Schneider WWI guns

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Sturm78
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Re: Schneider WWI guns

Post by Sturm78 » 15 Nov 2013 10:34

Charlie wrote
The second image of the 155mm Schneider gun is a "Canon de 155 L modele 1877-1914 de Bange sur affut Schneider"

It's the barrel of an Mle 1877 De Bange gun on a Schneider carriage. About 120 of these guns were ordered and entered service in 1916
Hi Charlie.

The shield of the gun of my image is not the same that the 155mm Mle 1877-14. Perhaps a prototype ...
Also a 150mm SC 150 nº2 gun was offered to Spain in 1910 with a very similar shield


On the other hand, another howitzer from Schneider: 105mm Schneider OC nº5. Offered to Bulgaria and Romania but not adopted

Image from www.bulgarianartillery.it
Sturm78
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CharlieC
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Re: Schneider WWI guns

Post by CharlieC » 16 Nov 2013 00:32

"Les Canons de la Victoire 1914-1918 Tomb 1" identifies the 155mm Schneider in the image as one of the 1910 prototypes built as a proposal for a Spanish order. The shield, as you note, is different, but the 1877/1914 De Bange Schneider gun was very similar to this prototype. The shields on the Mle 1877/1914 gun seem to have been quite variable. I've seen images of an abbreviated shield only about 30cm above the barrel as well as a shield that looks like a German "schirmlafette". Schneider used to recycle designs endlessly so a failed order for Spanish guns became the Mle 1877/1914. Other examples were the 220mm howitzer which started out as a 228mm howitzer for the Russians, which wasn't produced, became the Mortier de 220 Mle 1915 Schneider and the 152mm M10 howitzer, produced by Putilov under license, became the Canon de 155 C Mle 1915.

Regards,

Charlie

ALVF
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Re: Schneider WWI guns

Post by ALVF » 16 Nov 2013 22:23

Hello,

This subject is complex because:
-many countries had purchased Schneider guns before the war.
-many Schneider guns in building in 1914 for countries all over the world were used during the Great War after requisition in 1914 and other guns in building were finished for use by France and other allied Armies.
For mountains guns, I read often in many books that the "canons de montagne puissants" were Schneider-Danglis model.It is true that colonel Danglis of greek Army was the inventor of the concept of the tube build in two parts but the appellation "canon de montagne Schneider-Danglis" is only reserved to greek guns and one letter of Mr Schneider in Schneider archives is quite clear on this subject.
The first "canon de montagne puissant" is built for Greece but many countries purchased these models in the 1906-1914 years and each country had his particular model with some minor changes.
I publish a rare photograph of the "canon de 75 mm MPC 2".It is a variety of the "canon de montagne puissant".This model is presented to "Grand-Duc Serge de Russie" the 15 april 1908 to Harfleur Schneider proving ground (near Le Havre).The Duke, artillery general in russian Army, (and a great friend of France) is coming from Paris by special train.He is seeing a demonstration of this gun and immediatly purchased it.An order to make a similar gun in 76,2 mm caliber (3 inch) is concluded with Schneider.Some months after, the 76,2 mm MPC 2bis is made and is the predecessor of the famous russian 76,2 mm M1909 mountain gun build on license Schneider in Putilov works for many years and still long time after the Grand-Duc Serge death in the horror of russian civil war.
img134.jpg
Yours sincerely,
Guy François.
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adolpheit
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Re: Schneider WWI guns

Post by adolpheit » 19 Nov 2013 17:49

This is a list of Schneider mountain guns from Journal of field artillery.

Marco
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adolpheit
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Re: Schneider WWI guns

Post by adolpheit » 19 Nov 2013 18:07

And now a list of Schneider guns bought by various countries at the beginning of 19th Century (from Revue d'Artillerie 59/1901-02).
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adolpheit
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Re: Schneider WWI guns

Post by adolpheit » 19 Nov 2013 18:22

Canon de montagne Schneider-Canet de 75mm, mod. 1898
Canon de campagne Schneider-Canet de 75mm, mod. 1898-1900
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adolpheit
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Re: Schneider WWI guns

Post by adolpheit » 19 Nov 2013 18:35

Obusier de campagne de 105mm Schneider-Canet sur affut à frein hydropneumatique
Obusier de campagne de 120mm Schneider-Canet sur affut à frein hydropneumatique
Obusier de campagne de 150mm Schneider-Canet sur affut à frein hydropneumatique
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adolpheit
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Re: Schneider WWI guns

Post by adolpheit » 19 Nov 2013 18:59

Obusier de 150mm Schneider-Canet sur affut-truc
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ltcolonel
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Re: Schneider WWI guns

Post by ltcolonel » 19 Nov 2013 23:59

Serbia never adopted mountain guns 75 mm MPD1 or MPC4. Serbia on 6st November 1906. signed a preliminary contract for procurement of 45 batteries of field guns 75mm PD6 and 9 battery of mountain guns 70 mm MD2. The final agreement concluded a few months later was extended with 2 horse batteries 75 mm PD6.

ALVF
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Re: Schneider WWI guns

Post by ALVF » 20 Nov 2013 09:29

Hello,

Some facts:

-the Table with list of mountain guns Schneider adopted by different powers is a translation of the table edited in "Revue d'Artillerie" dated june 1922 and is incomplete.

