Allied Spring Offensive 1917 - 2017 British Commission for Military History Tour

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Tom from Cornwall
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Re: Allied Spring Offensive 1917 - 2017 British Commission for Military History Tour

#16

Post by Tom from Cornwall » 22 May 2017, 18:53

Hi,
Not when the FPTP electoral system guarantees minority rule. No party in government has had more than 50% of the vote (except the Tories in 1931, when the electoral system was even more bent*) never mind more than 50% of the votes of the electorate.

* Plural voting, University constituencies, 400-500 million un-enfranchised colonials.
OK, I see - well, nothing is perfect... :D

Does that mean that you consider that only British referendums can be considered as genuinely democratic? 8O

Regards

Tom

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Re: Allied Spring Offensive 1917 - 2017 British Commission for Military History Tour

#17

Post by Tom from Cornwall » 22 May 2017, 18:55

Hi again,
All that is true but I think that the rest planned by Joffre at the Chantilly meeting in late 1916 means that something on those lines was intended all along, with or without the Nivelle gig. I think that this has been underestimated.
Hmmm, I confess I don't know much about the Chantilly meeting, thanks for the reference - if Joffre was planning to implement such changes, he didn't seem to get far...or is the narrative that Nivelle's offensive derailed these innovations?

Regards

Tom


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Attrition
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Re: Allied Spring Offensive 1917 - 2017 British Commission for Military History Tour

#18

Post by Attrition » 22 May 2017, 19:27

About a week after Joffre and Haig agreed to a spring offensive on the Somme with a much wider front, something like the original 1916 plan for the Somme, followed by the French taking a breather and the BEF getting the Flanders gig going. Joffre got the sack and Nivelle was given the job of planning a decisive offensive to exploit the weakening of the Germans in 1916. The Allies didn't have to bother with a spring offensive on the Somme, because of the German spring withdrawal. If you look at the material consequences of the French offensive on the Aisne it was a considerable attritional success (after the false start caused by the lousy weather). By the time it ended, French-German losses were about 1:1, which would doom the Germans if it continued.

Doubtless the mutinies strengthened Petain's hand when demanding the rearmament and remobilisation of the French army but had the original plan gone ahead, a hiatus of some sort would have occurred, while the British took the strain.

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Re: Allied Spring Offensive 1917 - 2017 British Commission for Military History Tour

#19

Post by The Ibis » 23 May 2017, 01:05

Where are you getting your loss data? A single source or are you going through records yourself? Thanks!
"The secret of managing is to keep the guys who hate you away from the guys who are undecided." - Casey Stengel

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Re: Allied Spring Offensive 1917 - 2017 British Commission for Military History Tour

#20

Post by Attrition » 23 May 2017, 01:58

I think it's from OH 1917 I and perhaps Greenhalgh.

I've had a look overnight and I can't find anything explicit about the French having a rest after a spring offensive. I'll keep looking. If anyone else can suggest sources I'd be obliged.

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Re: Allied Spring Offensive 1917 - 2017 British Commission for Military History Tour

#21

Post by The Ibis » 23 May 2017, 16:07

Attrition wrote:I think it's from OH 1917 I and perhaps Greenhalgh.

I've had a look overnight and I can't find anything explicit about the French having a rest after a spring offensive. I'll keep looking. If anyone else can suggest sources I'd be obliged.
I checked 2 of Greenhalgh's books and didn't see it. If no one responds here within a few days, I will send some emails.
"The secret of managing is to keep the guys who hate you away from the guys who are undecided." - Casey Stengel

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Re: Allied Spring Offensive 1917 - 2017 British Commission for Military History Tour

#22

Post by Attrition » 23 May 2017, 16:42

I found it in OH 1917 II p 8, which mentions the French army taking a rest after the spring offensive, while the British took over and possibly a joint offensive later in the year, possibly decisive.

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Re: Allied Spring Offensive 1917 - 2017 British Commission for Military History Tour

#23

Post by The Ibis » 23 May 2017, 17:50

Attrition wrote:I found it in OH 1917 II p 8, which mentions the French army taking a rest after the spring offensive, while the British took over and possibly a joint offensive later in the year, possibly decisive.
Thanks. Volume 2 is one of the few versions that isn't online. :cry:
"The secret of managing is to keep the guys who hate you away from the guys who are undecided." - Casey Stengel

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Re: Allied Spring Offensive 1917 - 2017 British Commission for Military History Tour

#24

Post by Attrition » 23 May 2017, 21:46

Really? I mean the British OH, is it online? News to me if it is; could you share the address pls?

