Russian tanks
Agree. Armies of WWI didn't need in super-heavy tanks with powerful naval guns or howitzers, they needed in medium tanks armed with light guns and MGs for infantry support on combat field and overcoming enemy field defense lines [ex. British Mk IV-V, French Schneider or Russian tank of Rybinsk factory to be in-topic]. Also light tanks [FT-17 or Russian half-tracks] could be of great importance.
Regards, BP
Regards, BP
Some info about interesting wheeled heavy tank of Lebedenko. Captain N.N. Lebedenko [engineer and chief of development laboratory of War Ministry] started the development of his AFV with wheels of large diameter [for crossing any trenches and walls] in 1914 [the idea of the tank with large wheels was inspired by MidAsiatic cart-araba with big wooden wheels]. Heavy tank of Lebedenko looked like very oversized artillery carriage. Each of two front driving wheels of bicyclic type [9 m in diameter] was drived by 240hp engine “Maybach”, taken from knocked down German dirigible. The tail wide roller of much smaller diameter was steering. Original transmission [developed by A. Mikulin, famous engine designer in future] represented conical gear and two usual car wheels, pressed by buffer spring to the rims of main large wheels [gear ratio was 250! so large wheels made only 10rpm whereas engines had 2500 rpm]. 4-6 "Maxim" MGs located in central upper and lower turrets and two guns in side sponsons for effective fire from above against enemy trenches.
The project of Lebedenko was approved in May 1915 by Central military technical directorate and he received a large sum of money [210.000 rubles], when he demonstrated to generals and presented the 30-cm model of his tank drived by gramophone spring [the model was packed into box from redwood with golden clasps] to Nicholas II. Interesting, that Nicholas II played with the model during one hour and tested its “cross-country” ability using books from his library. Such engineers as famous professor N.E. Zhukovsky, student A.A. Mikulin [academician in future] and student B.S. Stechkin [also academician in future] paricipated in the project.
It was planned to make sectional tank in order to transport it to the front easily.
Captain Lebedenko dreamed about breakthrough of German front line during one night with a lot of wheeled tanks of his construction. Tank of Lebedenko was assembled from sections under great level of secrecy in the forest near Dmitrov [60 km from Moscow] in August 1915. The hull and turrets were made by workshops of Moscow Hamovniki barracks, wheels were made by Lubertsy works near Moscow [bridge engineers calculated strength properties], also the Sormovo works participated [all involved factories didn't know that they built tank because of high level of secrecy]. The received plate metal was 1.5 fold thicker than planned so the weight of tank increased and two 240hp engines became underpowered for it. The test site was surrounded with wiring and guarded by cossacks. The test was unsuccessful despite of quite good project idea of Lebedenko [powerful but relatively cheap and reliable tank, easily to drive] – engineer Stechkin started the engines, Mikulin was driver, unarmed tank began to move, fell thick tree and stopped in 10 m because the tail roller caught soft ground hole. Engines gave full power, large wheels cranked but engine power was not enough to free small tail roller. The work was stopped because of money shortage to install larger tail roller and purchase 300hp engines [Mikulin and Stechkin developed and built their own engine AMBS in 1916-1917 but it was unreliable], also army engineers noticed significant vulnerability of large wheels to artillery fire, high ground pressure and impossibility to use tank armament through the area of large wheels. One more attempt to test the tank of Lebedenko was made by Reds in 1918, also unsuccessful. Abandoned and rusty gigantic tank remained in forest 8 years till 1923 when it was dismantled. Tank of Lebedenko [sometimes called by its designers as “Czar-tank”, "Netopyr"/"Bat" or "Mastodon"] was the largest of ever built AFVs.
Specifications: weight 40-44 tons [60 tons with antibullet armor], dimensions 17.8 x 12.5 x 9 m, armament – 2x37mm guns and 2-6x7.62mm MGs, two gasoline engines “Maybach” 200-250 hp each, speed 17-20 km/h, crew 10 men.
