The Crowe Memorandum

Discussions on all aspects of the First World War not covered in the other sections. Hosted by Terry Duncan.
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Re: The Crowe Memorandum

#31

Post by Terry Duncan » 02 Apr 2012, 15:18

To avoid war with the Triple Entente in which Germany's chances of victory were slim and getting slimmer.
So selecting a policy (via Austria) of deliberate confrontation with Russia was the worst possible way to go about such a thing, though Moltke and others clearly advocated a policy of seeking war 'while there is still a chance of passing the test' and not avoidance of war.
The Crowe memorandum submitted in 1907 was a general philosophical view of how Germany and her actions should be regarded by Great Britain. (This was the "misreading" of German intentions referred to by Niall Ferguson.)
Ferguson is not entirely correct. Germany did not want war with the full Triple Entente, but was perfectly happy to risk and accept war with the Franco-Russian 2/3 of it. Events in 1914 seem to have proven that Crowe was correct, as even with hindsight Ferguson's version is not without holes.

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Re: The Crowe Memorandum

#32

Post by peterhof » 04 Apr 2012, 19:49

Terry Duncan wrote:Ferguson is not entirely correct. Germany did not want war with the full Triple Entente, but was perfectly happy to risk and accept war with the Franco-Russian 2/3 of it. Events in 1914 seem to have proven that Crowe was correct, as even with hindsight Ferguson's version is not without holes.
The most charitable description of Crowe would be that he was "not entirely correct" or "not without holes."

German motives are proven beyond doubt by her 180-degree change of attitude brought about by Russian mobilization measures. This is fully supported by Bethmann's urgent warning telegrams to Vienna - part and parcel of the historical record.

Similarly, Triple Entente motives are proven by France's relentless, unflagging support and encouragement of Russia to the very end, and Grey's deafening silence, even in the face of impending war - also part and parcel of the historical record.
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Re: The Crowe Memorandum

#33

Post by glenn239 » 04 Apr 2012, 22:07

Marschall seems to have wanted something more substantial than a statement in Parliament which Grey pointed out 'might be said at any time'. The 'monologue' Marschall had in mind seems to have been a written statement hence his use of the phrase "litera scripta manet" (the written letter endures) to Grey. As far as I am aware, Marschall offered nothing in exchange for such a declaration so it seems to have been a particularly one-sided suggestion particularly as the original intention in March had been that such a statement would be part of a quid pro quo arrangement over naval matters.

... can't see how Grey can be at fault for declining to basically 'do something for nothing' –
I see you’re right that Marschall wanted a formula, not a statement. But whether Grey was or was not at fault isn’t the point we were discussing. The point is that Massie’s book does not cover the fact that Grey retracted his previous offer to reach a political formula. Massie’s book would have the reader believe the Germans had rejected a formula along Grey’s original lines when in fact it was the British that rejected it,

“I said this would be true of a reported speech. We did not pursue the subject further. Of course, what Marschall said is quite true. An exchange of writing does mean more than a speech in parliament. But it is precisely because it does mean more that it might give rise to suspicion. So I hope we shall go on with the Portugese colony business rather than with the discussion of the possibility of a formula.” (BD no 593, 4 July 1912).

Was Grey then making a false offer to the Germans in March 1912? I would argue no, he offered the formula in good faith and would have carried through independent of meddling from higher ups,

“But I must confess I am becoming more and more doubtful as to the wisdom of prolonging these discussions with Germany about a formula. Nothing I believe will meet her purpose which falls short of a promise of neutrality” – Asquith to Grey, April 10th.

This in apparent reaction to the intervention of the French, which I would add, seems to have occurred under mysterious circumstances. (Asquith giving directions for Grey being almost unheard of in the British Documents. Curious how he intervened to scuttle what was a promising continuation to talks. Had Marschall and Grey continued, history might have been different)

Earlier Terry had suggested the formula was linked to a naval agreement. Massie may or may not have thought this was true in Dreadnought, but it was in fact not so,

“I said that I could understand that there would be disappointment if we were to say that the carrying out of the Novelle would put an end to negotiations and to better relations. But we were not saying this, and we hoped that the formula which we had suggested might be considered in connection with the discussion of territorial arrangements, even if it was not effective in preventing the increase of naval expenditure”Grey to Mitternich, BD 557. (Note that Grey makes this statement prior to being shut down by Asquith. It is probably this conversational record which Marschall saw and picked up on.)