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Re: Allied Spring Offensive 1917 - 2017 British Commission for Military History Tour

#25

Post by Attrition » 24 May 2017, 00:30

"At a further meeting of the French and British Commanders-in-Chief it was agreed to launch a spring offensive by British and French forces in the Somme and Aisne sectors respectively, after which the main effort would be transferred to Flanders where operations would be continued throughout the summer chiefly by British troops. By this series of wearing down battles it was expected that the remaining reserves of the German army would be consumed to such an extent that a break through by the combined British and French forces on the Western Front, with the resultant victorious end of the War, might be possible before the close of the year." Edmonds, OH 1917 II p. 8

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Re: Allied Spring Offensive 1917 - 2017 British Commission for Military History Tour

#26

Post by The Ibis » 24 May 2017, 17:20

Attrition wrote:Really? I mean the British OH, is it online? News to me if it is; could you share the address pls?

They are on Archive.org. Here is a website that collects the links: http://generalstab.org/category/links/o ... ories-ww1/
"The secret of managing is to keep the guys who hate you away from the guys who are undecided." - Casey Stengel

Tom from Cornwall
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Re: Allied Spring Offensive 1917 - 2017 British Commission for Military History Tour

#27

Post by Tom from Cornwall » 24 May 2017, 20:54

Hi,
I found it in OH 1917 II p 8, which mentions the French army taking a rest after the spring offensive, while the British took over and possibly a joint offensive later in the year, possibly decisive
Thanks for this and the following quote from the OH - as for how well the French under Joffre or Nivelle would have understood what it meant to "rest" their troops, I found these extracts from Petain's report of 29 May 1917 in Barnett (pp.244-246) interesting:
… It is difficult to determine how far one particular cause is significant rather than another. It is therefore necessary to place them in two different categories: those which emanate from life itself at the front, those that are due to outside influences.
Against the first, the General -in-Chief is armed up to a certain point. He is unarmed in the case of the others, and only the government can act effectively here.
Concerning life at the front, one finds, at the base of the troops’ indiscipline, general weariness, the question of leave, drunkenness and, it is necessary to acknowledge it, the faults of the command during the recent offensive.
As an accessory to this, one can point out a weakening in the repression of crimes and military offences.
The orders for the great offensive … had obviously aroused exaggerated hopes. It was repeated that our troops would reach Laon on the first day.
These promises were broadcast as far as the soldier in the ranks … In fact, we have progressed little despite very severe losses, the destruction counted on has been totally insufficient, the struggle has been very hard, and having begun on April 16, is not finished today.
All that period of orders and counter-orders which followed till the end of the month has been disastrous. The troops put in the line on April 19 received successively information that they would attack on the 23rd, then the 25th, then the 29th, at last May 3 and 5. Successive counter-orders of this kind are depressing in the extreme for those carrying them out. To prepare to attack is to face the probability of death. One deliberately accepts this idea once. But when they see the awful moment postponed again and again the bravest and the steadiest become demoralized. In the end, physical resistance and nervous tension alike have their limits. The troops who attacked on May 5 were at the end of their tether, having been in the front line for seventeen days under intense and continuous fire.
… one must lay down as an absolute rule that a man coming back from hard fighting (Somme, Verdun, Aisne) will not rest properly if he is exposed to shelling and even the sound of gun-fire. It is utopian to believe that troops can recover physically and morally from their emotions and from exhaustion in an area under bombardment, or if they know that they are likely to be sent suddenly back into the line.
It follows that … it is necessary to send troops relieved from the front to complete rest in the rear.
On the other hand, one must oppose the very distinct tendency shown in certain units and even among their commanders, to demand as a right prolonged rest after any period of fighting.
Barnett, never one to underplay his material, described this report as 'Wellingtonian in its brutally cold and candid good sense' and that the remarks show 'perhaps the essence of Pétain’s quality as a soldier: his profound understanding of what war meant to those who have to fight it, his compassion, his knowledge of the possible, and his ability to express these things so lucidly'.

Regards

Tom

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Re: Allied Spring Offensive 1917 - 2017 British Commission for Military History Tour

#28

Post by Attrition » 24 May 2017, 21:17

Joffre never got the chance and the Nivelle gig replaced Joffre's offensive with something much more ambitious but the French armies certainly did get a breather after the Aisne, courtesy of the BEF. Flanders, Verdun and La Malmaison were much more conservative than French operations in 1916.

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