Austria-Hungary - Why unkown?

Discussions on all aspects of Austria-Hungary. Hosted by Glenn Jewison.
User avatar
Hadrian
Member
Posts: 36
Joined: 11 Nov 2002 12:05
Location: Romania

Post by Hadrian » 17 Dec 2002 08:11

We are peaceful, as time nobody bothers us. When somebody`s looking for trouble we became VERY BAD (Remember Vlad the Impaler :wink: and the other battles against the turks). The turks and tatars were esentialy stoped at the borders of romanian principalities. This let the rest of Europe evolve in the great civilisation that is today.
Anyway, we are in the first time EUROPEANS and then latins, germanics, slavs, greeks and celts. We must have this in mind if we realy want to become united in one big great European Comunity.
See you soon SerbTiger bratu moiu.

User avatar
Mike K.
Member
Posts: 1086
Joined: 20 Oct 2002 22:33
Location: California

Post by Mike K. » 19 Dec 2002 09:50

Another contributing factor to Austria-Hungary's obscurity would have to be its poor performance during the war. It's undeniable Germany was the dominant military player of the Central Powers.

User avatar
Mike K.
Member
Posts: 1086
Joined: 20 Oct 2002 22:33
Location: California

Post by Mike K. » 19 Dec 2002 10:12

Tanker wrote:First of all the reason for the war between Austria-Hungary was the ignoration of the Austrian ultimatum which was send to the Serbs.Vienna wanted to send Austrian policemen to Serbie,there they should find more about the "Black Hand" group which was responsibilie for the assassination of Franz Ferdinand out.Like I said,the Serbs ignored the ulitmatum,Austria-Hungary declared war on Serbia,didn't know that they had a contract with Russia.Russia declared war on Austria,but Austria had a contract with Germany.....ect....


Austria intentionally drafted the ultimatum to be unacceptable to the Serbs, to give them a pretext to invade. Russian influence in the Balkans had been increasing in the preceding years, and Austria wanted a chance to reassert itself in the region and send a message to Europe that she was still a great power to be recognized. Initially Serbia was contemplating submitting unconditionally, but when it became clear that Russia had every intention of protecting her fellow Slavs, they objected to but a few of the points on the ultimatum.

This was enough for Austria. She had been guaranteed the unconditional support of Germany, which was hoped would scare the Russians into their place-- it didn't. Austria declared war on Serbia; Russia ordered partial mobilization, Germany demanded a cease to mobilization, which was ignored, and then fully mobilized herself. War was declared on France, and the Schlieffen Plan was underway.

User avatar
Oberst Mihael
Member
Posts: 1304
Joined: 13 Jul 2002 17:28
Location: Slovenia

Post by Oberst Mihael » 21 Dec 2002 10:57

nuplicid wrote:Another contributing factor to Austria-Hungary's obscurity would have to be its poor performance during the war. It's undeniable Germany was the dominant military player of the Central Powers.


I would have to disagree. The first time Blitzkrieg was used, ever, was on the Isonzo front, at the so-called "Miracle at Kobarid", where combined German - Austro-Hungarian troops pushed the Italians all the way to the Piave river. After that they were too exhausted and hungry, so our forces had to capitulate. A young leutnant named Erwin Rommel fought there (or should I say, here :D ) for the first time, where he was impressed by the hospitality of our people and the bravery of our soldiers.

Gwynn Compton
Member
Posts: 2840
Joined: 10 Mar 2002 22:46
Location: United Kingdom

Post by Gwynn Compton » 22 Dec 2002 07:56

I wouldn't call it Blitzkrieg as we know it in the sense of the Wehrmacht's victories over Poland & France. But it is certainly a case to show that the Austrian tropps could perform well. And still was an amazing piece of work, especially given the numerous battles that had been fought on that front throughout the war.

Gwynn

User avatar
Tanker
Member
Posts: 38
Joined: 21 Nov 2002 18:03
Location: Austria

Post by Tanker » 04 Jan 2003 13:29

Russian influence in the Balkans had been increasing in the preceding years, and Austria wanted a chance to reassert itself in the region and send a message to Europe that she was still a great power to be recognized


I would say that the Austrian influence had been increasing by the annexion of Bosnia-Herzegowina.

If Serbia let those policemen come,and they would have found out that the killer Principé was member of "shadowhand" and terroristic organisation which was supported by the Russians.Maybe Austria would have used the "American Way" and had declared war on terrorism.

