You may already be aware of it but Tony Ashworth's Trench Warfare 1914-1918: The Live and Let System contains information on this subject. It may also help guide you to some primary sources.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Trench-Warfare- ... 488&sr=8-1
Historian disputes Hitlers war record
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Orwell1984
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Re: Historian disputes Hitlers war record
I've been skimming through the first section of the book and there are a few things that I have a bit of an issue with:
1) the author claims that the EK1 was the highest award in the "German army" that someone of "his rank" could be awarded.
2) The author claims that the survival rate among the regimental runners (for RIR16 alone), being, he claims, 100%, is "proof" that H. had a relatively safe existence during his service. Yet the author himself relates how men from the regimental HQ were employed to take a specific objective, during the course of which a number of enemy prisoners were taken. This suggests that toward the end of the war, men from the regiment's HQ were being used in combat. If you look at most any other infantry regimental history, one will find that this was not an uncommon occurrence toward the end of the war. So evidently H.'s last months of service, at least, weren't all that "safe" or far from the front lines after all.
3) with that in mind, the author then proceeds to cover the period between that event and H.' departure from the regiment in a few vague paragraphs. So to the period following his return on 27 September until he was wounded on 13/14 October. What I find interesting is that the author asserts that during this period H. "only had enough time to witness, but not understand, the disintegration of the regiment" (p. 220) Given the fact that events surrounding H. being "lightly" wounded are somewhat significant, I find it curious that the author chooses to gloss over this period.
4) I also notice that the author is considerably disinclined to discuss any "heroics" on the part of the men from RIR16, unless they happen to have been Gutmann or one of the other handful of Jewish members of the regiment. All things considered, I think the men--given that this book in part was supposed to be about the regiment as a whole--deserve or recognition and praise for what they had to endure. I also don't buy the author's claims that anti-Semitism wouldn't have been an issue to some extent; it may not have been overt, and Gutmann & the others have chosen not to make an issue of it in later years, but to suggest that it really wasn't a factor in their wartime experience is a tad absurd.
1) the author claims that the EK1 was the highest award in the "German army" that someone of "his rank" could be awarded.
2) The author claims that the survival rate among the regimental runners (for RIR16 alone), being, he claims, 100%, is "proof" that H. had a relatively safe existence during his service. Yet the author himself relates how men from the regimental HQ were employed to take a specific objective, during the course of which a number of enemy prisoners were taken. This suggests that toward the end of the war, men from the regiment's HQ were being used in combat. If you look at most any other infantry regimental history, one will find that this was not an uncommon occurrence toward the end of the war. So evidently H.'s last months of service, at least, weren't all that "safe" or far from the front lines after all.
3) with that in mind, the author then proceeds to cover the period between that event and H.' departure from the regiment in a few vague paragraphs. So to the period following his return on 27 September until he was wounded on 13/14 October. What I find interesting is that the author asserts that during this period H. "only had enough time to witness, but not understand, the disintegration of the regiment" (p. 220) Given the fact that events surrounding H. being "lightly" wounded are somewhat significant, I find it curious that the author chooses to gloss over this period.
4) I also notice that the author is considerably disinclined to discuss any "heroics" on the part of the men from RIR16, unless they happen to have been Gutmann or one of the other handful of Jewish members of the regiment. All things considered, I think the men--given that this book in part was supposed to be about the regiment as a whole--deserve or recognition and praise for what they had to endure. I also don't buy the author's claims that anti-Semitism wouldn't have been an issue to some extent; it may not have been overt, and Gutmann & the others have chosen not to make an issue of it in later years, but to suggest that it really wasn't a factor in their wartime experience is a tad absurd.
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Sid Guttridge
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Re: Historian disputes Hitlers war record
Hi Ken,
If you can only find four points to take "a bit of an issue with" in the first 220 pages, then it must be quite an accurate book.
I don't quite follow your point (2). Surely, in claiming that the survival rate among the regimental runners of RIR16 in the given period was 100%, he is stating a fact not in dispute. If so, surely it is evidence that H. had a relatively safe existence during that part of his service, either through luck or judgement.?
Cheers,
Sid.
If you can only find four points to take "a bit of an issue with" in the first 220 pages, then it must be quite an accurate book.
I don't quite follow your point (2). Surely, in claiming that the survival rate among the regimental runners of RIR16 in the given period was 100%, he is stating a fact not in dispute. If so, surely it is evidence that H. had a relatively safe existence during that part of his service, either through luck or judgement.?
Cheers,
Sid.
Re: Historian disputes Hitlers war record
Hello Gentlemen,
Pardon me but what was the final consensus on this book? Worth reading? Owning?
Alternative reading to Hitlers WW1 service?
You know what I mean.
Regards
FC
Pardon me but what was the final consensus on this book? Worth reading? Owning?
Alternative reading to Hitlers WW1 service?
You know what I mean.
Regards
FC
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Sid Guttridge
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Re: Historian disputes Hitlers war record
Hi Felix,
I think it was well worth reading, because nobody else seems to have attempted to forensically analyse Hitler's 1914-18 war record in such detail.
The general tendency seems to have been to accept the Nazi Party version at its own estimate of Hitler's WWI record because the Hitler of WWII was far more significant than the minor footnote he might merit in the history of WWI.
This book doesn't do a hatchet job on Hitler. He is simply put more squarely in his real environment - which was risky enough anyway.
Cheers,
Sid.
I think it was well worth reading, because nobody else seems to have attempted to forensically analyse Hitler's 1914-18 war record in such detail.
The general tendency seems to have been to accept the Nazi Party version at its own estimate of Hitler's WWI record because the Hitler of WWII was far more significant than the minor footnote he might merit in the history of WWI.
