Fictitious K.u.K. Battle Cruiser “SANKT JAKOBUS“

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Tanzania
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Fictitious K.u.K. Battle Cruiser “SANKT JAKOBUS“

Post by Tanzania » 25 Apr 2021 09:26

Fictitious K.u.K. Battle Cruiser “SANKT JAKOBUS“

Years ago I was in the hospital without my hardware sources and only had a picture of the St.Jakobus
model saved, which I found fascinating. Before I accidentally throw it away, I'll show you here.

Fictitious development of the K.u.K. Battleship designs `Ersatz Monarch´ / `Improved Tegetthoff´ class.
In this case as a fictitious Battle-Cruiser with the same main armament: 10 x 35 cm/45 (13.79") K14 Škoda

Be aware, it was only, “JUST FOR FUN“ (- :thumbsup: -)

01_K.u.K Battle Cruiser `SANKT JAKOBUS´.jpg
Source: http://steelnavy.com/WinkelStJakobus.htm

02_K.u.K. Schlachtkreuzer `Sankt Jakobus´.png
Cheers Holger
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Re: Fictitious K.u.K. Battle Cruiser “SANKT JAKOBUS“

Post by Tanzania » 26 Apr 2021 19:25

Since I found this topic very interesting, I continued later with the designs and graphics for a while, and found
further information in the book: “Kreuzer und Kreuzerprojekte der K.u.K. Kriegsmarine 1889-1918” Erwin Sieche, 2002

Project VII Heavy Cruiser

This design of a heavily armed cruiser was first proposed for the Technical Committee of the Navy by Franz Pitzinger in
1917 and approve at the 1. August 1918. It is interesting that this design emerged shortly after the British Hawkins Class
Cruiser were launched and it is logical that the two navy’s designers concluded the same experiences from war lessons.

03_Schwerer Kreuzer_Projekt VII_184,50m.png

I have adjusted the design a little. Originally only three twin towers with 19-cm guns were planned.
The K.u.K. Haevy Cruisers “MÁTYÁS CORVINUS” (and his Sister ship “JANOS HUNYADI”)

04_K.u.K. Haevy Cruisers “MÁTYÁS CORVINUS” .png

Cheers Holger
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Re: Fictitious K.u.K. Battle Cruiser “SANKT JAKOBUS“

Post by pikeshot1600 » 08 Jul 2021 20:30

Very interesting subject. I am not sure how seriously the Technical Committee would have considered such a "project." Prior to 1914, the navy had discarded the concept of the battle cruiser. The geography of the Adriatic was not conducive to tactical use of this ship type, and no project that diverted funds from the construction of battleships was considered in the interests of the navy.

War experience had indicated - from 1916 - that the CB was seriously under armored and vulnerable to the increasingly heavy naval artillery coming into use. Still interesting - I am a fan of historical steel navies, and also of "what-if" fleets.

The cruiser sketch above would seem to be almost a "pocket battleship" idea with the 6 x 24 cm guns. That strategic thinking, as with Germany's Deutschland class, mostly centered on commerce raiding, and it sort of "went out with the horse-and-buggy" around 1905. The K.u.K. navy abandoned armored cruisers after the SMS Sankt Georg.

Aside from "other navies have 'em," I don't see a reason for these heavy cruisers - but this is

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Re: Fictitious K.u.K. Battle Cruiser “SANKT JAKOBUS“

Post by pikeshot1600 » 09 Jul 2021 20:43

^^ addition to post #3. The edit function time expired.

...but this is just for fun.

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Re: Fictitious K.u.K. Battle Cruiser “SANKT JAKOBUS“

Post by Tanzania » 11 Jul 2021 08:26

pikeshot1600 wrote:
08 Jul 2021 20:30
The geography of the Adriatic was not conducive to tactical use of this ship type, and no project that diverted funds from the construction of battleships was considered in the interests of the navy.
Here I agree with you 100%. Geographically, the Adriatic was a very unfortunate special case.

pikeshot1600 wrote:
08 Jul 2021 20:30
. . . Apart from "other navies have them" I see no reason for this heavy cruiser. . .
Here I could imagine that a heavy cruiser type supporting a light cruiser squadron, could temporarily break
the Otranto barrier, and would successfully operate in the South-Eastern Mediterranean. As a retreat, however,
only Constantinople would probably be open.



Here are more realistic and also fictional A-H ship designs: An Alternate Austro-Hungarian Navy – Shipbucket.com
Also the original Design of the Heavy Cruiser Project VII (Ersatz “PANTHER” Class?)
http://www.shipbucket.com/forums/viewto ... 74711d14eb



I looked again on my external hard drive. Here my last fictional design of a Light Cruiser Type of the “Port-City Class”
(Whereby the dimensions correspond exactly to the design of Silvius Morin's variant in 1918! And as far as I can
remember the 15-cm-S.K. was also proposed as twin-tower version for the design for the China-Cruiser-Version.)

05_K.u.K. Light Cruiser Class “CATTARO”.png

Back then it was fun for me to just go for it - to design with some phantasy.

