The Meuse Argonne: America's Greatest Battle

Discussions on all aspects of the First World War not covered in the other sections. Hosted by Terry Duncan.
Post Reply
JamesL
Member
Posts: 1649
Joined: 28 Oct 2004, 01:03
Location: NJ USA

The Meuse Argonne: America's Greatest Battle

#1

Post by JamesL » 29 Sep 2008, 18:28

The Meuse Argonne: America’s Greatest Battle

Someone should make mention of this. Allow me to do so.

This week marks the 90th anniversary of the start of the Meuse Argonne Campaign. Nine US divisions of the First Army attacked northward along a front extending from the Argonne Forest to the Meuse River. The goal was to cut German lines of communication, specifically railroad supply routes, thus denying Germany the ability to adequately supply its armies.

Over 600,000 Americans were involved when the campaign started on the morning of September 26, 1918. By the time the campaign ended, 47 days, over 900,000 Americans participated in the attack. The US suffered 110,000 casualties.

It was on September 29, 1918 that my grandfather, an US infantry sergeant, was wounded while making a front attack on positions held by the 1st Prussian Guards Division. The regiment was caught in the open and came under artillery and gas attack as well as being caught by German machineguns in enfilade. One reference noted that my grandfather’s regiment of 3,000 men suffered 2,500 casualties in 5 days of battle. Another reference noted that the regiment suffered 1,000 casualties in 1 hour.

Regardless of the casualties, the regiment seized its objectives, only to be ordered to abandon them. The regiment was so far ahead of the flanking US regiments it was in danger of being cut off.

Two members of my grandfather’s company received the Distinguished Service Cross for their gallantry. The 190 man company suffered 51 KIA and 63 WIA.

After the war General Erich von Ludendorf made the following statement:
`“In the battles for the possession of the Meuse line, which we had held for four years and heavily fortified, the Americans must be credited with decisive victory. By frontal pressure against the troops opposing them, they forced us to abandon the Aisne position and retreat behind the Meuse. The French on numerous previous occasions had attacked us there in great force, suffered terrible loss themselves and gained no advantage. Regarding the actual fighting of the Americans, their attacks were undoubtedly brave and often reckless. They lacked sufficient desterity or experience in availing themselves of topographical cover or protection. They came right on in open field and attacked in units much too closely formed. Their lack of actual field experience accounts for some extraordinary heavy losses.”

My grandfather returned home and lived a long life.

References:
Our Greatest Battle: The Meuse Argonne by Frederick Palmer.
American Armies and Battlefields in Europe, US Army Center for Military History.

User avatar
tigre
Member
Posts: 10548
Joined: 20 Mar 2005, 12:48
Location: Argentina

Re: The Meuse Argonne: America's Greatest Battle

#2

Post by tigre » 12 Mar 2016, 15:08

Hola a todos :D; a little complement..............................

HISTORICAL ILLUSTRATION (Penetration)
MEUSE-ARGONNE OPERATIONS, LAST PHASE
OPERATIONS OF THE FIRST ARMY, 1-11 NOVEMBER 1918

The order of battle of the First Army, from the Meuse River to the west was: the III Corps (Hines) with the 5th (Ely) and 90th (Allen) Divisions in line and the 32d (Haan) Division in reserve; the V Corps (Summerall) with the 89th (Wright) and 2d (Lejeune) Divisions in line and the 1st (Parker) and the 42d (Menoher) Divisions in reserve; and the I Corps (Dickman) with the 80th (Cronkhite), 77th (Alexander) and 78th (McRae) Divisions in line and the 6th (Gordon) and 82d (Duncan) Divisions in reserve. The 42d Division was transferred to the reserve of the I Corps soon after the beginning of the attack. The 3d (Preston Brown), 29th (Morton) and 36th (W.R. Smith) Divisions in the rear areas composed the Army reserve.

The general mission of the First Army was to cut the Metz-Sedan-Mezieres railroad. The detailed plan for the attack contemplated a deep penetration by the V Corps in the center to secure Barricourt Heights, followed by a drive by the I Corps to connect with the French near Boult-aux-Bois. The capture of Barricourt Heights, which constituted a formidable obstacle, would compel a German retirement across the Meuse, so the III Corps, while assisting the main attack in the center, was directed to be prepared to force a crossing of the river if the enemy withdrew. There was to be no attack by the French XVII Corps-then on the heights east of the Meuse-until the crossing was started. The eastern edge of the Bois de Bourgogne was to be neutralized by heavy artillery concentrations of persistent gas.