On an unrelated note concerning an unrelated issue. Previously I had thought that Grey vouchsafed Poincare’s argument for the need to violate Belgian neutrality. But in re-reading the BD (it’s around these ones) it is clear that he was merely repeating the French argument as part of his record of the conversation, and not making it his own.
The Germans admitted in March 1912 that what they effectively wanted was 'absolute neutrality...The Chancellor telegraphed to Metterinch on 18 March, rejecting the new formula as ‘worthless to our purpose' or, as Metternich put it to Grey, ‘so elastic as to be valueless’. And when Grey said that what the Chancellor wanted now was a declaration of absolute neutrality, the Ambassador agreed that this was in effect the case.
That is an accurate description of what occurred around the 18th, but the Germans then confirmed later on 26 March that they wanted to go ahead with their previously submitted formula, which was for conditional (and not absolute) neutrality. Massie did not inform the reader of this – as incredible as it sounds, the German formula was omitted altogether.

Now, did Hinley mention anything of the German conditional neutrality proposal, or did he too leave it off? Does he list the articles if he does mention it?

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Re: The Crowe Memorandum

#34

Post by Terry Duncan » 04 Apr 2012, 22:14

German motives are proven beyond doubt by her 180-degree change of attitude brought about by Russian mobilization measures. This is fully supported by Bethmann's urgent warning telegrams to Vienna - part and parcel of the historical record.
As is Bethmann's comment about how it was important to make it appear Russia was in the wrong when sending these messages to Vienna. It would appear that Bethmann himself held little hope that Berchtold would change his policy for war, as as we know, Bethmann had no intention of withholding support from Austria his threats were hollow at best.
The most charitable description of Crowe would be that he was "not entirely correct" or "not without holes."
Crowe could not have written with hindsight or with knowledge of German motives, so he can at least be forgiven for not being absolutely correct in everything he wrote. However, what he did write was an accurate reflection of exactly how German policy was perceived at the time (and he was far from alone in holding these impressions) and one that proved all too real in 1914.

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Re: The Crowe Memorandum

#35

Post by peterhof » 04 Apr 2012, 22:54

The most accurate and complete depiction of what happened in the summer of 1914 is the August speech to the Reichstag delivered by Bethmann-Hollweg: Franco-Russian territorial ambitions pulled by the British locomotive of "misreading" [Crowe Memorandum] of German intentions. This lethal train of circumstances was put on the final track to war at 6:00 P.M., on July 30th, 1914. The victors may write history, but it is the vanquished who have it right.
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Re: The Crowe Memorandum

#36

Post by Terry Duncan » 04 Apr 2012, 23:33

pulled by the British locomotive of "misreading" [Crowe Memorandum] of German intentions.
You have yet to establish a single area where Crowe did misread anything in his 1907 memorandum, it would be interesting to see you do so rather than simply return to the same claims about events in 1914. Favedave has already asked you to show where Crowe did get it wrong, so maybe you will now do so.

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Re: The Crowe Memorandum

#37

Post by favedave » 05 Apr 2012, 00:38

It would seem actions speak louder and less confusingly than words. The Crowe Memorandum of 1907 was written and delivered at a time when Germany's naval building program was going full tilt. This building program, which began in 1901 just after the Kaiser's open support of the Boors, was never seen as anything but a direct threat by the Kaiser and Tirpitz to the hedgemony of the Royal Navy in the North Sea, Britain's home waters. Given the soured relations between Germany and Britain by the Kaiser's actions, it is likely Britain would have rejected German overtures even if they were accomplied by a quid pro quo, which they weren't. To finally put a stop to the ruiniously expensive Naval Race in 1912, the Haldane mission was sent to Germany. Since nobody but Haldane believed it would be successful, the deployment of the Royal Navy worldwide was significantly altered to bring all of the latest types to home waters to give the home fleet a two-to-one advantage in capital ships against Germany's Baltic-bound High Seas Fleet. The Haldane Mission was regarded as a failure, primarily due to the Kaiser and Tirpitz treatment of Haldane himself, who according to Massie was the Cabinet's true Germanophile prior to this trip.

Rather than diplomacy, it was the redeployment of the Royal Navy which immediately assured Britain's naval superiority in the North Sea. This was the moment in 1912 when the primary responsibility for the protection of the British Empire's shipping lanes and merchant fleet was passed to the navies of Japan, the United States and France. The agreement with France to guard British interests in the Med is why Grey could assure the French that if the HSF sortied into the English Channel Britain would go to war with Germany.


The 1907 Crowe Memorandum was also written after the British Army's chief of staff began taking his infamous summer excursions to France and Belgium to participate in joint staff rides and war planning. The 'enemy' in all these peacetime war games in which the mechanisms of mobilization and deployment of the BEF and French Army were exercised annually, was Germany. The GQG certainly could have deduced Germany's opening deployment and battle plan by looking at a map. But I doubt that they could have convinced the British Army's Chief of Staff to join in and devote nearly all of the small budget he had to landing most of Britain's all volunteer army on the French coast with a plan to move directly into Belgium, unless the Gran Quarters General were in possession of the Schlieffen Memo of 1905. Whether by deduction, or the handywork of spies, every action taken by the German Army from 1905 to August 1, 1914 confirmed that an attack through the Benelux, to the Channel and down to Paris was indeed the actual German plan of battle.