Computer 3D-model of the tank: http://www.rusring.net/~levin/levin3d/ntp.htm
Photo and drawings of heavy wheeled tank of Lebedenko [1915-1917] are from http://www.armor.kiev.ua and http://www.waronline.org/write/his-mage ... pter5.html
Regards, BP
Wheeled heavy tank of Lebedenko during test, photo from August 1915
The project of Lebedenko was approved in May 1915 by Central military technical directorate and he received a large sum of money [210.000 rubles], when he demonstrated to generals and presented the 30-cm model of his tank drived by gramophone spring [the model was packed into box from redwood with golden clasps] to Nicholas II. Interesting, that Nicholas II played with the model during one hour and tested its “cross-country” ability using books from his library. Such engineers as famous professor N.E. Zhukovsky, student A.A. Mikulin [academician in future] and student B.S. Stechkin [also academician in future] paricipated in the project.
It was planned to make sectional tank in order to transport it to the front easily.
Captain Lebedenko dreamed about breakthrough of German front line during one night with a lot of wheeled tanks of his construction. Tank of Lebedenko was assembled from sections under great level of secrecy in the forest near Dmitrov [60 km from Moscow] in August 1915. The hull and turrets were made by workshops of Moscow Hamovniki barracks, wheels were made by Lubertsy works near Moscow [bridge engineers calculated strength properties], also the Sormovo works participated [all involved factories didn't know that they built tank because of high level of secrecy]. The received plate metal was 1.5 fold thicker than planned so the weight of tank increased and two 240hp engines became underpowered for it. The test site was surrounded with wiring and guarded by cossacks. The test was unsuccessful despite of quite good project idea of Lebedenko [powerful but relatively cheap and reliable tank, easily to drive] – engineer Stechkin started the engines, Mikulin was driver, unarmed tank began to move, fell thick tree and stopped in 10 m because the tail roller caught soft ground hole. Engines gave full power, large wheels cranked but engine power was not enough to free small tail roller. The work was stopped because of money shortage to install larger tail roller and purchase 300hp engines [Mikulin and Stechkin developed and built their own engine AMBS in 1916-1917 but it was unreliable], also army engineers noticed significant vulnerability of large wheels to artillery fire, high ground pressure and impossibility to use tank armament through the area of large wheels. One more attempt to test the tank of Lebedenko was made by Reds in 1918, also unsuccessful. Abandoned and rusty gigantic tank remained in forest 8 years till 1923 when it was dismantled. Tank of Lebedenko [sometimes called by its designers as “Czar-tank”, "Netopyr"/"Bat" or "Mastodon"] was the largest of ever built AFVs.
Specifications: weight 40-44 tons [60 tons with antibullet armor], dimensions 17.8 x 12.5 x 9 m, armament – 2x37mm guns and 2-6x7.62mm MGs, two gasoline engines “Maybach” 200-250 hp each, speed 17-20 km/h, crew 10 men.
Computer 3D-model of the tank: http://www.rusring.net/~levin/levin3d/ntp.htm
Photo and drawings of heavy wheeled tank of Lebedenko [1915-1917] are from http://www.armor.kiev.ua and http://www.waronline.org/write/his-mage ... pter5.html
Regards, BP
Wheeled heavy tank of Lebedenko during test, photo from August 1915
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- Wheeled heavy tank of captain Lebedenko, 1915-1917.jpg (35.56 KiB) Viewed 19765 times
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- Czar-tank of Lebedenko.JPG (58.45 KiB) Viewed 19770 times
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- Wheeled tank of Lebedenko.jpg (36.78 KiB) Viewed 19772 times
One more interesting project [never built] was the giant self-propelled armored battery "Improved tortoise" by Russian engineer-mechanic S.P. Navrotsky, 1917. That AFV should have main turret with commander turret, front drive spherical large molded roller [6.5 m in diameter, made from 30mm armor] and two rear smaller cylinders [2.5 m in diameter]; weight 192-196 tons; dimensions 8.36 x 6.1 x 8.36 m; two engines 125-150 hp [inside the front roller]; armor 20-30mm; armament - 2x203.4mm howitzers [inside the front roller], 2x152.4mm guns, 4x101.6mm guns, 8x76.2mm guns and 10x7.62mm MGs [!!! ]; crew 60-100 men [ ].
