Just how strong was republican sentiment in Austria-Hungary before 1914?

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Futurist
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Just how strong was republican sentiment in Austria-Hungary before 1914?

Post by Futurist » 15 May 2020 01:42

Just how strong was republican sentiment in Austria-Hungary before 1914?

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Re: Just how strong was republican sentiment in Austria-Hungary before 1914?

Post by Peter89 » 19 May 2020 19:50

Futurist wrote:
15 May 2020 01:42
Just how strong was republican sentiment in Austria-Hungary before 1914?
Republican sentiment?

What do you mean by that?

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Re: Just how strong was republican sentiment in Austria-Hungary before 1914?

Post by Futurist » 19 May 2020 19:52

Peter89 wrote:
19 May 2020 19:50
Futurist wrote:
15 May 2020 01:42
Just how strong was republican sentiment in Austria-Hungary before 1914?
Republican sentiment?

What do you mean by that?
Support for having a republican form of government as opposed to a monarchy.

Peter89
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Re: Just how strong was republican sentiment in Austria-Hungary before 1914?

Post by Peter89 » 19 May 2020 21:58

Futurist wrote:
19 May 2020 19:52
Peter89 wrote:
19 May 2020 19:50
Futurist wrote:
15 May 2020 01:42
Just how strong was republican sentiment in Austria-Hungary before 1914?
Republican sentiment?

What do you mean by that?
Support for having a republican form of government as opposed to a monarchy.
Constitutional monarchy was the dominant form of goverment in that area before 1914. The newly formed kingdoms like Romania, Serbia, Bulgaria and Greece all adapted to this custom. At that time, I think only France was a republic in Europe. The 1918/1919 revolutions erased a few kingdoms, then the Paris treaties created a few republics, then the Soviets erased the remaining kingdoms in their area of influence after 1945.

But before 1914, republic sentiment must had been very weak.

Futurist
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Re: Just how strong was republican sentiment in Austria-Hungary before 1914?

Post by Futurist » 19 May 2020 22:33

Peter89 wrote:
19 May 2020 21:58
Futurist wrote:
19 May 2020 19:52
Peter89 wrote:
19 May 2020 19:50
Futurist wrote:
15 May 2020 01:42
Just how strong was republican sentiment in Austria-Hungary before 1914?
Republican sentiment?

What do you mean by that?
Support for having a republican form of government as opposed to a monarchy.
Constitutional monarchy was the dominant form of goverment in that area before 1914. The newly formed kingdoms like Romania, Serbia, Bulgaria and Greece all adapted to this custom. At that time, I think only France was a republic in Europe. The 1918/1919 revolutions erased a few kingdoms, then the Paris treaties created a few republics, then the Soviets erased the remaining kingdoms in their area of influence after 1945.

But before 1914, republic sentiment must had been very weak.
To be fair, though, a country can be a monarchy and yet nevertheless have strong or relatively strong republican sentiments. For instance, Spain right now:

https://www.euroweeklynews.com/2018/12/ ... -republic/

Also, Australia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_Aust ... referendum

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Loïc
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Re: Just how strong was republican sentiment in Austria-Hungary before 1914?

Post by Loïc » 19 May 2020 23:01

To Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and give to God what is God's the oldest republic existing in Europe in 1914 and until today was the tiny Serenissima Republic of San Marino, then the discreet and neutral Switzerland, only in third France in 1870, joined in fourth by Portugal in 1910 so there were 4 republics in Europe

the Hungarian Revolution of 1848 was a spectacular moment in the History of the country establishing an Independant Republic proclamed in 1849,
the massive intervention of 200 000 soldiers of the Russian Army saving the Habsbourg Empire changed the course of events and buried the hope of the short-lived Hungarian Republic...

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Re: Just how strong was republican sentiment in Austria-Hungary before 1914?