For Britain these are the only two salient facts.

I. Germany did its best to build a navy which could best the Royal Navy in its home waters.

2. Germany was preparing in every way to launch a war by going through neutral countries which they would continue to occupy and exploit after the war was over, just as they did in Alsace and Lorraine and Schleswig and Holstein.

Crowe's minute of the 25th of July, 1914 essentially called for all the preparations made to be set in motion immediately. Grey could not at this early point in the developing crisis do any such thing. The French President and Prime Minister were at sea. I recall no pleas from the Russian Imperial Court asking Britain for support or intervention. Nor could he, regardless of his own feelings, commit Britain to a war on the continent until British Interests were clearly in jeopardy. This did not become the case until Germany actually invaded Belgium, after ample warning by the British government not to.

It is hard to misread Germany's intentions, or more precisely the Kaiser's intentions from any perspective, including his own.

His intention was for Germany to become the dominent military and economic power in Europe (and by extension the world). Nor was he far from achieving this preeminent position for Germany during his reign. The quick war with decisive victories against France and Russia promised by his general staff would assure his legacy, if he acted boldly before those two "inevitable enemies" could equalize the fight and increase the prospect of a German defeat. It was now or never according to von Moltke.

This means Crowe was right. But that does not make Grey wrong in hoping against all odds and evidence that the Kaiser really preferred peace to achieving his personal goals, which he was assured daily he could. Had Grey adopted Crowe's position on the 25th, before Serbia's reply was known, (though he could not have legally done so without the support of Parliament) and categorically told Wilhelm the Royal Navy was going to sortie off Wilhelmshaven if he did not get Austria-Hungary and Serbia to a conference table, maybe Wilhelm would have backed off. Instead Grey was forced by circumstances over which he had no control to leave his allies, France and Russia wondering whether Britain would remain neutral, even in the face of Germany's long-predicted course of aggression. Grey suggested a conference like the one which settled the Balkan Wars eight months before. This was rejected by Austria-Hungary with Germany's support. There was no counter proposal from the Kaiser or the Austrian Emperor. There was also no time for Grey to come up with anything else other than "Let them have their way" which would have been acceptable to the Central Powers. The Kaiser then removed this option by declaring war on both Russia and France. Still, Grey did not have a way to get into the fight on behalf of the Entente Allies until the violation of Belgium.

Nowhere is the Crowe memorandum 1907 or the Minute of July 25th acted on, or official government policy.

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Re: The Crowe Memorandum

#38

Post by glenn239 » 05 Apr 2012, 21:42

Sorry Dave, I only skimmed your post, as it seemed a little rambling and inaccurate. One example practically at random. You state,
The Crowe Memorandum of 1907 was written and delivered at a time when Germany's naval building program was going full tilt. This building program, which began in 1901 just after the Kaiser's open support of the Boors, was never seen as anything but a direct threat by the Kaiser and Tirpitz to the hedgemony of the Royal Navy in the North Sea,
Here’s the memo.

http://tmh.floonet.net/pdf/eyre_crowe_memo.pdf

I’ve got no time to read it now – are you making a factual statement or are you pulling opinions from thin air? I skimmed the memo with – we’re talking seconds – with “fleet” as my search and found,

Nor is it for British Governments to oppose Germany’s building as large a fleet as she may
consider necessary or desirable for the defence of her national interests. It is the mark of an
independent State that it decides such matters for itself, free from any outside interference, and it
would ill become England with her large fleets to dictate to another State what is good for it in
matters of supreme national concern. Apart from the question of right and wrong, it may also be
urged that nothing would be more likely than any attempt at such dictation, to impel Germany to
persevere with her shipbuilding programmes. And also, it may be said in parenthesis, nothing is
more likely to produce in Germany the impression of the practical hopelessness of a never-ending succession of costly naval programmes than the conviction, based on ocular demonstration, that for every German ship England will inevitably lay down two, so maintaining the present, relative British preponderance.


This looks to be the exact opposite of what you just said. So, can you direct my attention in Crowe’ memo to what it is you are talking about?

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Re: The Crowe Memorandum

#39

Post by favedave » 06 Apr 2012, 00:44

Sorry to have been misread by you as being rambling and inaccurate. I am not pulling my facts from 'thin air'. However they are a distillate of sources (perhaps 300 or 400 authors on the subject of World War I over the last 50 years). Having taken time to reread all of Crowe's memo from 1907, (which you supplied, thank you.) I think a more careful reading on your part will make it clear he was stating his personal belief in this passage:

"Nor is it for British Governments to oppose Germany’s building as large a fleet as she may consider necessary or desirable for the defence of her national interests. It is the mark of an independent State that it decides such matters for itself, free from any outside interference, and it would ill become England with her large fleets to dictate to another State what is good for it in matters of supreme national concern. Apart from the question of right and wrong, it may also be urged that nothing would be more likely than any attempt at such dictation, to impel Germany to persevere with her shipbuilding programmes. And also, it may be said in parenthesis, nothing is more likely to produce in Germany the impression of the practical hopelessness of a never-ending succession of costly naval programmes than the conviction, based on ocular demonstration, that for every German ship England will inevitably lay down two, so maintaining the present, relative British preponderance."