The project was received by Central military technical directorate 20.04.1917. The project was rejected because of bulky construction of low mobility, also the project was developed quite poor.
The project was received by Central military technical directorate 20.04.1917. The project was rejected because of bulky construction of low mobility, also the project was developed quite poor.
I found a very interesting info. 28.09.1916 Russian spy sent a telegram to the Russian General Staff with the description of specifications of newest British weapon - tanks. The information was sent to Central military technical directorate 20.11.1916. The chief of directorate lieutenant-general Mileant replied next day - "We are not going to produce such monsters because we already have our own alike". He had in view wheeled armored vehicle of Lebedenko for sure.
One of the first WWI project of tracked cross-country armored fighting vehicle was developed by Russian inventor, pilot and foreman of Riga engineering plant A.A. Porokhovshchikov [1892-1943], who sent a proposal to the Select committee of War Department in August 1914. The idea was accepted. The first Russian tank “Vezdekhod” [“Off-roader”] was a two-man tankette [ring bridge], equipped with a single wide rubber track on four cylinders [the guide cylinder had track adjuster] and two small steering wheeles, and with rotating turret with MG “Maxim”. The engine, steering wheel and gear box were taken from car “Ford”. Driver and commander [gunner] sat shoulder to shoulder [which was not convenient for MG control during combat]. “Vezdekhod” used two small swivel wheels and rear cylinder [running] during the movement along good roads [so its speed was near 40 km/h], but for cross-country movement all four cylinders with track were used [speed was near 25 km/h]. “Vezdekhod” had multilayered armor [2mm cemented steel, spacer filled with sea-grass and second steel leaf = 8 mm total]. The shape of the hull [water-proof] was of very high quality and looked much better than box-like hulls of AFVs of WWI period, the problem is that it should be quite complicated to produce such hulls in 1915.
The General military technical directorate didn’t approve the proposal and calculation of costs, but the engineer supply service of North-Western front supported the project a lot. 9960 roubles were assigned for the building of tank 13.01.1915, using special new workshops of Nizhny Novgorod regiment in Riga. The original small tank was finished on 15.05.1915 [army supervisor of the project – colonel Poklevsky-Kozello]. It was tested at first with wooden hull and ballast [sacks with sand] for compensation the armor weight [armored hull was tested independently for bullet resistance]. Test performed on 18.05.1915 showed slipping the track from cylinders, but that problem was solved in one month using toothed gearing.
Some sources claim successful “Vezdekhod” as the first tank in the world, which was built and tested earlier than British tanks. In reality tests [performed in June 1915] were not very successful and army officers noticed unfinished construction of the tank and vulnerability of rubber truck. Nevertheless, “Vezdekhod” had very good maneuvrability, speed and cross-country ability [the last one was much better than of usual cars].
The further development of the tank was made in St. Petersburg [Petrograd] till the beginning of 1916, but the expensive work was stopped as it was realized that small maneuvrable and high-speed tankette with rubber track couldn’t overcome large defense wiring [the tank was intended for infantry support, reconnaissance, pursuit of enemy]. The series production of tanks in Russia during WWI didn’t take place, and publication in Russian newspaper “Novoe vremya” under the title “Land fleet is the Russian invention” about new weapon [tanks] in September 1916 showed the bad role of General military technical directorate in development tanks in Russia during WWI. State Duma discussed the question about the use of native AFVs [including tanks] in the end of 1916; A.A. Porokhovshchikov received the order to develop more powerful tank – “Vezdekhod-2” [or “Vezdekhod year 16”]. The project was introduced to armored car department of General military technical directorate 19.01.1917, but army bureaucratism and revolution stopped all work [19.10.1917 the financial support of the project was rejected as the project was insufficiently developed]. A.A. Porokhovshchikov could built only the model of “Vezdekhod-2”, which represented the combination of wheeled car ant tracked tractor, also using the single rubber track on four cylinders, but four car wheels were added [wheels were used on good roads, track rewinded idly in that case; also front wheels were swivel]. “Vezdekhod-2” had armor of 8 mm, armament – 3-4 7.62mm “Maxim”s [2-3 in rotating original turret]; engine and transmission located in the rear part of the hull.
