Separatism in Austria and Hungary before the start of World War I?

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Sid Guttridge
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Re: Separatism in Austria and Hungary before the start of World War I?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 31 Jan 2019 11:48

Hi Gooner1.

You post, "Did most of the nations in the A-H Empire really want independence and separate national states of their own before the war?"

Increasingly. The over strain of WWI probably only accelerated it.

You post, ".....look at a map of the patchwork of nations and languages and it becomes obvious that any split would not be easy." Yup, but by 1918 clearly the forces working for a break-up of the Austro-Hungarian Empire were considerably greater than those working for its continued cohesion.

And was there ever any significant movement to recreate it? Even in Austria, which became a republic, and Hungary, which became a Regency without a monarch and then a republic, there was no such movement, so there was hardly likely to be one amongst the empire's former minorities.

Cheers,

Sid.

Jan-Hendrik
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Re: Separatism in Austria and Hungary before the start of World War I?

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 31 Jan 2019 12:19

It was a tragedy of history that the serbs killed with Franz Ferdinand the only man that had a vision (and might be the power) for a deep reformation of the empire. The result was a new 30 years war on that territories...

Jan-Hendrik

Sid Guttridge
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Posts: 6673
Joined: 12 Jun 2008 11:19

Re: Separatism in Austria and Hungary before the start of World War I?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 31 Jan 2019 12:26

Hi Jan-Hendrik,

Certainly a tragedy, but I think the A-H empire was essentially unsaveable in the modern world, however much reformed. The USSR tried to reform its multi-national empire in the 1980s and collapsed in the early 1990s. Yugoslavia went the same way.

It was an idea out of time.

Let's see if the EU can successfully resurrect the concept of a multi-national state.

Cheers,

Sid.

Peter89
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Re: Separatism in Austria and Hungary before the start of World War I?

Post by Peter89 » 10 Feb 2019 08:31

Sid Guttridge wrote:
29 Jan 2019 14:37

You post, "If it was not German or Hungarian than pray tell what was it? Other languages would not have been better candidates by virtue of commonality." Even if true, why prevent higher education in any language except those two? Why shouldn't the Czech, Slovaks, Ukrainians, Romanians, Croats and Slovenes have had their own state-sponsored universities teaching in their own languages?
Hello Sid,

please take into account the very different educational environment. Although suppressive and assimilationist, the education and minority laws in 1868 resulted 5818 Hungarian-speaking primary schools of the 13798 primary schools (42%) in Transleithana. Of course most of these schools were church-ran, and the state established new schools only where it was needed.
(The same goes for hospitals.)

Churches held enormous power in the civil sector back then. Interestingly, the Slovaks were deeply involved in the Catholic church and thus managed to outnumber the Hungarian-speaking primary schools in present-day Slovakia. Out of 3052 primary schools 2016 were Slovak-speaking in 1876.

Secondary education (gymnasiums) of the nationalities were few (4 in present-day Slovakia) and many of them were closed later on, as well as Slovak-speaking primary schools were redesignated as Hungarians en masse, even tough nor the teacher or the children spoke Hungarian.

Academic education was only for the wealthiest and top society. Besides, acadamic education required at least to know German as no science or humanities was cultivated in Ruthenian or Slovak, etc. Even Hungarian was not enough. Of course Hungarian was pushed and over-represented, but a German national (10% of the population and the wealthiest nationality) had an easier time in the academy world than a Hungarian national. In fact, the German nationality surpassed the Hungarians in almost every indicator of education. It was much like today with English; if you can't master it, you're not an academic.

Croatia had her autonomy granted in 1868, it was the Croatian-Hungarian Settlement. It also meant an exclusive right of language use and an own parliament (Sabor).

Also, as academic education required money and travel anyway, a Serb, a Romanian, a German or a Slovak national could study in their mother language in Belgrade, Bucharest, Berlin or Prague.

Source:
http://agapealapitvany.org/?page_id=808

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