Cheers Holger
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Re: Fictitious K.u.K. Battle Cruiser “SANKT JAKOBUS“

Post by pikeshot1600 » 01 Sep 2021 22:46

@Tanzania,

Holger, I sort of lost touch with this thread. Looking at post #3 and the Austrian move away from armored cruisers, I had an additional thought.

Although the big cruisers were no longer being built, the newest two that were with the fleet did provide needed fire support in the Adriatic when destroyers and sea going torpedo boats were involved (also for the light cruisers late in the war). The British experience with battle cruisers was not promising, but having a replacement(s) for the aging SMS Kaiser Karl VI (comm. 1900) and SMS Sankt Georg (1905) may well have been a recognition that having a couple of these ships was better then not having them. Their 24 cm guns and also secondary 19cm (St. Georg) proved a valuable support for torpedo forces and cruisers operations.

I think I recall a design for another "heavy cruiser" Ersatz Panther, but I don't remember where.

They would probably not have been employed tactically out of the Adriatic, but their presence with the fleet, supporting light forces, could enhance the continuing strategy, denying control of the Adriatic to another navy. In peacetime, they might have been good diplomatic assets. However, the demise of the Empire made such ship designs just engineering exercises (drawings are cheap). Too bad.

Your thoughts?

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Re: Fictitious K.u.K. Battle Cruiser “SANKT JAKOBUS“

Post by pikeshot1600 » 06 Sep 2021 16:16

pikeshot1600 wrote:
01 Sep 2021 22:46
@Tanzania,

Holger,

I think I recall a design for another "heavy cruiser" Ersatz Panther, but I don't remember where.
Oops....it was on the shipbucket.com website that I saw Ersatz Panther, evidently an actual projection as Project VII (you mentioned the ship above).

That design was a typical late k.u.k. configuration with quite minimal superstructure. The Corvinus/Hunyadi design shown ^^ has a WW II look. Nice ship.

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Re: Fictitious K.u.K. Battle Cruiser “SANKT JAKOBUS“

Post by Tanzania » 08 Sep 2021 17:08

Hi pikeshot,

I paid less attention to the tactical or strategic background.
Back then, I created the drawings more out of the joy of design;
of course with a few details that create a realistic basis.

Here is one of the last jobs; - because the K.u.K. Navy needs also air support on sea in 1920!

07_K.u.K. Sea Carrier and Flying boat cruiser.png
Cheers Holger
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Re: Fictitious K.u.K. Battle Cruiser “SANKT JAKOBUS“

Post by pikeshot1600 » 10 Sep 2021 15:37

Holger,

Very cool aircraft/seaplane carriers. That would have made the Italians pay attention to the carrier long before they did.

The Adriatic most likely would have made the CV moot as almost all of it was within range of most aircraft in 1920. The rapid development of military aviation through the 1920-1935 period might have made the CV another "fleet-in-being" asset as most major navies became aware of the potential of naval air power. I am not so sure the k.u.k. Km could have retained its position in the Adriatic as in 1914-1918 as aircraft were of course beginning to eclipse the battleship as the more important weapons system.

I like your designs and the technical detail and artistry. It might be fun to design, name and organize an entire post 1918 k.u.k. fleet! (I would also like to see dockyard plans at Spalato and at Cattaro and what ships would be based there :) )

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Re: Fictitious K.u.K. Battle Cruiser “SANKT JAKOBUS“

Post by Tanzania » 24 Sep 2021 13:50

pikeshot1600 wrote:
10 Sep 2021 15:37
I would also like to see dockyard plans at Spalato and at Cattaro and what ships would be based there :) )
Here I can show you which ships were anchored in Cattaro at the end of August 1919 after the first attack against
The Suez-Channel, Port Said and Alexandria. In addition to the II. K.u.K. Battle-Cruiser Squadron, the German navy
were also be able to send reinforcements to the Mediterranean in advance, to start operations from Bocche di Cattaro.

The 3rd German Cruiser-Group comprised the Battle-Cruiser SMS `Von der Golz´, his sister ship SMS `Tirpitz´ and
SMS `Clausewitz´ (see below). The light cruisers SMS `Königsberg (II)´, SMS `Frankfurt´ and SMS `Breslau (II)´
were also with the association.

08_German Battle Cruisers_August 1919 in Cattaro.png
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Re: Fictitious K.u.K. Battle Cruiser “SANKT JAKOBUS“

Post by Tanzania » 24 Sep 2021 13:55

Furthermore, the Aircraft Mother-ship SMS `Albatross´, which with six giant flying-boats, Dornier Rs.I 3H could
deliver very valuable results in long-range reconnaissance (see below)
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dornier_Rs_I . . . https://flyingmachines.ru/Site2/Crafts/Craft25832.htm

09_German Seaplane Mother-Ship_August 1919 in Cattaro.png

10_German Dornier Gs.I_Giant flying-boat.jpg
Source: https://i.pinimg.com/originals/90/c6/3d ... 1f4ba7.jpg

Cheers Holger
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