Since you don't have time to read it yourself, I'll paraphrase what Crowe was rambling on about here.

"Britain should not tell the Germans how large a fleet to build since that would only drive the Kaiser and Tirpitz to want to build it all the more. A better approach would be to let them waste time, resources and money to out build the Royal Navy only to discover that the Royal Navy had built two capital ships for every one the German Navy had built."

This does not contradict what I said: "This building program, which began in 1901 just after the Kaiser's open support of the Boors, was never seen as anything but a direct threat by the Kaiser and Tirpitz to the hedgemony of the Royal Navy in the North Sea."

Perhaps to be clearer and less inaccurate I should have inserted 'insulting' between "direct" and "threat" in that statement.

1912's Haldane mission was due to the British Government's very real fear of bankrupting itself trying to keep ahead of the German building program by a margin of two to one, as Crowe coincidently suggested in his 1907 memo above. The redeployment of the Royal Navy that year to maintain this ratio in the North Sea was due to the failure of the Haldane Mission to get the Kaiser state he would curtail the building program. Fortunately, the German Army actually demanded the money that had been going to the Naval Programs in 1912, 1913 and 1914. As a result the German building program was seriously slowed and tension over the naval race eased considerably in the last two years before the war. So drastic was the German cut in building, Churchill believed that the Kaiser had capitulated and stated in early 1914 no naval issues remained between the two countries.

The rest of the memo (having waded through it as well) deals primarilly with the history, from Crowe's British point of view, of the relations between the four Major Powers as driven by German foreign policy, first under Bismarck and then under Wilhelm. Again the threat of war between Germany and Russia and France, as outlined in the 1905 Schlieffen Memo underlies every statement. Overall, Crowe is stating - like it or not , British Interests are better served by standing with France and Russia than Germany.

Or didn't you understand that either?

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Re: The Crowe Memorandum

#40

Post by Terry Duncan » 06 Apr 2012, 00:58

This looks to be the exact opposite of what you just said. So, can you direct my attention in Crowe’ memo to what it is you are talking about?
Maybe you need to read even the extract you did post somewhat more carefully, as Crowe is indicating that Britain must lay down two ships for each one Germany lays down, hardly something he would be advocating if Germany were perceived as friendly.
And also, it may be said in parenthesis, nothing is more likely to produce in Germany the impression of the practical hopelessness of a never-ending succession of costly naval programmes than the conviction, based on ocular demonstration, that for every German ship England will inevitably lay down two, so maintaining the present, relative British preponderance.
Obviously, the well documented naval race between the two states would tend to illustrate a degree of rivalry to anyone willing to look at it. As I have said numerous times, and as Crowe hints at here, Germany was free to build a fleet of any size she saw fit, but by the same token Britain was also free to consider Germany a hostile state and to therefore make agreements with other states with a common interest. There are a few relevent passages from the memo concerning the German attitude and policies;
And when shortly after the outbreak of the South African war, Germany threatened the most determined hostility unless England waived the exercise of one of the most ancient and most firmly-established belligerent rights of naval warfare, namely, the search and citation before a Prize Court of neutral mercantile vessels suspected of carrying contraband, England once more preferred an amicable arrangement under which her undoubted rights were practically waived, to embarking on a fresh quarrel with Germany. The spirit in which this more than conciliatory attitude, was appreciated at Berlin became clear when immediately afterwards the German Chancellor openly boasted in the Reichstag that he had compelled England by the display of German firmness to abandon her absolutely unjust claim to interference, with the unquestioned rights of neutrals, and when the Emperor subsequently appealed to his nation to hasten on the building of an overwhelming German fleet, since the want of superior naval strength alone had on this occasion prevented Germany from a still more drastic, vindication of Germany’s interests.
Crowe then goes on to document further problems with Germany;
As if none of these things had happened, fresh German demands in another field, accompanied by all the same manifestations of hostility, were again met though with perhaps increasing reluctance, by the old willingness to oblige. The action of Germany in China has long been distinctly unfriendly to England. In 1895 she tried to obtain from the Chinese Government a coaling station in the Chusan Islands, at the mouth of the Yang-tsze, without any previous communication with the British Government, whose preferential rights over the group, as established by Treaty, were of course well known. The manner in which Kiao-chau was obtained, however unjustifiable it may be considered by any recognized standard of political conduct, did not concern England more than the other Powers who professed in their Treaties to respect China’s integrity and independence. But Germany was not content with the seizure of the harbour, she also planned the absorption of the whole of the large and fertile province of Shantung. The concession of the privileged rights which she, wrung from the Chinese Government was obtained owing in no small degree to her official assurance that her claims had the support of England who, needless to say, had never been informed or consulted, and who was, of course, known to be absolutely opposed to stipulations by which, contrary to solemn British treaty rights, it was intended to close a valuable province to British trade and enterprise.