The infantry advanced to the assault at 5:30 on the morning of 1 November, preceeded by a terrific two-hour artillery preparation. Squadrons of swift-flying, combat planes drove the enemy planes from the air and fired on the hostile infantry, while the bombing squadrons harassed important points behind the enemy's lines. The progress of the attack exceeded all expectations. In the center, the V Corps crushed all opposition and by early afternoon had advanced about six miles and captured Barricourt Heights, thus assuring the success of the whole operation. On its right, the III Corps made a deep advance, wheeling toward the Meuse River to protect that flank of the army. On the left, the I Corps, which faced the unbroken Hindenburg Line on most of its front, attacked and made an average gain of about 1/2 mile. Its extreme right flank made a rapid and deep advance keeping up with the left flank of the V Corps.

This deep penetration of the hostile lines, which overran the enemy artillery positions, caused the German High Command to issue orders on the night of 1 November for the withdrawal from the First Army front west of the Meuse.

The First Army continued to drive forward on the 2d and 3d of November. The III Corps forced the enemy across the Meuse River, the V Corps made a maximum advance of seven miles, and the I Corps gained ten miles. By 4 November the Germans were in full retreat west of the Meuse, although still vainly trying to check the rapid advance of the First Army by means of rear-guard actions and the use of machine guns placed in strong, commanding positions.

The pursuit continued until 7 November, when units of the I Corps reached the heights overlooking the city of Sedan. The occupation of these heights effectively cut the lateral railroad through Sedan, which was the main objective of the Meuse-Argonne offensive.

Source: Offensive Doctrines• Opening Phase of Battle. CAPTAIN REUBEN E. JENKINS, Infantry. RML Nº 77. June 1940.

Cheers. Raúl M 8-).
Attachments
image006.png
image006.png (133.82 KiB) Viewed 1702 times


The Ibis
Member
Posts: 417
Joined: 27 Dec 2015, 02:06
Location: The interwebs

Re: The Meuse Argonne: America's Greatest Battle

#3

Post by The Ibis » 12 Mar 2016, 20:51

Speaking of this subject, has anyone read the collection of essays in A Companion to the Meuse-Argonne Campaign, edited by Edward Lengel? It looks very good, but it is very pricey at the moment.

Thanks
"The secret of managing is to keep the guys who hate you away from the guys who are undecided." - Casey Stengel

User avatar
Sheldrake
Member
Posts: 3726
Joined: 28 Apr 2013, 18:14
Location: London
Contact:

Re: The Meuse Argonne: America's Greatest Battle

#4

Post by Sheldrake » 12 Mar 2016, 20:58

Good post. I have started a web site to promote the story of American Involvement in the First World War and what there is to see on the battlefields. This is a pilot site. http://americanvictory1918.weebly.com/

Sid Guttridge
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 12:19

Re: The Meuse Argonne: America's Greatest Battle

#5

Post by Sid Guttridge » 12 Mar 2016, 23:15

What is it that makes it "America's Greatest Battle"?

Are we just talking numbers here?

Sid

The Ibis
Member
Posts: 417
Joined: 27 Dec 2015, 02:06
Location: The interwebs

Re: The Meuse Argonne: America's Greatest Battle

#6

Post by The Ibis » 17 Sep 2017, 02:48

Good question Sid. I haven't looked at Palmer's book in ages but I imagine he used the term to describe the scope of the battle. Whatever Palmer meant, there is little question that the Meuse Argonne is America's greatest forgotten battle. I'd be surprised if 1 out of 50 Americans could identify it.
"The secret of managing is to keep the guys who hate you away from the guys who are undecided." - Casey Stengel

User avatar
Sheldrake
Member
Posts: 3726
Joined: 28 Apr 2013, 18:14
Location: London
Contact:

Re: The Meuse Argonne: America's Greatest Battle

#7

Post by Sheldrake » 17 Sep 2017, 09:27

Sid Guttridge wrote:What is it that makes it "America's Greatest Battle"?

Are we just talking numbers here?

Sid
By the numbers Argonne Meuse is comparable to the Normandy campaign in troops engaged by the end of August 1944: 1.2 million troops in a single offensive.

Argonne- Meuse is twice as bloody as Normandy. The American Army suffers casualties at an unprecedented rate. 122,000 casualties in 45 days. C. 2,700 casualties a day until 11 November: Omaha Beach + every day. These casualty rates are twice as intensive as the 90 day Normandy campaign. They are comparable to those suffered by the British on the Somme in 1916 - a byword for bloodiness.

