The Prison of Nations

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Gorque
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The Prison of Nations

#1

Post by Gorque » 12 Sep 2019, 19:29

An opinion piece by Dr. Miller-Melamed, associate professor of history at McDaniel College and Dr. Morelon, associate researcher at the University of Padova.
“A laboratory built over the great graveyard of the world war” was how Tomas Masaryk, the philosopher-president of the first Czechoslovak Republic, described the states whose creation was sanctioned by the Treaty of Saint-Germain-en-Laye (and other postwar treaties signed in and around Paris) — Czechoslovakia, Poland, Hungary, Austria and the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes (later known as Yugoslavia). This territorial redrawing was no mere afterthought of an atrocious world war — it cemented national self-determination as the basis for political sovereignty. The state, in other words, should correspond to the nation, which was another way of saying the people. The new countries defending this nation-state vision thus emphasized their uniqueness and demonized their predecessor as a “prison of nations”: the multinational Austro-Hungarian monarchy, presided over by the Hapsburgs.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/10/opin ... war-1.html

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pikeshot1600
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Re: The Prison of Nations

#2

Post by pikeshot1600 » 15 Sep 2019, 20:05

The "self-determination" of the Nations did little except expose them to being the victims of either Germany or Russia for the best part of half of the last century. Austria-Hungary was a constitutional state entity, not a totalitarian regime, that could,1914-18, mobilize 7,800,000 troops to defend its (and the Nations') interests, and it was a coherent economic entity as well. Cultural and progressive considerations are mentioned in the New York Times piece.

Austria-Hungary was hardly perfect politically, but A-H did not promote pogroms or establish concentration camps. That happened too often in the successor states where many of their remaining minorities were treated much worse than had been the minority nationalities in the Empire.

Post WW I Germany and Russia became totalitarian butcher's yards, and both were practitioners of industrialized hate and cruelty. The small successor states had to sell themselves, and their interests, to the remaining major powers until they were overwhelmed, first by one, and then by another, in the 1930-1940s. They were too close to Germany and Russia. The French could do nothing for them with their pointless alliances.

Tomas Masaryk died the year before Czechoslovakia became a colony of Nazi Germany. His son Jan Masaryk, another Czech statesman, was thrown out of a window by the Reds - Czechs or Soviets - who cares? - after the end of WW II (I think 1947 or 48). In 1953, or 1956 or 1968 or in Poland in the 1980s, the nationalities were not too happy with their "independence."

The demise of Austria-Hungary was one of the greatest geopolitical catastrophes of the 20th century. The nationalities of the Empire were the ones who paid the price for it.


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wm
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Re: The Prison of Nations

#3

Post by wm » 15 Sep 2019, 22:15

Czechoslovakia was a mini Austria-Hungary and it didn't make it.
So the original would not make it too and for the same reasons.

Actually they were concentration camps in Austria-Hungary and pogroms - although mainly of non-Jews.

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henryk
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Re: The Prison of Nations

#4

Post by henryk » 16 Sep 2019, 21:21

pikeshot1600 wrote:
15 Sep 2019, 20:05

The demise of Austria-Hungary was one of the greatest geopolitical catastrophes of the 20th century. The nationalities of the Empire were the ones who paid the price for it.
The existance of Austro-Hungary and its policies were a prime factor in the start of WWI.

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wm
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Re: The Prison of Nations

#5

Post by wm » 17 Sep 2019, 12:07

The Poles didn't complain - they saw the demise of Austria-Hungary (and those two others guys) as a miracle handed down from heaven by G-d himself.
A that's without any exaggeration.

Peter89
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Re: The Prison of Nations

#6

Post by Peter89 » 23 Sep 2019, 08:45

pikeshot1600 wrote:
15 Sep 2019, 20:05
The "self-determination" of the Nations did little except expose them to being the victims of either Germany or Russia for the best part of half of the last century. Austria-Hungary was a constitutional state entity, not a totalitarian regime, that could,1914-18, mobilize 7,800,000 troops to defend its (and the Nations') interests, and it was a coherent economic entity as well. Cultural and progressive considerations are mentioned in the New York Times piece.

Austria-Hungary was hardly perfect politically, but A-H did not promote pogroms or establish concentration camps. That happened too often in the successor states where many of their remaining minorities were treated much worse than had been the minority nationalities in the Empire.

Post WW I Germany and Russia became totalitarian butcher's yards, and both were practitioners of industrialized hate and cruelty. The small successor states had to sell themselves, and their interests, to the remaining major powers until they were overwhelmed, first by one, and then by another, in the 1930-1940s. They were too close to Germany and Russia. The French could do nothing for them with their pointless alliances.

Tomas Masaryk died the year before Czechoslovakia became a colony of Nazi Germany. His son Jan Masaryk, another Czech statesman, was thrown out of a window by the Reds - Czechs or Soviets - who cares? - after the end of WW II (I think 1947 or 48). In 1953, or 1956 or 1968 or in Poland in the 1980s, the nationalities were not too happy with their "independence."

The demise of Austria-Hungary was one of the greatest geopolitical catastrophes of the 20th century. The nationalities of the Empire were the ones who paid the price for it.
Your post is a shining light in this thread.
"Everything remained theory and hypothesis. On paper, in his plans, in his head, he juggled with Geschwaders and Divisions, while in reality there were really only makeshift squadrons at his disposal."

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