About this time Germany secretly approached Russia with a view to the conclusion of an Agreement, by which Germany would have also obtained the much desired foothold on the Yane-tsze, then considered to be practically a British preserve. These overtures being rejected, Germany wished at least to prevent England from obtaining what she herself had failed to secure. She proposed to the British Cabinet a selfdenying Agreement stipulating that neither Power should endeavour to obtain any territorial advantages in Chinese dominions, and that if any third Power attempted to do so both should take common action.

The British Government did not conceal their great reluctance, to this arrangement, rightly foreseeing that Germany would tacitly exempt from its operation her own designs on Shantung, and also any Russian aggression in Manchuria, whilst England would solemnly give up any chances she might have of establishing on a firm basis her well-won position on the Yang-tsze. That is, of course, exactly what subsequently did happen. There was no obvious reason why England should lend herself to this gratuitous tying of her own hands. No counter-advantage was offered or even suggested, and the British taste for these one-sided transactions had not been, stimulated by past experience. Nevertheless, the policy of conciliating Germany by meeting her expressed wishes once more triumphed, and the Agreement was signed with the foreseen consequences : Russian aggression in Manchuria was declared to be altogether outside the scope of the stipulations of what the German Chancellor took care to style the “Yang-tsze” Agreement, as if its terms had referred specially to that restricted area of China, and the German designs on Shantung continue to this day to be tenaciously pursued.
The full passage where Crowe refers to German policy as blackmail;
If, merely by way of analogy and illustration, a comparison not intended to be either literally exact or disrespectful be permitted, the action of Germany towards this country since 1890 might be likened not inappropriately to that of a professional blackmailer, whose extortions are wrung from his victims by the threat of some vague and dreadful consequences in case of a refusal. To give way to, the blackmailer’s menaces enriches him, but it has long been proved by uniform experience that, although this may secure for the victim temporary peace, it is certain to lead to renewed molestation and higher demands after ever-shortening periods of amicable forbearance. The blackmailer’s trade is generally ruined by the first resolute stand made against his exactions and the determination rather to face all risks of a possibly disagreeable situation than to continue in the path of endless concessions. But, failing such determination, it is more than probable that the relations between the two parties will grow steadily worse.

Crowe then looks at the future for German policy;
A German maritime supremacy must be acknowledged to be incompatible with the existence of the British Empire, and even if that Empire disappeared, the union of the greatest military with the greatest naval Power in one State would compel the world to combine for the riddance of such an incubus. The acquisition of colonies fit for German settlement in South America cannot be reconciled with the Monroe doctrine, which is a fundamental principle of the political faith of the United States. The creation of a German India in Asia Minor must in the end stand or fall with either a German command of the sea or a German conquest of Constantinople and the countries intervening between Germany’s present south-eastern frontiers and the Bosphorus. Whilst each of these grandiose schemes seems incapable of fulfilment under anything like the present conditions of the world, it looks as if Germany were playing with them all together simultaneously, and thereby Wilfully concentrating in her own path all the obstacles and oppositions of a world set at defiance. That she should do this helps to prove how little of logical and consistent design and of unrelenting purpose lies behind the impetuous mobility, the bewildering surprises, and the heedless disregard of the susceptibilities of other people that have been so characteristic of recent manifestations of German policy.

If it be considered necessary to formulate and accept a theory that will fit all the ascertained facts of German foreign policy, the choice must lie between the two hypotheses here presented :

Either Germany is definitely aiming at a general political hegemony and maritime ascendency, threatening the independence of her neighbours and ultimately the existence of England;

Or Germany, free from any such clear-cut ambition, and thinking for the present merely of using her legitimate position and influence as one of the leading Powers in the council of nations, is seeking to promote her foreign commerce, spread the benefits of German culture, extend the scope of her national energies, and create fresh German interests all over the world wherever and whenever a peaceful opportunity offers, leaving it to an uncertain future to decide whether the occurrence of great changes in the world may not some day assign to Germany a larger share of direct political action over regions not now a part of her dominions, without that violation of the established rights of other countries which would be involved in any such action under existing political conditions.

In either case Germany would clearly be wise to build as powerful a navy as she can afford.