Gwynn Compton
Member
Posts: 2840
Joined: 10 Mar 2002 22:46
Location: United Kingdom

Post by Gwynn Compton » 05 Jan 2003 10:55

A war on terrorism as a pretext to invade Serbia would have still meant a general war, especially given the long gap between the assassination and the delivering of the ultimatum. Had Austria decleared war or delivered its demands to Serbia much sooner after the assassination, Russia may not had sided with a a nation that had assassinated a monarch.

It doesn't look good for a monarch to support people assassinating monarchs.

Gwynn

User avatar
Mike K.
Member
Posts: 1086
Joined: 20 Oct 2002 22:33
Location: California

Post by Mike K. » 05 Jan 2003 13:45

Had Austria decleared war or delivered its demands to Serbia much sooner after the assassination, Russia may not had sided with a a nation that had assassinated a monarch.


Possibly, but the Czar's diplomatic defeat in the Bosnian crisis with Austria made this unlikely. Russia was also eager for a chance to reassert herself in the Balkans. The Czar backed down once and was determined not to do so again. :)

pcbanat
New member
Posts: 1
Joined: 20 Jan 2003 23:26
Location: Canada

Post by pcbanat » 25 Jan 2003 18:14

The sunk of Lusitania did not convince the americans to enter the war but the so called "The Zimmerman note" wich followed the "Balfour Declaration"!
Regarding how the war REALLY started I am afraid you should ask the british to unlock some of their Top Secret archives!!!
From what I know this is what hapened on 27 july 1914 the most critical day of the crisis:
-On july 27 the text of the serbian reply to Austria's ultimatum reached the Wilhelstrasse (two days to late!), where the document caused dismay.
In reasonable and moderate terms the serbs had accepted most of the Austrian demands, formulated some reservations on others and rejected only point six.So much reasonableness might make a great impression on the Kaiser...only that he did not read it until the next morning!
-Same day in London! The british foreign secretary, Sir Edward Grey called in the german ambasador, prince Karl Lichnowsky, and made a formal plea that germans use its good offices in Viena to facilitate acceptance of the serbian reply at least as a basis for further nogotiations.
This whole think actually was backed by the announcement in the british press the same day that leave had been canceled in the british navy! Prince Lichnowsky immediately grasped its import and relayed it to Berlin with a great sense of urgency!
Lichnowsky's dispatch reached the Wilhestrasse at about the same time as a message from Viena informing the german government that Austria would declare war on Serbia the next day, or at the latest on july the 29.
Thereupon Bethmann-Holliveg (the chancellor) commited either an incredible blunder, or (as some historians believe) an act of equally duplicity. Acting upon instrunctions from the kaiser, he forwarded to Viena sir Edward Grey's suggestion about German good offices, but on his own initiative(???) he OMMITED a key pasasage in the message he had received from the german embassy in London wich stressed the seriousness of the british warning! and he failed to indicate any official german endorsment of the suggestion; he merelly asked for the austrian
views about it! He even allowed Jagow (the german foreign minister) to call austrian ambasador and in effect to advise him taht the austrians should pay no attention to any british suggestions that Berlin migth feel obliged, for the sake of record, to forward!!!

Durand
Member
Posts: 1215
Joined: 09 Jul 2002 17:02
Location: USA

Post by Durand » 02 Feb 2003 04:04

Hallo,

I agree with those who think that A-H's activities during WW I are relatively unknown because of the English speaking world's narrow focus on the Western Front. In an effort to remedy this imbalance, can anyone please suggest any books on the subject?

Regards,

Durand

User avatar
Oberst Mihael
Member
Posts: 1304
Joined: 13 Jul 2002 17:28
Location: Slovenia

Post by Oberst Mihael » 02 Feb 2003 11:14

Tanker: I think there were 12 Isonzo battles...but then again, it has been some years since I switched my focus from WW1 to WW2...

Ken
Member
Posts: 89
Joined: 20 Mar 2002 07:08

Post by Ken » 13 Apr 2003 07:11

Actually, Serbia did reply to the ultimatum.. They agreed to over 90% of the points but the Austrian ultimatum was drafted in a way so that there is no way out for Serbia..

Austria believed that now that the Turks are gone, it is time for Austria to "extend" its sphere of influence into the Balkans.. I mean, seriously.. with all the problems with Slavs and Serbs.. they had the archduke come and inspect military exercises in Sarajevo of all places?