Specifications of “Vezdekhod”: weight 4 t, dimensions 3.6x2x1.5 m [without turret], car engine 20 hp with drive shaft, speed 25 km/h, armor 8 mm, 2 men crew, 1x7.62mm “Maxim”
Photo and drawings of small tank "Vezdekhod" of Porokhovshchikov [1914-1916] are from http://www.armor.kiev.ua , http://www.tankmuseum.ru , and http://www.waronline.org/write/his-mage ... pter5.html
The General military technical directorate didn’t approve the proposal and calculation of costs, but the engineer supply service of North-Western front supported the project a lot. 9960 roubles were assigned for the building of tank 13.01.1915, using special new workshops of Nizhny Novgorod regiment in Riga. The original small tank was finished on 15.05.1915 [army supervisor of the project – colonel Poklevsky-Kozello]. It was tested at first with wooden hull and ballast [sacks with sand] for compensation the armor weight [armored hull was tested independently for bullet resistance]. Test performed on 18.05.1915 showed slipping the track from cylinders, but that problem was solved in one month using toothed gearing.
Some sources claim successful “Vezdekhod” as the first tank in the world, which was built and tested earlier than British tanks. In reality tests [performed in June 1915] were not very successful and army officers noticed unfinished construction of the tank and vulnerability of rubber truck. Nevertheless, “Vezdekhod” had very good maneuvrability, speed and cross-country ability [the last one was much better than of usual cars].
The further development of the tank was made in St. Petersburg [Petrograd] till the beginning of 1916, but the expensive work was stopped as it was realized that small maneuvrable and high-speed tankette with rubber track couldn’t overcome large defense wiring [the tank was intended for infantry support, reconnaissance, pursuit of enemy]. The series production of tanks in Russia during WWI didn’t take place, and publication in Russian newspaper “Novoe vremya” under the title “Land fleet is the Russian invention” about new weapon [tanks] in September 1916 showed the bad role of General military technical directorate in development tanks in Russia during WWI. State Duma discussed the question about the use of native AFVs [including tanks] in the end of 1916; A.A. Porokhovshchikov received the order to develop more powerful tank – “Vezdekhod-2” [or “Vezdekhod year 16”]. The project was introduced to armored car department of General military technical directorate 19.01.1917, but army bureaucratism and revolution stopped all work [19.10.1917 the financial support of the project was rejected as the project was insufficiently developed]. A.A. Porokhovshchikov could built only the model of “Vezdekhod-2”, which represented the combination of wheeled car ant tracked tractor, also using the single rubber track on four cylinders, but four car wheels were added [wheels were used on good roads, track rewinded idly in that case; also front wheels were swivel]. “Vezdekhod-2” had armor of 8 mm, armament – 3-4 7.62mm “Maxim”s [2-3 in rotating original turret]; engine and transmission located in the rear part of the hull.