Post by Peter89 » 20 May 2020 07:01

Loïc wrote:
19 May 2020 23:01
To Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and give to God what is God's the oldest republic existing in Europe in 1914 and until today was the tiny Serenissima Republic of San Marino, then the discreet and neutral Switzerland, only in third France in 1870, joined in fourth by Portugal in 1910 so there were 4 republics in Europe

the Hungarian Revolution of 1848 was a spectacular moment in the History of the country establishing an Independant Republic proclamed in 1849,
the massive intervention of 200 000 soldiers of the Russian Army saving the Habsbourg Empire changed the course of events and buried the hope of the short-lived Hungarian Republic...
Fair points, except regarding Hungary. The independent state proclaimed on April 14, 1849 was not a definitive republic, and not even the Hungarian literature refer to it as one. Hungarian literature calls "The first republic" the state they started on October 31, 1918.

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Re: Just how strong was republican sentiment in Austria-Hungary before 1914?

Post by Peter89 » 20 May 2020 07:11

Futurist wrote:
19 May 2020 22:33
Peter89 wrote:
19 May 2020 21:58
Futurist wrote:
19 May 2020 19:52
Peter89 wrote:
19 May 2020 19:50
Futurist wrote:
15 May 2020 01:42
Just how strong was republican sentiment in Austria-Hungary before 1914?
Republican sentiment?

What do you mean by that?
Support for having a republican form of government as opposed to a monarchy.
Constitutional monarchy was the dominant form of goverment in that area before 1914. The newly formed kingdoms like Romania, Serbia, Bulgaria and Greece all adapted to this custom. At that time, I think only France was a republic in Europe. The 1918/1919 revolutions erased a few kingdoms, then the Paris treaties created a few republics, then the Soviets erased the remaining kingdoms in their area of influence after 1945.

But before 1914, republic sentiment must had been very weak.
To be fair, though, a country can be a monarchy and yet nevertheless have strong or relatively strong republican sentiments. For instance, Spain right now:

https://www.euroweeklynews.com/2018/12/ ... -republic/

Also, Australia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_Aust ... referendum
Yes, and rightly so, because nowadays keeping royalty in the first world is a costly form of keeping jesters for tabloids.

Back in 1914, even republican goals were channeled into a specific structure of the society where the king provides the continuity with the long gone medieval independence. So even where there was no need or right for a king, the nations of the Empire tried to get one.

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Re: Just how strong was republican sentiment in Austria-Hungary before 1914?

Post by Futurist » 24 May 2020 02:03

Peter89 wrote:
20 May 2020 07:11
Futurist wrote:
19 May 2020 22:33
Peter89 wrote:
19 May 2020 21:58
Futurist wrote:
19 May 2020 19:52
Peter89 wrote:
19 May 2020 19:50


Republican sentiment?

What do you mean by that?
Support for having a republican form of government as opposed to a monarchy.
Constitutional monarchy was the dominant form of goverment in that area before 1914. The newly formed kingdoms like Romania, Serbia, Bulgaria and Greece all adapted to this custom. At that time, I think only France was a republic in Europe. The 1918/1919 revolutions erased a few kingdoms, then the Paris treaties created a few republics, then the Soviets erased the remaining kingdoms in their area of influence after 1945.

But before 1914, republic sentiment must had been very weak.
To be fair, though, a country can be a monarchy and yet nevertheless have strong or relatively strong republican sentiments. For instance, Spain right now:

https://www.euroweeklynews.com/2018/12/ ... -republic/

Also, Australia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_Aust ... referendum
Yes, and rightly so, because nowadays keeping royalty in the first world is a costly form of keeping jesters for tabloids.

Back in 1914, even republican goals were channeled into a specific structure of the society where the king provides the continuity with the long gone medieval independence. So even where there was no need or right for a king, the nations of the Empire tried to get one.
But if one genuinely wants continuity, wouldn't one need to have the same royal dynasty as from Medieval times?

Peter89
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Re: Just how strong was republican sentiment in Austria-Hungary before 1914?

Post by Peter89 » 26 May 2020 23:17

Futurist wrote:
24 May 2020 02:03
Peter89 wrote:
20 May 2020 07:11
Futurist wrote:
19 May 2020 22:33
Peter89 wrote:
19 May 2020 21:58
Futurist wrote:
19 May 2020 19:52

Support for having a republican form of government as opposed to a monarchy.
Constitutional monarchy was the dominant form of goverment in that area before 1914. The newly formed kingdoms like Romania, Serbia, Bulgaria and Greece all adapted to this custom. At that time, I think only France was a republic in Europe. The 1918/1919 revolutions erased a few kingdoms, then the Paris treaties created a few republics, then the Soviets erased the remaining kingdoms in their area of influence after 1945.