The above alternatives seem to exhaust the possibilities of explaining the given facts. The choice offered is a narrow one, nor easy to make with any close approach to certainty. It will, however, be seen, on reflection, that there is no actual necessity for a British Government to determine definitely which of the two theories of German policy it will’ accept. For it is clear that the second scheme (of semi-independent evolution, not entirely unaided by statecraft) may at any stage merge into the first, or conscious, design scheme. Moreover, if ever the evolution scheme should come to be realized, the position thereby accruing to Germany would obviously constitute as formidable a menace to the rest of the world as would be presented by any deliberate conquest of a similar position by “malice aforethought.”
Crowe clearly thinks Germany constitutes a potential threat to Britain, therefore his build to a ratio of 2 -1 against Germany, and also notes the following, although it is unlikely to appeal to conspiracy theorists;
So long as England remains faithful to the general principle of the preservation of the balance of power, her interests would not be served by Germany being reduced to the rank of a weak Power, as this might easily lead to a Franco-Russian predominance equally, if not more, formidable to the British Empire. There are no existing German rights, territorial or other, which this country could wish to see diminished. Therefore, so long as Germany’s action does not overstep the line of legitimate protection of existing rights she can always count upon the sympathy and good-will and even the moral support, of England.
This passage about how Britain should deal with Germany and why is important when considering the blackmail charge;
There is no suggestion more untrue or more unjust than that England has on any recent occasion shown, or is likely to show in future, a parti pris against Germany or German proposals as such, or displayed any unfairness in dealing strictly on their own merits with any question having a bearing on her relations with Germany. This accusation has been freely made. It is the stock-in-trade of all the inspired tirades against the British Government which emanate directly or indirectly from the Berlin Press Bureau. But no one has ever been able to bring forward a title of evidence in its support that will bear examination. The fact, of course, is that, as Mr. Balfour felt impelled to remark to the German. Ambassador on a certain occasion, German communications to the British Government have not generally been of a very agreeable character, and, unless that character is a good deal modified, it is more than likely that such communications will in future receive unpalatable answers. For there is one road which, if past experience is any guide to the future, will most certainly not lead to any permanent improvement of relations with any Power, least of all Germany, and which must therefore be abandoned: that is the road paved with graceful British concessions—concessions made without any conviction either of their justice or of their being set off by equivalent counter-services. The vain hopes that in this manner Germany can be “conciliated” and made more friendly must be definitely given up. It may be that such hopes are still honestly cherished by irresponsible people, ignorant, perhaps necessarily ignorant, of the history of Anglo-German relations during the last twenty years, which cannot be better described than as the history of a systematic policy of gratuitous concessions, a policy which has led to the highly disappointing result disclosed by the almost perpetual state of tension existing between the two countries. Men in responsible positions, whose business it is to inform themselves and to see things as they really are, cannot conscientiously retain any illusions on this subject.

Here, again, however, it would be wrong to suppose that any discrimination is intended to Germany’s disadvantage. On the contrary, the same rule will naturally impose itself in the case of all other Powers. It may, indeed, be useful to cast back a glance on British relations with France before and after 1898. A reference to the official records will show that ever since 1882 England had met a growing number of French demands and infringements of British rights in the same spirit of ready accommodation which inspired her dealings with Germany. The not unnatural result was that every successive French Government embarked on a policy of “squeezing” England, until the crisis came in the year of Fashoda, when the stake at issue was the maintenance of the British position on the Upper Nile. The French Minister for Foreign Affairs of that day argued, like his predecessors, that England’s apparent opposition was only half-hearted, and would collapse before the persistent threat of French displeasure. Nothing would persuade him that England could in a question of this kind assume an attitude of unbending resistance. It was this erroneous impression, justified in the eyes of the French Cabinet by their deductions from British political practice, that brought the two countries to the verge of war. When the Fashoda chapter had ended with the just discomfiture of France, she remained for a time very sullen, and the enemies of England rejoiced, because they believed that an impassable gulf had now been fixed between the two nations. As a matter of fact, the events at Fashoda proved to be the opening of a new chapter of Anglo-French relations. These, after remaining for some years rather formal, have not since been disturbed by any disagreeable incidents. France behaved more correctly and seemed less suspicious and inconsiderate than had been her wont, and no fresh obstacle arose in the way which ultimately led to the Agreement of 1904.

Although Germany has not been exposed to such a rebuff as France encountered in 1898, the events connected with the Algeciras Conference appear to have had on the German Government the effect of an unexpected revelation, clearly showing indications of a new spirit in which England proposes to regulate her own conduct towards France on the one hand and to Germany on the other. That the result was a very serious disappointment to Germany has been made abundantly manifest by the turmoil which the signature of the Algeciras Act has created in the country, the official, semi-official, and unofficial classes vying with each other in giving expression to their astonished discontent. The time which has since elapsed has, no, doubt, been short. But during that time, it may be observed that our relations with Germany, if not exactly cordial, have at least been practically free from all symptoms of direct friction, and there is an impression that Germany will think twice before she now gives rise to any fresh disagreement. In this attitude she will be encouraged if she meets on England’s part with unvarying courtesy and consideration in all matters of common concern, but also with a prompt and firm refusal to enter into any one-sided bargains or arrangements, and the most unbending determination to uphold British rights and interests in every part of the globe. There will be no surer or quicker way to win the respect of the German Government and of the German nation.
There passages should at least put an end to the so far unsupported claims that Crowe was somehow wrong or writing with an undue bias, although as that claim is little better than a simple statement 'Crowe was wrong' so far, it would appear fairly evident Crowe was mostly correct.

