Franz Ferdinand's car

[Peter H]

No idea,but the car still remains at the Museum.

Peter

[Peter H]

Photo of the Archduke in Bosnia a day or so before he was shot.

From The First World War,Hew Strachan

[maxxx]

well the car is still here in the museum. There is no chance of a restitition

[maiol7]

i have reached this site per pure coincidence! Baroness Alice Dreihann-Holenia, née Countess Harrach, died on October 2, 2006 in Aschach a.d.Donau. Her son Nikolaus Dreihann-Holenia, to whom i was married for 22 years, is her sole heir and still owns the official registration papers of this lent car NO MATTER what the museum director says. I personally witnessed the oral transmission of these historical facts by my mother-in-law (and her two elder half-sisters). Like her father she had graciously let the car stand at the museum and would have been glad to continue to do so. The turmoil was about this clarification (which would have been more difficult with time) and her proven ownership. The court ruled for the state-owned museum against a 90-yrs old lady. Maybe it is too early to deal with still vivid emotions...

[VeldesX]

The Republic is inherently hostile to all personal and private claims of anyone or anything having to do with the pre-Republic period. There is little chance anything like what happened between the Romanian government and Dominic Habsburg concerning Bran castle will happen in Austria, even when it concerns something as trivial as a loaned car.

G

[Karl]

Bloody socialists, isn't it?

[Grisu]

Bloody socialists, isn't it?

Karl, with due respect, why don't you drop political remarks of that kind?

In the past 30 years, Austria has had a purely social democrat government (in the 70s), then a coalition between social democrats and freedom party, then a coalition between social democrats and people's party (in the 80s and 90s), then a coalition between people's party and freedom party (in the late 90s and around the turn of the millennium), and finally a coalition between social democrats and people's party (since 2006). So, three out of four relevant political parties in latest Austrian contemporary history have had their share in political power. To blame just one for something means ignoring the facts.

Apart from that, M. Rauchensteiner (the director of the museum as in my humble opinion a superb military historian), is - if my memory doesn't betray me - usually allocated rather to the conservative side of the political spectrum.

Yes, the story of the car is questionable. Yes, the argumentation of the court does not seem entirely plausible. Yes, the owners seem to make a point in arguing for their ownership. But your implicit and undifferentiated claim that the "bloody socialists" are responsible for the fate of this very car is pure political claptrap and has no place in an apolitical forum.

[Karl]

Four words constituted three paragraphs. Don't you have better things to do.

[Grisu]

Karl, again, it's a pity you can't discuss history-related and on topic but rather try to bring the whole thing on a personal level. I'm not in for such games. This is about the history of the car and about people currently concerned with its further fate. This is not about you and me.

It would be great if someone - maybe user maiol7, who seems to have some great knowledge about this case - could expand our knowledge on the lines of argumentation which have been followed by the plaintiff and by the defendant, respectively. Is it true that Franz von Harrach gave the car to Franz Joseph II. because the latter personally wanted it to be on display and asked for the car? If so, I suspect there is no written piece of paper about arrangements between the count and the emperor, or about legal regulations concerning this piece on loan. In any case, even if the car 'belonged' (so to speak) to the emperor as an item on loan, how can the court claim that the Republic of Austria is the legal successor of this possession? Was the car ever officially given to the (forerunner of the) museum by the emperor? If so, wouldn't it make sense that even such a formal act of donating the car would be illegal, as the emperor disposed on an item he did not legally possess?

On what judicial level is the case being pursued? Is it correct that it is beyond the level of district court and currently pending? maiol7, if you have anything more you can share, it would be great to read more on history as it happens right now...

[Karl]

If this is not a pissing contest and it's not Socialists, why didn't they give the old woman the car back?

[Karl]

no one can answer that simple question.

[Grisu]

I sincerely hope that you are not derailing this promising thread on purpose, Karl. This is indeed an important issue in Austrian contemporary history and I would regret if this discussion went south.

If you voice accusations, that is fine. But they'd better be more than beating around the bush. I really would like to take your point seriously, so to give your accusations some substance, please identify those who have been - according to your view - preventing the restitution of the car. Please give us names of politicians and/or institutions, provide at least some background information so that we can discuss this issue from your point of view.

[Peter H]

Let's keep on topic and avoid conclusions due to supposed political influences---please.

The judicial decision on the car's ownership is of relevance though.

[Karl]

The judicial decision on the car's ownership is of relevance though.

Great no one is derailing.

[maiol7]

I am not on solid ground with historical dates and laws and would not like to take this on a emotional level. I shall send this link to the owner of the car and maybe he would like to further inform you! Unwritten history is sometimes so interesting but also private!
I believe your forum keeps it all alive! Congratulations!