But before 1914, republic sentiment must had been very weak.
To be fair, though, a country can be a monarchy and yet nevertheless have strong or relatively strong republican sentiments. For instance, Spain right now:

https://www.euroweeklynews.com/2018/12/ ... -republic/

Also, Australia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_Aust ... referendum
Yes, and rightly so, because nowadays keeping royalty in the first world is a costly form of keeping jesters for tabloids.

Back in 1914, even republican goals were channeled into a specific structure of the society where the king provides the continuity with the long gone medieval independence. So even where there was no need or right for a king, the nations of the Empire tried to get one.
But if one genuinely wants continuity, wouldn't one need to have the same royal dynasty as from Medieval times?
Most of them died out or were absorbed into the Habsburgs (eg. Ferdinand I of Chechia and Hungary), some rceived German kings (like Carol I of Romania, Ferdinand I of Bulgaria and Otto of Greece), some imported kings from elsewhere (like Milan I of Serbia, George I of Greece).

These societies were ruled by the nobility and the priesthood, thus making a very limited space for citoyens, entrepreneurs and intellectuals. A republic needs a strong third estate of the realm, which was not present there.

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Sheldrake
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Re: Just how strong was republican sentiment in Austria-Hungary before 1914?

Post by Sheldrake » 27 May 2020 00:01

The strongest opposition was in the form of nationalism. One of the biggest proponents used humour Jaroslav Hasek's Good Soldier Svejk is an anti authoritarian hero

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Re: Just how strong was republican sentiment in Austria-Hungary before 1914?

Post by Futurist » 27 May 2020 02:38

Peter89 wrote:
26 May 2020 23:17
Futurist wrote:
24 May 2020 02:03
Peter89 wrote:
20 May 2020 07:11
Futurist wrote:
19 May 2020 22:33
Peter89 wrote:
19 May 2020 21:58


Constitutional monarchy was the dominant form of goverment in that area before 1914. The newly formed kingdoms like Romania, Serbia, Bulgaria and Greece all adapted to this custom. At that time, I think only France was a republic in Europe. The 1918/1919 revolutions erased a few kingdoms, then the Paris treaties created a few republics, then the Soviets erased the remaining kingdoms in their area of influence after 1945.

But before 1914, republic sentiment must had been very weak.
To be fair, though, a country can be a monarchy and yet nevertheless have strong or relatively strong republican sentiments. For instance, Spain right now:

https://www.euroweeklynews.com/2018/12/ ... -republic/

Also, Australia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_Aust ... referendum
Yes, and rightly so, because nowadays keeping royalty in the first world is a costly form of keeping jesters for tabloids.

Back in 1914, even republican goals were channeled into a specific structure of the society where the king provides the continuity with the long gone medieval independence. So even where there was no need or right for a king, the nations of the Empire tried to get one.
But if one genuinely wants continuity, wouldn't one need to have the same royal dynasty as from Medieval times?
Most of them died out or were absorbed into the Habsburgs (eg. Ferdinand I of Chechia and Hungary), some rceived German kings (like Carol I of Romania, Ferdinand I of Bulgaria and Otto of Greece), some imported kings from elsewhere (like Milan I of Serbia, George I of Greece).

These societies were ruled by the nobility and the priesthood, thus making a very limited space for citoyens, entrepreneurs and intellectuals. A republic needs a strong third estate of the realm, which was not present there.
Can't a larger third estate develop in these countries over time, though?

Peter89
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Re: Just how strong was republican sentiment in Austria-Hungary before 1914?

Post by Peter89 » 27 May 2020 10:34

Futurist wrote:
27 May 2020 02:38
Peter89 wrote:
26 May 2020 23:17
Futurist wrote:
24 May 2020 02:03
Peter89 wrote:
20 May 2020 07:11
Futurist wrote:
19 May 2020 22:33

To be fair, though, a country can be a monarchy and yet nevertheless have strong or relatively strong republican sentiments. For instance, Spain right now:

https://www.euroweeklynews.com/2018/12/ ... -republic/

Also, Australia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_Aust ... referendum
Yes, and rightly so, because nowadays keeping royalty in the first world is a costly form of keeping jesters for tabloids.