-some other points during the Great War:
-in september 1915 Schneider delivered to Montenegro a mixed mountain battery with four prototyps of 75mm "canons de montagne puissants" (all different but using the same munition).The battery, with an Schneider civil engineer, arrived at Cettigné but was lost during the german offensive in Serbia.The engineer escaped and writed a report.With this short-lived battery was the prototyp of the 75 mm MPE, foreseen for French colonial artillery before 1914!
-in 1915-1916, Schneider resumed the production of 6 batteries of 75mm MPC 5, commanded by the Peru before 1914.These 24 guns are finished in june and july 1916.They were foreseen also for Montenegro in 1915 but, when they were finished, they were send to the reconstituted Serbian Army, the first battery embarked in july 1916 at Marseille.
The Serbian Army received also 12 70 mm Krupp mountain guns.These guns were seized by French Army in 1912 to the Moroccan Army ("Armée Chérifienne") after the revolt of "troupes chérifiennes" in Fez in 1912.
Schneider also refurbished 21 Serbian 70 mm Schneider mountain guns rescued by French Navy after the retreat of Serbian Army and delivered 12 guns refurbished with the damaged or in bad condition parts from the 21 guns rescued.
Yours sincerely,
Guy François.

ltcolonel
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Re: Schneider WWI guns

Post by ltcolonel » 20 Nov 2013 16:10

On Saloniq front Serbian army not used old mountain gun 70 mm Schneider. In Serbian official documents from the autumn of 1916 we had 6 mountain gun battery 75mm Schneider Danglis but there states that are from the Greek contingent. At the same time Serbian army had 3 batteries of 70 mm Krupp mountain guns (Moroccan Army guns) and 18 batteries old 80 mm De Bange mountain guns. De Bange batteries had 6 guns others 4 guns. By the spring of 1917 all of these guns were replaced with 65 mm M 06 mountain guns.
In Serbia when we talk about the procurement of weapons for the Serbian army we refer only the period until the end of 1915 because by that time the Serbs themselves were deciding what to purchase then they had what the French gave them no matter whether they want to or not. Most of the weapons obtained in 1916 and later became the property of the Serbian only from 1919 - 1921 (in that time Kingdom Serbian, Croat and Slovenian) and then mainly because the French government is worried that the Serbian army to be completely armed with arms seized from the Austro-Hungarian army. That's when all the French arms practically given away.

ltcolonel
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Re: Schneider WWI guns

Post by ltcolonel » 20 Nov 2013 16:33

In April 1919th Serbian army had (in good condition) around 800 field guns 8 cm M 5/8 and M14, 150 mountain guns 75 mm M15, 600 howitzer 10 cm M 14 and M 16, 250 field guns 75 mm M 04 Krupp, few dozens heavy howitzer 15 cm Skoda and only 350 french guns and howitzer. In that time around 75% French guns and howitzers were French property. All French howitzer in Serbian property were old 12 cm Baquet howitzer and ex Bulgarian howitzer 12 cm Schneider.

ALVF
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Re: Schneider WWI guns

Post by ALVF » 20 Nov 2013 19:00

Hello,

In the following archives:
-Archives du Service Historique de la Défense (Vincennes).
-Archives de la Société Schneider (Le Creusot).
-Archives parlementaires du Sénat (Paris).
The sending to Serbia is indicated for:
-3 batteries of 70 mm Krupp mountain guns (Moroccan guns seized by French Army in 1912).
-6 batteries of 75 mm MPC 5 Schneider mountain guns (from Peruvian pre-war order).
-3 batteries of refurbished 70 mm Serbian Schneider mountain guns rescued.
These archives are quite precise and include the name of merchant ships in which the guns are transported and none was sunk by german submarines!
Yours sincerely,
Guy François.

ltcolonel
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Re: Schneider WWI guns

Post by ltcolonel » 21 Nov 2013 01:17

Dear Guy,
Krupp mountain guns are not the problem - yours and my sources are matched. 3 batteries 70 mm Schneider mountain guns also not disputed - they are supplied Serbia but were not included in the armament. 4 batteries of field guns 75mm Schneider M 7 (or M7A) Serbs were transported to Corfu but even these guns did not included in the armament. Reason is the standardization of ammunition. Field guns in Thessaloniki in Serbian Army from the beginning were 75 mm M 12 Schneider, which used the same ammunition as the 75mm M97. By the time they arrived in Thessaloniki mountain guns 70 mm Schneider has already started re-armament on mountain guns 65 mm M 06 and old Serbian guns never entered the unit. As far as 75 mm mountain guns MPC5 I think happened next. Serbia in 1914 and in 1915. has received 5 or 6 batteries of cannons aimed France to Greece. France is guaranteed Greece that the battery be replaced with guns of the contingent intended for another country (the document does not say which). I think the 75 mm cannon MPC5 destined for Greece to replace the guns supplied Serbia, but later decided to instead Greece deliver to Serbia like 75 mm Shneider Danglis. As far as I know these guns were eventually handed over to Greece by the arrival of cannons 65 mm M 06 in the Serbian army.
Yours sincerely,
Nebojša Đokić
PS Sorry for my English

ALVF
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Re: Schneider WWI guns

Post by ALVF » 21 Nov 2013 08:14

Hello,

The deliver of greek 75 mm Schneider mountain guns to Serbia in 1914-1915 is an other point.It is less documented in french archives but I have read some of them on this subject.
The relations between France and Greece are very difficult in 1914-1916 years, because the policy of the king of Greece is pro-german.
Greece wants that Schneider guns in building in 1914 are to be delivered quickly to Greece but France's Ministry of war prohibits the export of these guns to Greece.The greek officers in Schneider works (for the receipt of the guns) leave France and the greek guns are requisitionned.
In 1917, Mr Venizelos takes the government and France and Greece relations are good. Then, the General Danglis is a pro-Venizelos officer and, as far as 1918, the French Général Nollet (in charge of the good state of the Artillery) orders to Schneider some optical parts for 75 mm "Schneider-Danglis" mountain guns used by Serbian Army.
I look after the number of greek guns delivered to Serbia in 1914-1915 years in my notes.
Yours sincerely,
Guy François.
P.S: my english writing is equally poor!

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