Need Help Identifying mystery helmet!

Discussions on all aspects of the First World War not covered in the other sections. Hosted by Terry Duncan.
Post Reply
User avatar
Volkssturmman
Member
Posts: 16
Joined: 04 Apr 2006, 01:17
Location: United States

Need Help Identifying mystery helmet!

#1

Post by Volkssturmman » 24 Jun 2006, 16:10

I need some help identifying a helmet. Today I was watching the third volume of my WW1 box set. When they began showing footage of the American offensive at the Argonne Forest, I noticed something odd about the American soldiers. I noticed an American medic wearing a German style helmet, but when I looked closer, it didn’t resemble the regular M16 and M18 style helmets used by the German Army. On further inspection, I noticed it had a rounder shaped and the back rim was extremely thin compared to any other German helmet in service at the time. Could these be a prototype or factory defect? I previously posted about another unknown helmet and was told it was simple a covering. But I can from this photo, there is no covering, it is in its true shape. If anyone can help identify it, answers would be appreciated. Thank you very much.
Attachments
Helmets.JPG
Helmets.JPG (14.46 KiB) Viewed 4095 times
DSC05857.JPG
DSC05857.JPG (156.27 KiB) Viewed 4096 times
DSC05854.JPG
DSC05854.JPG (119.73 KiB) Viewed 4096 times

User avatar
Peter H
Member
Posts: 28628
Joined: 30 Dec 2002, 14:18
Location: Australia

#2

Post by Peter H » 24 Jun 2006, 16:36

It looks like an Austrian Berndorfer helmet.US troops fought against AH units near Verdun in late 1918.

Photo from Ebay comparing Berndorfer(left) with Austrian M16.

Image


User avatar
ErichKiesan
Member
Posts: 6
Joined: 08 Oct 2004, 20:00
Location: Kansas

#3

Post by ErichKiesan » 29 Jun 2006, 22:56

It is the US Model 5 helmet - see http://www.nyc-techwriters.com/militari ... elmets.htm
The soldiers in the photo is American, and the helmet was tested in limited numbers on the western front in 1918.

User avatar
Chavusch
Member
Posts: 81
Joined: 25 Aug 2006, 17:30
Location: Walnut CA USA

#4

Post by Chavusch » 01 Sep 2006, 21:49

Swiss Model WWI , regards

Animal
Member
Posts: 362
Joined: 30 Nov 2005, 10:12
Location: Scottsdale, AZ

#5

Post by Animal » 03 Sep 2006, 07:07

ErichKiesan wrote:It is the US Model 5 helmet - see http://www.nyc-techwriters.com/militari ... elmets.htm
The soldiers in the photo is American, and the helmet was tested in limited numbers on the western front in 1918.
American? The uniforms and cartridge pouches look Austrian, other than the lace bars on the collar, where the rank insignia and arm of service would normally be displayed.

User avatar
ErichKiesan
Member
Posts: 6
Joined: 08 Oct 2004, 20:00
Location: Kansas

#6

Post by ErichKiesan » 05 Sep 2006, 21:59

Animal wrote:
ErichKiesan wrote:It is the US Model 5 helmet - see http://www.nyc-techwriters.com/militari ... elmets.htm
The soldiers in the photo is American, and the helmet was tested in limited numbers on the western front in 1918.
American? The uniforms and cartridge pouches look Austrian, other than the lace bars on the collar, where the rank insignia and arm of service would normally be displayed.
He meant the first photo, of the US Army in the Argonne (with medical corpsman wearing the US Model 5 helmet - very similar to, but not identical with the Swiss M1918 helmet).

Erich

User avatar
Sewer King
Member
Posts: 1711
Joined: 18 Feb 2004, 05:35
Location: northern Virginia

#7

Post by Sewer King » 11 Sep 2006, 01:18

Agreed, this is the Experimental No. 5 helmet.

As described in America's Munitions, 1917-1918: Report of Benedict Croswell, Assistant Secretary of War, Director of Munitions. (Washington, DC: US Government Printing Office, 1919), pages 225-226:

"Helmet No. 5 was strongly recommended by the American experts, but was not accepted by the General Staff. It was designed by the armor committee at the [New York] Metropolitan Museum of Art in conjunction with the Engineering DIvision of the [US Army] Ordnance Department. Hale & Kilburn undertook to manufacture these helmets, which were to be painted, assembled, and packed by the Ford Motor Co., at its Philadelphia plant. Various component parts of the helmet were sublet in experimental quantities to numerous manufacturers.