Back in 1914, even republican goals were channeled into a specific structure of the society where the king provides the continuity with the long gone medieval independence. So even where there was no need or right for a king, the nations of the Empire tried to get one.
But if one genuinely wants continuity, wouldn't one need to have the same royal dynasty as from Medieval times?
Most of them died out or were absorbed into the Habsburgs (eg. Ferdinand I of Chechia and Hungary), some rceived German kings (like Carol I of Romania, Ferdinand I of Bulgaria and Otto of Greece), some imported kings from elsewhere (like Milan I of Serbia, George I of Greece).

These societies were ruled by the nobility and the priesthood, thus making a very limited space for citoyens, entrepreneurs and intellectuals. A republic needs a strong third estate of the realm, which was not present there.
Can't a larger third estate develop in these countries over time, though?
If you want my opinion, no. These countries are way too small to withstand the influence from either the West or the slavic East. So their caste-based societies will always fail to develop, because the eastern or western influence will always support to crush freedom, free will and prosperity. And the commoners cannot learn a different lesson from history. They are still servants and not citoyens, and they will never the mindset of a free man. A lot of these countries are also landlocked, and even those which have a sea access, they are enclosed seas, their strategic value is questionable, because they are entirely dependant, again, on the relationships with either the east of the west.

We can also point out that these newborn, squabbling litttle states are overfetishizing their national identity and language, meaning their intellectual caste cannot develop in absence of a proper market. If you write something in German, you write for a 90m, wealthy market, if you write something in French or Italian you are writing for 60m wealthy markets. But if you write something in Slovenian, you are writing for a market of 2m, and if you are writing in Bulgarian, your market is very poor and very small. So intellectuals and other men of culture will always depend on the fundings from the state, thus reforming a secular first estate over and over again.

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Re: Just how strong was republican sentiment in Austria-Hungary before 1914?

Post by Futurist » 09 Jun 2020 02:54

Thanks, Peter!

Anyway, do you think that Austria-Hungary would have survived up to the present-day had World War I never actually occurred?

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Re: Just how strong was republican sentiment in Austria-Hungary before 1914?

Post by Peter89 » 10 Jun 2020 17:41

Futurist wrote:
09 Jun 2020 02:54
Thanks, Peter!

Anyway, do you think that Austria-Hungary would have survived up to the present-day had World War I never actually occurred?
One might argue well that European states like to be ethnically homogenous, but that was always achieved by mass deportations, enforced assimilations and such. However, I think that even now, where root-and-stem style mass deportations did not occur, nations can live together, and with the European Union (and the Schengen Zone), most of these minority issues are addressed (sometimes even solved).

I think that the Polish, Serbian, Italian, Romanian and Ukranian population - nations that had a different state to live in - would have been inevitably lost to the Empire, by one way or the other. But I also believe that Austrians, Czechs, Slovaks, Slovenians, Hungarians and maybe the Croatians had no other country to live in. This was their homeland, though they had been gradually alienated from it.

But WW1 wasn't the decisive factor that ruined the Empire. It was mostly the Hungarian nationalism, that denied the reforms and the same rights to other nations of the Empire (most notably the Czechs). So the dualism could not be reformed into a trialism, quadrialism and last, a federalism. Sadly, the Slovak and Slovenian national ambitions were neglected by and large, the former being subjected to Czech and Hungarian, the latter being subjected to Austrian and panslavic ambitions.

The A-H Empire could have ended the war with relative territorial impunity: https://encyclopedia.1914-1918-online.n ... ia-Hungary

Also, one more thing is important. The newly formed states were similarly multi-ethnic states, and each and every one of them were dissolved since, resulting more mass deportations, wars and ethnic oppression. But ultimately, multi-ethnic states remained, Slovaks and Hungarians, etc. etc. are living together in the same country - even after 100 years. So yes, I firmly believe that a multi-ethnic state had a chance to survive to present day.

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