as shooting germans that have given up with hands up. That was realitiy in many cases for example here:
http://www.cjb.cc/members/geschichte/film/d-pow.htm


So I though it could be a very good film but after the landing at omaha the film was only funny and absurd bad.

http://www.cjb.cc/members/geschichte/film/d-ryan.htm

„Der aufwendige Film über die Rettung vom Leben des Bryan (englisch: Saving Private Ryan) aus Steven Spielbergs Filmschmiede ist nicht den historischen Fakten des Themas gewidmet, sondern der Selbstbeweihräucherung einer Nation, die sich in Filmphantasien ihre Vergangenheit selbst erfindet.“

Thats exaktly my opinion. There are many much better films than this.

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Hans Kloss
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#64

Post by Hans Kloss » 25 Mar 2005, 20:22


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finnjaeger
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#65

Post by finnjaeger » 25 Mar 2005, 21:21

Thanks for the translation page Hans Kloss, with my poor language skill in german it was hard to try to read the first text, mein deutch ist nicht so gut. Good article.

Best regards, TK

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Richard Hedlund
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#66

Post by Richard Hedlund » 25 Mar 2005, 22:32

Yes, a great article. Told a lot of truth as well. As my history teacher told my class: If you want to see a war movie, don't see Hollywood.

/Richard

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Hans Kloss
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#67

Post by Hans Kloss » 25 Mar 2005, 23:48

Thanks for the translation page Hans Kloss, with my poor language skill in german it was hard to try to read the first text, mein deutch ist nicht so gut. Good article.

Best regards, TK
Mein Deutsch is sehr schlecht :D

anyway...there is more "SPR" related stuff to be read there...click "Leser Briefe" button

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Tom Houlihan
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#68

Post by Tom Houlihan » 26 Mar 2005, 09:16

Brandenburger, thanks for the article. Hans, vielen Danke for the translation! I thought it was a pretty good article. I found a couple of points that I'd take issue with, but it was well written, and definitely worth reading.

I still think that some forum member who is obscenely wealthy needs to set up a company, hire a bunch of us, and start making authentic WWII movies. Schnert can be in charge of the costuming department!

PanzerMonkey
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#69

Post by PanzerMonkey » 26 Mar 2005, 11:30

finnjaeger wrote:It indeed seems (not just in SPR) that ww2 movies tryes to show germans with the superiority in men, tanks and plains, when it actually was other way around. Also, after watching the SPR movie few times the end of the movie starts to look funny. When the germans finally reach the bridge and get attacked by planes and see those US reinforcements arrive, they start to run away in big numbers giving away their positions without a fight. Now, doesn´t that look like the old western movies when the cavalry arrives with horns blowing, flags waving in the air and the indians run away and the heroes get to take a deep breath and say "phew, that was close"?

best regards, TK
You mean like in the episode of Band of Brothers (the 3rd episode, I think), where the 101st is holding a line and is being attacked by 2 StuG IIIs, a Jagdpanther, a couple of Sd Kfz 251s, and a Sd Kfz 222, and suddenly a parade line of Shermans appear and scare all the Germans away. That had me laughing :lol: .

I hope that I will be able to see one honest German war flick in my lifetime.

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Hans Kloss
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#70

Post by Hans Kloss » 26 Mar 2005, 11:56


I still think that some forum member who is obscenely wealthy needs to set up a company, hire a bunch of us, and start making authentic WWII movies. Schnert can be in charge of the costuming department
I'm with you on that one Tom ! I'm sure we would have done better job :D
Here is somewhere where we can get our gear from :

http://www.1944militaria.com/
I hope that I will be able to see one honest German war flick in my lifetime
Well,they have made good start with this film

http://www.ihffilm.com/steeltempest.html

Brandenburger
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#71

Post by Brandenburger » 26 Mar 2005, 15:27

I hope that I will be able to see one honest German war flick in my lifetime.
In my opinion the following films were good:

Die Brücke

Steiner – Das Eiserne Kreuz Teil 1 (but only the part 1)

What do you mean about that two ?

taltos
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#72

Post by taltos » 26 Mar 2005, 16:38

PanzerMonkey wrote:
finnjaeger wrote:It indeed seems (not just in SPR) that ww2 movies tryes to show germans with the superiority in men, tanks and plains, when it actually was other way around. Also, after watching the SPR movie few times the end of the movie starts to look funny. When the germans finally reach the bridge and get attacked by planes and see those US reinforcements arrive, they start to run away in big numbers giving away their positions without a fight. Now, doesn´t that look like the old western movies when the cavalry arrives with horns blowing, flags waving in the air and the indians run away and the heroes get to take a deep breath and say "phew, that was close"?

best regards, TK
You mean like in the episode of Band of Brothers (the 3rd episode, I think), where the 101st is holding a line and is being attacked by 2 StuG IIIs, a Jagdpanther, a couple of Sd Kfz 251s, and a Sd Kfz 222, and suddenly a parade line of Shermans appear and scare all the Germans away. That had me laughing :lol: .

Actually I think thet really happened, at least in more general terms.

blueboyukb
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#73

Post by blueboyukb » 26 Mar 2005, 17:08

regarding BOB, i would heartily recommend that everybody should read the book before watching the series again. then you appreciate just how nearly every incident in the series actually did happen, no matter how ridiculous some of the events seem.

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Lucas**Shep
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#74

Post by Lucas**Shep » 26 Mar 2005, 22:36

regarding BOB, i would heartily recommend that everybody should read the book before watching the series again. then you appreciate just how nearly every incident in the series actually did happen, no matter how ridiculous some of the events seem.
I have read the book and as a story or account it is very good, but as a historical reference in my opinion it is rubbish and i would never quote it as a source of fact. The thing with this particular work by Ambrose is that he does not bother to get any opinions of persons who fought with easy coy or those that fought against them so you are left with only the testimony of the members, and of course they are not going to say that they were crap. The saying "Oh they're good just ask them they'll tell you" comes to mind. The other thing is that you have to trust that the author has written what they said in the spirit in which is was said without putting his own spin on it which I'm afraid i don't think has happened here, again in my opinion it would seem that Ambrose has had a preconcieved idea about easy company and has not approached the work objectively, it is very hard to find one criticism of them in the book. Please don't get me wrong I loved the series, I am not anti American but when researching a topic you do need to read as widely as you can to get a objective view on what has happened, it is the first thing they teach you in University study, in fact in high school level history.

Now I am not saying that the events did not happen the way they were described, in fact I hope for the sake of the members of easy that everything did happened like that but alot can change between an actual event that happened 60 years ago to an interview in a vets house over coffee and then translated on the small screen for the modern public.
My advice would be don't believe everything you read unless you read the same thing in more than one source.
What would be really interesting would be to get an interview from the other side and see what they had to say.

PanzerMonkey
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#75

Post by PanzerMonkey » 27 Mar 2005, 08:33

blueboyukb wrote:regarding BOB, i would heartily recommend that everybody should read the book before watching the series again. then you appreciate just how nearly every incident in the series actually did happen, no matter how ridiculous some of the events seem.
I have seen numerous sites that have talked about the inconsistencies and false facts that were put forth in Band of Brothers (by Stephen E. Ambrose). So saying "it happened in the book" doesn't make it true.

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