The Meuse Argonne was part of a decisive battle that ended a four-year world war. It did not fizzle out on the German border.

This battle is as significant as the Normandy campaign but twice as bloody. It deserved greater recognition - not least for the lives sacrificed.

One million visitors a year visit the second largest AMBC Cemetery in France - the one in Normandy, containing 9,387 graves. Only a fraction of that number visit the Meuse Argonne cemetery which contains nearly 50% more graves. (14,246) These men's story deserves wider attention.

The Ibis
Member
Posts: 417
Joined: 27 Dec 2015, 02:06
Location: The interwebs

Re: The Meuse Argonne: America's Greatest Battle

#8

Post by The Ibis » 18 Sep 2017, 01:36

Sheldrake wrote:
Sid Guttridge wrote:What is it that makes it "America's Greatest Battle"?

Are we just talking numbers here?

Sid
By the numbers Argonne Meuse is comparable to the Normandy campaign in troops engaged by the end of August 1944: 1.2 million troops in a single offensive.

Argonne- Meuse is twice as bloody as Normandy. The American Army suffers casualties at an unprecedented rate. 122,000 casualties in 45 days. C. 2,700 casualties a day until 11 November: Omaha Beach + every day. These casualty rates are twice as intensive as the 90 day Normandy campaign. They are comparable to those suffered by the British on the Somme in 1916 - a byword for bloodiness.

The Meuse Argonne was part of a decisive battle that ended a four-year world war. It did not fizzle out on the German border.

This battle is as significant as the Normandy campaign but twice as bloody. It deserved greater recognition - not least for the lives sacrificed.

One million visitors a year visit the second largest AMBC Cemetery in France - the one in Normandy, containing 9,387 graves. Only a fraction of that number visit the Meuse Argonne cemetery which contains nearly 50% more graves. (14,246) These men's story deserves wider attention.
There have been a couple of books on the Meuse Argonne released in the past few years. There are two very recent books covering the 79th Division's attack on Montfaucon. I read one and am reading the second. I wouldn't recommend the first one and am not sure about the second one yet.

The 2014 Wiley Blackwell volume "A Companion to the Meuse-Argonne Campaign" edited by Ed Lengel is the place to go for this battle. I'm not sure there is anything that is remotely as useful for a single volume account. Unfortunately, it is really expensive.

Anyway, up until 1918, the Americans had never fought a battle that approached the scale of the one they fought in the Argonne. By that measure it was certainly America's greatest battle to that point. I'm not sure its significance matched that of Yorktown or the Overland Campaign, but these are very different.

Equating the significance to Normandy, I think, is also a tough sell. This is all subjective of course, but to me, comparing the Meuse Argonne battle, which was but one component of Foch's grand plan, to Normandy goes a bit too far. The Americans (and French Fourth Army) were basically stopped in their tracks in the Argonne for close to a month and only got moving at the very end of the war. In that regard, the Meuse Argonne's greatest significance might have been tying down divisions that could have been moved to seek to thwart the BEF, French and Belgians advancing on other parts of the front.

Normandy was a horse of an entirely different color. I suppose on could construct an argument that Normandy was one part of the Allied offensive in 1944, and the Soviets were attacking too, and there was the air campaign, and Italy, etc. But that just doesn't seem to fit.
"The secret of managing is to keep the guys who hate you away from the guys who are undecided." - Casey Stengel

User avatar
Sheldrake
Member
Posts: 3726
Joined: 28 Apr 2013, 18:14
Location: London
Contact:

Re: The Meuse Argonne: America's Greatest Battle

#9

Post by Sheldrake » 18 Sep 2017, 16:46

The Ibis wrote:Normandy was a horse of an entirely different color. I suppose on could construct an argument that Normandy was one part of the Allied offensive in 1944, and the Soviets were attacking too, and there was the air campaign, and Italy, etc. But that just doesn't seem to fit.
What is wrong with those statements?
The assault on Germany was, at least from the German point of view a concerted attack on their interlinked fronts. Unlike the USA whose PTO and ETO operations were disconnected, the German Fronts were interconnected. Formations could be transferred from one theatre to other in 48 hours. The air campaign starting with big week and Op Diadem in Italy were important preliminaries to Op Overlord and the Soviet Summer offensive and Op Drgoon were body blows.

Op Overlord did not take place in isolation with the US Army in the lead role. It was a part of an allied effort.