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Re: The Crowe Memorandum

#41

Post by peterhof » 06 Apr 2012, 06:18

Terry Duncan wrote:There passages should at least put an end to the so far unsupported claims that Crowe was somehow wrong or writing with an undue bias, although as that claim is little better than a simple statement 'Crowe was wrong' so far, it would appear fairly evident Crowe was mostly correct.
"it would appear fairly evident Crowe was mostly correct." Talk about "unsupported!" Perhaps you can tell us why you chose to cut-and-paste lengthy portions when Glenn has already provided a useful link to the entire Crowe Memorandum (which should be read by all posters). This unending testament to the alleged venal nature of the horrible Germans as opposed to the limitless patience and endurance of the noble and forbearing Brits may be illustrated by Crowe's typical rendering of the dispute between Chamberlain and Bulow:

"A bare allusion must here suffice to the way in which the German Government at the time of the
South African war abetted the campaign of odious calumny carried on throughout the length and
breadth of Germany against the character of the British army, without any Government official once opening his mouth in contradiction; and this in the face of the faithful reports known to have been addressed to their Government by the German military officers attached to the British forces in the field. When the Reichstag proceeded in an
unprecedented fashion to impugn the conduct of a British Cabinet Minister, it was open to Prince
Bülow to enlighten his hearers as to the real facts, which had been grossly misrepresented. We
know that he was aware of the truth. We have the report of his long interview with a distinguished
and representative English gentleman, a fortnight after Mr. Chamberlain’s famous speech, which
was alleged to be the cause of offence, but of which a correct version revealing the groundlessness
of the accusation had been reported in a widely-read German paper. The Prince then stated that his
Government had at that moment no cause to Complain of anything in the attitude of British
Ministers, yet he descended a few days afterwards to expressing in the Reichstag his sympathy
with the violent German out-cry against Mr. Chamberlain’s supposed statement and the alleged
atrocities of the British army, which he knew to be based on falsehoods. Mr. Chamberlain’s
dignified reply led to extraordinarily persistent efforts on the Chancellor’s part to obtain from the
British Government an apology for the offence of resenting his dishonouring insinuations, and,
after all these efforts had failed, he nevertheless intimated to the Reichstag that the British
Government had given an explanation repudiating any intention on its part, to imply any insult to
Germany by what, had been said.
"


I'll leave it to the posters to judge Crowe's objectivity. In much the same vein, Crowe delivers a simplistic, almost child-like, history of Prussia, a highly prejudicial rendering of Bismarck's wars about Schleswig-Holstein, the Anglo-French Entente Cordiale, and the two Moroccan crises

Crowe might have spared us his tiresome rant (not to mention a World War) by grasping the basic European reality: German leaders considered themselves impaled on the horns of the Franco-Russian dilemma and were - no surprise - greatly worried about the prospect of England and her enormous fleet joining this explicitly anti-German alliance. This was very evident from the German Press and the Kaiser himself. Too clever by half, Crowe bloviates about everything in detail but misses the obvious. He does bother to deny - absurdly - that the Franco-Russian alliance was not aimed at Germany, and to assert - equally absurdly - that the 1904 Entente Cordiale had nothing to do with Germany. With equal justice, Crowe might just as well have addressed his ridiculous tirade to France before 1900, whilst Crowe's French equivalent could have addressed the same diatribe to England.

It may finally be noted that Crowe's harangue came from a high representative of a nation which had cobbled together the largest Empire in the history of the world, largely conquered and maintained by armed force.
We have met the enemy and he is us.