"The No. 5 helmet, complete, weighed 2 pounds, 6 1/2 ounces. It combined the virtues of several types of [other] helmets. It gave a maximum of protection for its weight. It was comparatively easy to produce [compared to Helmets Nos. 3 and 4]. This helmet, with slight variations, was later adopted as the standard helmet of the Swiss Army. The latest German helmet, it is interesting to note, was approaching similar lines."
EricKiesan wrote:... the US Model 5 helmet - very similar to, but not identical with the Swiss M1918 helmet.
As explained above, but I always assumed that the shell was virtually the same and that the "slight variations" were in the liner or chinstrap. In fact I am a little surprised that the No. 5 seemed to use a "German-style" leather suspension with three pads. Compare it to the knitted twine suspension of the standard US WW1 helmet and the need to conserve leather at the time.

The "latest German helmet" I took to be the Model 1917(?) where the shell slopes almost straight down to the brim.

There is another book by Bashford Dean, the very armor historian at the New York Metropolitan Museum of Art who pioneered the helmet designs described above. It's surprisingly fairly available in reprint -- A History of Helmets and Body Armor in Modern Warfare, originally published in 1920. Like much of my library, my copy is packed away at the moment so I can't look up any further detail about Helmet No. 5, but there is a lot already here.

User avatar
Peter H
Member
Posts: 28628
Joined: 30 Dec 2002, 14:18
Location: Australia

Re: Need Help Identifying mystery helmet!

#8

Post by Peter H » 28 Apr 2009, 13:13

Some US Experimental Helmets here

From gunboards forum.
Attachments
ww1helmets.jpg
ww1helmets.jpg (99.88 KiB) Viewed 3102 times

Spud2865
New member
Posts: 1
Joined: 21 Jun 2010, 04:04

Re: Need Help Identifying mystery helmet!

#9

Post by Spud2865 » 07 Sep 2010, 04:57

M18 Swiss Helmet
Attachments
M18 Swiss Helmet.jpg
M18 Swiss Helmet.jpg (28.37 KiB) Viewed 2413 times

User avatar
Tim Smith
Member
Posts: 6177
Joined: 19 Aug 2002, 13:15
Location: UK

Re: Need Help Identifying mystery helmet!

#10

Post by Tim Smith » 07 Sep 2010, 08:29

I can't believe the Americans seriously considered helmets with visors! Incredible....they look medieval. 8O

MLW
Member
Posts: 644
Joined: 12 Jan 2008, 05:35
Location: Maryland
Contact:

Re: Need Help Identifying mystery helmet!

#11

Post by MLW » 07 Sep 2010, 10:48

The sole surviving example of Prototype No 8 is at the Fort George G. Meade Museum in Maryland.

Regards, Marc
www.wfa-eastcoast.org
Attachments
Prototype Helmet No 8.jpg
Prototype Helmet No 8.jpg (27.42 KiB) Viewed 2400 times

Animal
Member
Posts: 362
Joined: 30 Nov 2005, 10:12
Location: Scottsdale, AZ

Re: Need Help Identifying mystery helmet!

#12

Post by Animal » 10 Sep 2010, 05:38

Peter H wrote:Some US Experimental Helmets here

From gunboards forum.
The 2 in the middle in second row and the one on the left of the bottom row look like they might've been the inspiration for the M40 Soviet helmet and/or the M34 Italian helmet, and the one on the right of that row looks like it may have helped inspire the M1935 Czechoslovakian helmet.

Matt65
New member
Posts: 1
Joined: 12 Feb 2021, 11:31
Location: Perth, Australia

Re: Need Help Identifying mystery helmet!

#13

Post by Matt65 » 12 Feb 2021, 11:35

hi Peter H. , I'm about to finish a book on WW1 helmets, would you be so kind to send me or post a copy ofe the photo of the two Austrian soldiers for that use? cheers. Matt

Post Reply

Return to “First World War”