Specifications of “Vezdekhod”: weight 4 t, dimensions 3.6x2x1.5 m [without turret], car engine 20 hp with drive shaft, speed 25 km/h, armor 8 mm, 2 men crew, 1x7.62mm “Maxim”
Photo and drawings of small tank "Vezdekhod" of Porokhovshchikov [1914-1916] are from http://www.armor.kiev.ua , http://www.tankmuseum.ru , and http://www.waronline.org/write/his-mage ... pter5.html
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- Tank Vezdekhod of A.A. Porokhovshchikov [without turret], test in May 1915 [Porokhovshchikov to the left].jpg (18.94 KiB) Viewed 19491 times
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- Vezdekhod with MG turret.jpg (48.59 KiB) Viewed 19486 times
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- Vezdekhod of A.A. Porokhovshchikov, 1915.JPG (33.19 KiB) Viewed 19484 times
Several additional images of small tank "Vezdekhod" [prototype, 1914-1915] are from http://www.waronline.org/write/his-mage ... pter5.html and http://www.tankmuseum.ru/
Image of small tank "Vezdekhod-2" [project, 1916-1917] is from http://www.waronline.org/write/his-mage ... pter5.html
Image of small tank "Vezdekhod-2" [project, 1916-1917] is from http://www.waronline.org/write/his-mage ... pter5.html
- Luftflotte2
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Re: Russian tanks
The other photo of this interesting little monster. Is this truly the first tank in the world?
from http://www.activeboard.com/forum.spark? ... ID=5016212
from http://www.activeboard.com/forum.spark? ... ID=5016212
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- vezdekhod0nw.jpg (156.56 KiB) Viewed 14313 times
Re: Russian tanks
Hello!
Because: a. It never had an armament (MG turret is simply a fruit of artist's imagination).
and
b. Its protection was quite symbolic.
P.S. There was an article about this vehicle in Russian magazine Техника и Вооружение about 8-10 years ago. If you are interested in in, I can search for it during the weekend.
Best regards, Aleks
To cut long story short, no.Luftflotte2 wrote:Is this truly the first tank in the world?
Because: a. It never had an armament (MG turret is simply a fruit of artist's imagination).
and
b. Its protection was quite symbolic.
P.S. There was an article about this vehicle in Russian magazine Техника и Вооружение about 8-10 years ago. If you are interested in in, I can search for it during the weekend.
Best regards, Aleks
- Luftflotte2
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Re: Russian tanks
If it's not too much trouble sure! But then again I can't read RussianAVV wrote: If you are interested in it, I can search for it during the weekend.
Re: Russian tanks
Yes, it makes a problem.Luftflotte2 wrote:But then again I can't read Russian
Still, I gave two main points of this article (IIRC) in my previous post.
Best regards, Aleks
- Luftflotte2
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Re: Russian tanks
Ok well I have a question. Why wasn't there a turret with a MG on the Vezdekhod?
Re: Russian tanks
I've found the article I've written about (sorry, in Russian)
http://vadimvswar.narod.ru/ALL_OUT/TiVO ... TLe001.htm
In the beginning of 1917 Porokhovshchikov desinged Vezhdekhod 2 which had 3(!) MGs, but was only a project. It was rejected due to a number of technical drawbacks.
Best regards, Aleks
http://vadimvswar.narod.ru/ALL_OUT/TiVO ... TLe001.htm
Inititially, Vezhdekhod was desinged as all-terrain transport vehicle, so it had no armament. Its dimensions - length 3.6 metres, height 1.6 metres, width 2 m. - did not allow to place at least one MG and a gunner.Luftflotte2 wrote:Why wasn't there a turret with a MG on the Vezdekhod?
In the beginning of 1917 Porokhovshchikov desinged Vezhdekhod 2 which had 3(!) MGs, but was only a project. It was rejected due to a number of technical drawbacks.
Best regards, Aleks
- Luftflotte2
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Re: Russian tanks
Oh I thought it was a PDF. I can translate that webpage but not a PDF!
Ok I have one more question. What was the point of a single track and having two extra guiding wheels. Wouldn't this just seem like a difficult design?
Ok I have one more question. What was the point of a single track and having two extra guiding wheels. Wouldn't this just seem like a difficult design?
Re: Russian tanks
"Is this truly the first tank in the world?" it's not a "tank" it's an armored personnel carrier (APC)