wasnt the red in the german flag from the austrian Hapsburg?

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Nagelfar
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wasnt the red in the german flag from the austrian Hapsburg?

Post by Nagelfar » 19 Jan 2003 05:19

the black and white were from Prussia, but the red in the german flag was taken from the Hapsburg dynasty, correct? is this true of the Weimar flag as well? anybody have information on the connection to Imperial Austria and its symbology in the german nation?

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Post by Karl » 20 Jan 2003 03:39

I have never heard that the red in the German flag is in anyway connected to the Habsburg flag. The red in the Habsburg flag is however taken from the Holy Roman Empire Flag and this is maybe what the German flag has incorporated (but I doubt this very much)?

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Post by Nagelfar » 20 Jan 2003 04:55

hmm, I cant remember or find where I read it now. But I did read in a book about heraldry & flag origins that the german flag took its red color from a time when the Hapsburgs had some control over germany, and that it represented a formative part in the nation. though it was only from one source so I wasnt sure how true it was.

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Post by Karl » 20 Jan 2003 17:11

That's interesting. It would be great if you have more info on this. Next time I'm in the library I'll have a look around too.

So long.

Karl

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Mike K.
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Post by Mike K. » 21 Jan 2003 09:08

A girl told me the colors of the Weimar flag stood for "Out of darkness, through bloodshed, into sunshine."

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Post by viriato » 21 Jan 2003 14:11

About the Austrian flag (red-white-red) it has been in use since 1230 according to:

http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/at.html

The red in the German flag has however a different origin. According to:

http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/de.html

The black-red-gold is historically associated with "liberal" nationalism in Germany, rather than republicanism per se. It was first adopted by the Frankfurt Parliament in 1848 for the proposed united German Empire. That the 1870 German Empire went for a flag asserting north German traditions (the black and white of Prussia with the white and red of the Hanseatic League) was due to Bismarck wanting a Kleindeutschland [smaller Germany] solution — excluding the Austrian lands, rather than the Frankfurt liberals' Grossdeutschland [greater Germany] which would have included the Austrian lands within the old German Confederation.

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Rot-Weiss-Rot

Post by Karl » 23 Jan 2003 03:50

Regarding the Red-White-Red of the Habsburgs...

Well now I am intriqued. Yes, I have heard of the myth...but that is only what it is, a myth. As to the red being taken from the Holy Roman Empire flag, I can't seem to recall where I first read that, but until now I always took that for granted.

I looked a little further into this and what I found was that these arms first appeared under Leopold VI of Babenberg, the forunners of the Habsburgs, that is to say, they were Margraves of what was then known as the Ostmark. And according to this family tree in front of me, the colours first appeared in 1203. I gather that the Habsburgs adopted these arms when they took possesion of the traditional Austrian lands when the Babenbergs died out (around 1250, I think).

Source: Lines of succession, Louda, J & Maclagan, M

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Post by Nagelfar » 23 Jan 2003 18:11

the black and white of Prussia with the white and red of the Hanseatic League


so the red is from the Hanseatic league, then? maybe some sources got that confused with 'Hapsburg' :wink:

does anybody have any information on the "Hanseatic League"?

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Post by viriato » 23 Jan 2003 22:03

Nagelfar it is easy to discover good information about the Hanseatic League even in the www. Try too any books on German history covering the late Middle Age. For a small presentation see this:

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~baronfum/hansa.html

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Post by Nagelfar » 23 Jan 2003 23:05

Alright, Thanks. I was just interested if anybody had any little known facts about it. though I suppose that would be getting off topic here. so I guess I'll leave this thread for any with conjecture for connection to the Hapsburgs :wink:

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Post by Durand » 30 Jan 2003 16:57

Sorry, posted to the wrong thread by accident. :oops:

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German Colours

Post by WhiskyAlpha » 19 Apr 2003 14:24

Hi all together,
1st) To make it short, Austria isn't a nation for itself, they are Germans as well as Bavarians, Prussians, Friesen, Hannoverans a.s.o.
2nd) The "Reichsfarben"- Black-Red-Gold (not yellow !!) are about 1000years old, in different forms.
3rd) Black-white-red, the colours of "Bismarcks Reich", are coming from two sources
- Prussia "Black-White" and
- Schleswig, rsp Hansestadt Hamburg "White-Red", which both together symbolizes the so called "Norddeutscher Bund" (Northgerman Union) founded in 1866. The NDB had been nearly 22 Staates north of the River Main ( exept Limburg and Luxemburg) under Prussias leadership.
4th) After foundation of the 2nd Kaiserreich 1871 at Versailles the colours of the NDB becomes the new Reichsfarben.
5th) But remember, nearly every land, like the Kingdom of Bavaria, still had their own colours and even foreign ministry.
5th) Back to cipher 1:
In our days Austria is an indepentdent staat, but a german country as
well and belongs to the German Nation, which is not only the Federal
Republic of Germany.
6th) Hope, this clears up colourdaub...

Servus




*Suum cuique*

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Galicia
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Post by Galicia » 18 Jul 2003 04:13

What I heard, is that when an Austrian King came out of battle during the crusades, he had been covered with blood from head to toe. When he removed his armor, he found that a part of his tunic had been spared from blood, his midsection where his armor had been.

When he came out of his tent, he found that his troops were retreating so he used his tunic as a standard and was supposedly able to repulse the Arabs.

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Wulpe
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Post by Wulpe » 22 Jul 2003 17:23

Galicia wrote:What I heard, is that when an Austrian King came out of battle during the crusades, he had been covered with blood from head to toe. When he removed his armor, he found that a part of his tunic had been spared from blood, his midsection where his armor had been.

When he came out of his tent, he found that his troops were retreating so he used his tunic as a standard and was supposedly able to repulse the Arabs.



This story is based on a flood of faked historical documents that Friedrich II created to legitimize his use of the red/silver/red heraldic colors. In the book "Die Symbole Österreichs" (Austria´s Symbols) there´s a full list of them.

These documents were so credible that the "Akkon Legend" of Leopold V and his bloody armor was even written into the imperial decree of 1806, which established title and coat of arms of the new empire (after Napoleon).

In fact it was duke Friedrich II who invented the colors to represent Austrias independence from the Reich. The "logo" was "state of the heraldic art" and was a triangular shield in red/silver/red (heraldic silver = white).

The oldest known evidence is a wax seal attached to a charter confirming the privileges of the convent in the town Lilienfeld from Nov 13 1230. But since the seal is of colorless wax, the oldest known evidence of the colors is the "Fürstenbuch" of Jans Enikel, published in 1280/1285. Enikel mentions the red/white/red coat of arms on the occasion of duke Friedrich II receiving knighthood in Vienna (February 2 1232).


Source: Peter Diem: "Die Symbole Österreichs. Zeit und Geschichte in Zeiten" Kremayr & Scheriau, Wien, 1995

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Galicia
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Post by Galicia » 25 Jul 2003 18:42

Very interesting. Is that book still in existance?

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