Austria wanted to either annex Serbia (or the rest of Serbia, depending on whether you consider Bosnia a part of "Greater Serbia").. or turn Serbia into a puppet state..

Serbia replied to the ultimatum in which they will do their own investigation and get the people behind the organization.. but Austria's ultimatum was not just about that.. but about the Serbian government, changes in the educational system, sending Austrian police into Belgrade.. When you let foreign police officers/armed men into a sovereign country, that country is not sovereign anymore.. when you dictate what another country's education system should or should not have, the country is basically a puppet..

And Austria gave Serbia a 2 day notice. If you don't act now, war.. This is not the way two independent, sovereign nations negotiate.. This is more of the way an empire talks to its weaker neighbours.. Or.. the way the central government talks to a province/state.. The government gives orders to all its provinces..

Serbia wanted to negotiate, but Austria was not in the negotiating business with Serbia.. it was giving orders..

The war would've broke out with or without the assassination.. there were problems all over Europe.. and especially in the balkans..

User avatar
dead-cat
Member
Posts: 435
Joined: 04 Mar 2003 22:06
Location: Mainz, Germany

Post by dead-cat » 16 Apr 2003 17:24

it's not all that easy. serbia harbored and tolerated the "black hand". in todays terms a "terrorist organization". the cooperation with austrian police (yes that incudes sending some to belgrade) was one of the more acceptable things.

why austro-hungary didn't accept serbian investigation is pretty obvious: since serbia tolerated the activities of the "black hand" so far, austro-hungary expected them to arrest a few non-key members but leave the main leaders in peace.

This is not the way two independent, sovereign nations negotiate.


i've seen worse. for example the quote "the belgian declaration of neutrality is worth nothing more than a scrap of paper". or just try to imagine the US reaction if 09/11 killed the american persident, just to name a recent example.

austro-hungary saw the panslavistic movement (chairman the russian czar) as a threat to its very existence. a russian expansion to the balkans was as inacceptable to austro-hungary as an austro-hungarian expansion was to russia. while the situation was under control until the first balkan war, things got worse afterwards. for some bulgaria was too large, austro-hungary feared that a stronger serbia would feed secessionist feelings among the slavic elements within the empire, russia felt obliged to assist the serbs while abandoning the bulgars, the greeks wanted macedonia, the italians more infuence in albania, romania didn't want to be ignored either, etc.

austro-hungary was often called a prison of nations and to a certain extent it was. that's why it never had a chance to survive.

the czechs were unhappy because they (rightfully) felt they were underrepresented. same for the slovaks or the southern slavs. the hungarians wern't happy as well. the germans in banat and transsylvania felt betrayed by austria because they became a part of hungary after 1867 and were exposed to magyarisation. the poles in gallicia wanted their own state since the last division of poland. and so forth. the only way to keep this conglomerate together was pretty much by intimidation and force. this explains their reaction in 1914.

User avatar
kaisertum
Member
Posts: 12
Joined: 23 Apr 2003 06:37
Location: Somewhere over the Rainbow

Post by kaisertum » 02 May 2003 07:35

Tanker wrote:First of all the reason for the war between Austria-Hungary was the ignoration of the Austrian ultimatum which was send to the Serbs.Vienna wanted to send Austrian policemen to Serbie,there they should find more about the "Black Hand" group which was responsibilie for the assassination of Franz Ferdinand out.Like I said,the Serbs ignored the ulitmatum,Austria-Hungary declared war on Serbia


I read somewhere that the Serbs had in fact accepted the ultimatum but that the Austrian ambassador left for Vienna and did not tell Franz Josef they had accepted. Also doch. I think it was in a book by Trevor Roper but it is a long time since I read it. Maybe some English historian has a copy and can put me right?

Janissary
Member
Posts: 16
Joined: 23 Nov 2002 07:50
Location: Hercegovina

Post by Janissary » 21 May 2003 15:07

SerbTiger wrote:The war was going to happen even without the assassination.

Austria wanted to crush Serbia as the Serbs were a bad example to other Slavs under its yoke. They knew that the oppression of the Slavs could not continue for long unless they destroyed the Serbian State and the assassination was the perfect opportunity to fulfil their aim.

I am interested how is Austro-Hungary looked upon by other Slavic nations, Slovaks, Romanians, Croats..


so you're saying that the austrians killed franz ferdinand?

Return to “Austria-Hungary 1867–1918”