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Re: The Crowe Memorandum

#42

Post by Terry Duncan » 06 Apr 2012, 16:00

"it would appear fairly evident Crowe was mostly correct." Talk about "unsupported!"
So post some evidence to the contrary, not just your repeated assertion that Crowe was wrong. If that is all your case consists of I am perfectly happy to lock this post as having no further useful contributions.
Perhaps you can tell us why you chose to cut-and-paste lengthy portions when Glenn has already provided a useful link to the entire Crowe Memorandum (which should be read by all posters).
Many people do not follow links, links themselves vanish over time, and these extracts serve to illustrate the reasoning behind what Crowe wrote. Is your objection that my post allows others to see at a glance details not favourable to your case, or that the post is too long - if so I must inform you that there is no limit imposed on any poster providing they do not infringe copywrite.
This unending testament to the alleged venal nature of the horrible Germans as opposed to the limitless patience and endurance of the noble and forbearing Brits may be illustrated by Crowe's typical rendering of the dispute between Chamberlain and Bulow:
If you wish to dispute the matter with actual evidence that contradicts Crowe, please feel free to post it. What you cannot deny is that this is how German actions were perceived in Britain and the reasoning behind such an impression. You can try claiming that Germany was misunderstood, but so far you have offered nothing to show that this really was the case.
With equal justice, Crowe might just as well have addressed his ridiculous tirade to France before 1900, whilst Crowe's French equivalent could have addressed the same diatribe to England.
For once you get close to the truth. Maybe you need to consider what made Britain change from considering France as her most likely enemy on the continent to considering Germany now filled that role. What events took place between 1898 and 1902 that altered British opinion to that view?
It may finally be noted that Crowe's harangue came from a high representative of a nation which had cobbled together the largest Empire in the history of the world, largely conquered and maintained by armed force.
Empires are not maintained or obtained by timidity. Are you trying to suggest Britain should welcome a rival or look on and do nothing as a rival arose? Prussia too had created her own empire, though apparently this meets with your approval.

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Re: The Crowe Memorandum

#43

Post by favedave » 06 Apr 2012, 16:44

So, Peter,

I fully admit that Crowe's bias was that of a late 19th, early 20th century British Imperialist that has been the staple of British comedy for the last 100 years. C. Aubury Smith's character in "The Four Feathers" comes to mind. But to be fair the Kaiser's German bias, which was much more important because he was indisputeably in charge of Germany's military and diplomatic corps, was equal to Crowe's in every way.

However, Grey did not follow Crowe's suggestions in either the 1907 memo or the minute of July 25th. He was forced to leave his Entente Allies to make their decisions during the crucial 72 hours between the shelling of Belgrade and the invasion of Belgium on their own, with absolutely no assurance of British Intervention.

Clearly, the only way to maintain the peace of Europe was to get all parties to the conflict away from their general staffs and sitting at a conference table. This Grey put forward. But the Kaiser squashed that possibility by declaring war on Russia and France.

Here's an interesting "What if?", given Grey's diplomatic predicament: What if the Kaiser had acquiesced to the British ultimatum (and King Albert's request) and did not invade Belgium? Grey could not very well ask the Crown to declare war on Germany anyway. Such a move on the Kaiser's part would have also upset the French and Russian general staffs far more than it would his own. The French were absolutely unprepared to drive into Alsace and Lorraine unless Joffre was convinced the Germans were putting the bulk of their army into Belgium. Nor could they invade Belgium if the Germans had not. The Russians would have to worry that at least half of the German Army was massing on the Polish Border.

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Re: The Crowe Memorandum

#44

Post by peterhof » 06 Apr 2012, 20:04

favedave wrote: . . . Grey did not follow Crowe's suggestions in either the 1907 memo or the minute of July 25th.
Grey did exactly that. Grey was already in full accord with Crowe's opinion of Germany as demonstrated by his own statements. The Crowe minute of July 25th was adopted by the British Foreign Office. In The Origins of the World War, Vol 2, p 379, Fay tells us:

"The British Foreign Office took the stand expressed in a minute by Sir E. Crowe on July 25th:

'The moment has passed when it might have been possible to enlist French support in an effort to hold back Russia.
It is clear that France and Russia are decided to accept the challenge thrown out to them. What ever we may think of the merits of the Austrian charges against Serbia, France and Russia consider that these are the pretexts, and that the bigger cause of Triple Alliance versus Triple Entente is definitely engaged.
I think it would be impolitic, not to say dangerous, for England to attempt to controvert this opinion, or to endeavor to obscure the plain issue, by any representation at St. Petersburg and Paris . . .
Our interests are tied up with those of France and Russia in this struggle, which is not for the possession of Serbia, but one between Germany aiming at a political dictatorship in Europe and the Powers who desire to retain individual freedom
.'"
(B.D., 10)

This explains Grey's deafening silence. Please appreciate the full import of Crowe's words. He is here suggesting that a European war should not be prevented and that England should participate. Grey agreed. He realized that he might never again have such an opportunity to save his beloved England from "a danger greater than Napoleon."

Your "What If" ignores the fact that there was no chance of Germany fighting Russia without also fighting France - a fact appreciated by von Moltke though not the Kaiser. After departing St. Petersburg on July 23, 1914, Viviani informed the Russian Ambassador in Stockholm that "If it is a war for Russia, it will be, most certainly, a war for France also."
We have met the enemy and he is us.

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Re: The Crowe Memorandum

#45

Post by favedave » 06 Apr 2012, 20:40

" Your "What If" ignores the fact that there was no chance of Germany fighting Russia without also fighting France."

My "what if' does not even hint at Germany fighting Russia without France. What I suggest is that if the Kaiser had not invaded Belgium after declaring war on both France and Russia, Britain would have been forced to abandon the Entente and the French and Russian preparations for countering Germany would have been completely undone.

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