This book doesn't do a hatchet job on Hitler. He is simply put more squarely in his real environment - which was risky enough anyway.
Cheers,
Sid.
Re: Historian disputes Hitlers war record
Perfect thanks.
Re: Historian disputes Hitlers war record
Have you read Williams' book "Corporal Hitler and the Great War 1914-1918"?
Before reading/ordering Weber's book, read the two-star review on amazon.com by Arnold Bjorn.
Before reading/ordering Weber's book, read the two-star review on amazon.com by Arnold Bjorn.
Re: Historian disputes Hitlers war record
Thanks Ken.
I did not know about the other book. A bit pricey for casual reading and so will ILL it. I did read all of the Weber reviews on Amazon and came away with the following synopsis: "New information, modern bias in the interpretation, and some questionable sources add and detract from the work." But the Weber book is available at the local library.
I did not know about the other book. A bit pricey for casual reading and so will ILL it. I did read all of the Weber reviews on Amazon and came away with the following synopsis: "New information, modern bias in the interpretation, and some questionable sources add and detract from the work." But the Weber book is available at the local library.
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Sid Guttridge
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Re: Historian disputes Hitlers war record
Hi Felix,
By all means Bjorn's review, but read the others as well, because you are being exclusively directed to one of the lowest graded of 25 of them.
Better still, read the book and become perhaps only the second person on this thread to have done so in seven pages of comment!
It is very noticeable on this thread that almost all adverse comment seems to come from posters who have either only read reviews or excerpts of it. As a result, most of the attacks on the book tend to be singularly under informed.
Best to be your own judge!
Cheers,
Sid.
By all means Bjorn's review, but read the others as well, because you are being exclusively directed to one of the lowest graded of 25 of them.
Better still, read the book and become perhaps only the second person on this thread to have done so in seven pages of comment!
It is very noticeable on this thread that almost all adverse comment seems to come from posters who have either only read reviews or excerpts of it. As a result, most of the attacks on the book tend to be singularly under informed.
Best to be your own judge!
Cheers,
Sid.
Re: Historian disputes Hitlers war record
Well, Sid, if you think that Weber's book goes into "such detail" then you should be able to provide us with a complete and accurate list of all of the places the regimental HQ was located, the exact dates they were there, and the precise distance between them and the front lines.
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steverodgers801
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Re: Historian disputes Hitlers war record
The fact that he won an Iron Cross , which was a very rare feat for his position and rank means he did not play it safe. Do not underestimate Hitlers survival on his belief in his destiny. He had to have been a big risk taker to win the award and to believe he was chosen by destiny.
Re: Historian disputes Hitlers war record
But Weber's contention is that H. the odd-ball outsider only managed to get the EK1 because he ass-kissed his superior - who happened to be Jewish. Weber insists that he did nothing "heroic" to deserve it, hence at least one review of the book by a British newspaper proclaimed H. to have been "a coward".
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Sid Guttridge
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Re: Historian disputes Hitlers war record
Hi Ken S.,
Perhaps you would care to be more specific with your allegations and provide page numbers to support them, so I can check against my copy.
I have the book and and can't see anything resembling your allegations in it.
Over to you.
A curious Sid.
Perhaps you would care to be more specific with your allegations and provide page numbers to support them, so I can check against my copy.
I have the book and and can't see anything resembling your allegations in it.
Over to you.
A curious Sid.
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Sid Guttridge
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Re: Historian disputes Hitlers war record
Hi steverodgers,
Anyone who served in the infantry for four years during WWI "did not play it safe". I, for one, would not begrudge Hitler his Iron Cross I, and neither does the author.
But the fact remains that, once he became a regimental runner, Hitler was not in the front line for as long or as regularly as the ordinary infantry and it appears that all his fellow regimental runners also survived the war. In this, I would suggest they were very lucky, not shirkers, because generally being a runner was an exposed and risky occupation.
Any new facts on Hitler are of interest to those who want to know his phenomenon better, and this book has looked out some previously unexploited sources. It is therefore to be welcomed.
If no one does this research, we will have to continue to accept the received hagiographic official NSDAP version of his life without question, which strikes me as not the most disinterested of sources!
We need more books like this, not less.
Cheers,
Sid.
Anyone who served in the infantry for four years during WWI "did not play it safe". I, for one, would not begrudge Hitler his Iron Cross I, and neither does the author.
But the fact remains that, once he became a regimental runner, Hitler was not in the front line for as long or as regularly as the ordinary infantry and it appears that all his fellow regimental runners also survived the war. In this, I would suggest they were very lucky, not shirkers, because generally being a runner was an exposed and risky occupation.
Any new facts on Hitler are of interest to those who want to know his phenomenon better, and this book has looked out some previously unexploited sources. It is therefore to be welcomed.
If no one does this research, we will have to continue to accept the received hagiographic official NSDAP version of his life without question, which strikes me as not the most disinterested of sources!
We need more books like this, not less.
Cheers,
Sid.
Re: Historian disputes Hitlers war record
Sid,
As I suspected, you completely avoid answering the question; so I will ask you once again to make sure you get it:
Well, Sid, if you think that Weber's book goes into "such detail" then you should be able to provide us with a complete and accurate list of all of the places the regimental HQ was located, the exact dates they were there, and the precise distance between them and the front lines.
As I suspected, you completely avoid answering the question; so I will ask you once again to make sure you get it:
Well, Sid, if you think that Weber's book goes into "such detail" then you should be able to provide us with a complete and accurate list of all of the places the regimental HQ was located, the exact dates they were there, and the precise distance between them and the front lines.