The Ibis
Member
Posts: 417
Joined: 27 Dec 2015, 02:06
Location: The interwebs

Re: The Meuse Argonne: America's Greatest Battle

#10

Post by The Ibis » 18 Sep 2017, 19:36

Sheldrake wrote:
The Ibis wrote:Normandy was a horse of an entirely different color. I suppose on could construct an argument that Normandy was one part of the Allied offensive in 1944, and the Soviets were attacking too, and there was the air campaign, and Italy, etc. But that just doesn't seem to fit.
What is wrong with those statements?
The assault on Germany was, at least from the German point of view a concerted attack on their interlinked fronts. Unlike the USA whose PTO and ETO operations were disconnected, the German Fronts were interconnected. Formations could be transferred from one theatre to other in 48 hours. The air campaign starting with big week and Op Diadem in Italy were important preliminaries to Op Overlord and the Soviet Summer offensive and Op Drgoon were body blows.

Op Overlord did not take place in isolation with the US Army in the lead role. It was a part of an allied effort.
Its not a question of being wrong. While one can construct similarities, I don't think they are the same in terms of impact.

If the actual impact of Normandy was simply tying down German divisions like (arguably) the Meuse Argonne, then the significance would be closer. But the Battle of Normandy did not just tie down divisions. It destroyed a large amount of German fighting power. It directly led to the liberation of land and then conquest of territory, which deprived the Germans of resources. And, to the extent the post-war situation is considered (I would think it should be given the discussion is of 'significance'), the Normandy campaign led to the liberation of a far greater portion of Europe by Anglo-American led forces, as opposed to those of the Soviet Union. Thus, the Western Allied victory the battle in Normandy directly moved the ball towards victory, while the Meuse Argonne was more tangential.

By the way, by the Spring of 1944, the 48 hour theater-to-theater comment needs some serious qualification. A unit might be shifted from the Ukraine to 'France' in a couple of days. But to enter the battlefield, additional days and often weeks would usually be required due to Anglo-American aerial interdiction capabilities.
"The secret of managing is to keep the guys who hate you away from the guys who are undecided." - Casey Stengel

scribae
Member
Posts: 3
Joined: 12 Feb 2019, 21:05
Location: France

Re: The Meuse Argonne: America's Greatest Battle

#11

Post by scribae » 12 Mar 2019, 17:52

Hello,

I am very interessted in the Meuse Argonne battle because my family lived very close to there.
I am looking after 2 US soldiers who took place in this battle and were billeted by my family a little bit earlier (I would say in August 1918 but I lack proofs)
Does anyone know how I could find tracks of those 2 men ?


1/ Ralph Corbett SMITH (who became Major General later). He was in the 5th Division but I want to know from when to when exactly and in wich battalion so I can track him better


2/Capitain S.Krasek. He was in 38 Infantry (this is what he wrote to my great-grand-mother) but I can't find anything concerning this regiment taking part of the St-Mihiel or Meuse-Argonne Battles.

Does any of you have a clue to help me out ? My purpose is to find out when exactly and how long they were billeted by my family.

Best regards from France.

Emma

The Ibis
Member
Posts: 417
Joined: 27 Dec 2015, 02:06
Location: The interwebs

Re: The Meuse Argonne: America's Greatest Battle

#12

Post by The Ibis » 15 Mar 2019, 21:22

scribae wrote:
12 Mar 2019, 17:52
Hello,

I am very interessted in the Meuse Argonne battle because my family lived very close to there.
I am looking after 2 US soldiers who took place in this battle and were billeted by my family a little bit earlier (I would say in August 1918 but I lack proofs)
Does anyone know how I could find tracks of those 2 men ?


1/ Ralph Corbett SMITH (who became Major General later). He was in the 5th Division but I want to know from when to when exactly and in wich battalion so I can track him better


2/Capitain S.Krasek. He was in 38 Infantry (this is what he wrote to my great-grand-mother) but I can't find anything concerning this regiment taking part of the St-Mihiel or Meuse-Argonne Battles.

Does any of you have a clue to help me out ? My purpose is to find out when exactly and how long they were billeted by my family.

Best regards from France.

Emma
No one has written a dissertation or book about Ralph Smith? The reverberations of Smith vs Smith on Saipan created quite a stir. You might post something in the USA in WWII section as people who frequent that section and might have information would not necessarily see this post in the WWI section.

You could also make a request to the US national archives. I would think that Smith's service record might be available.
"The secret of managing is to keep the guys who hate you away from the guys who are undecided." - Casey Stengel

Post Reply

Return to “First World War”