Passchendaele: A New History (Lloyd, N.) reviews?

[Attrition]

Passchendaele: A New History (2017), Nick Lloyd

Has anyone seen it yet?

[The Ibis]

Its not going to be released over here for another few weeks. I have it on pre-order. His last book, discussing the so-called 100 Days, was fine - not much new information but a good introduction for those interested in the subject. My understanding is that this goes into greater depth.

[Latze]

Amazon says: "But, as Nick Lloyd shows, notably through previously unexamined German documents, it put the Allies nearer to a major turning point in the war than we have ever imagined."
What documents can these be? Or is that to mean 'previously unexamined' by British historians?

[Sheldrake]

is the "major turning point" the attack on 4th October which left a big hole in the German lines, un-exploited by the BEF? If so nothing new to see. Jack Sheldon published the German side of the story in detail about ten years ago. Prior and Wilson also covered this. You can walk the route of the successful assault by the Australians that day and the evidence is on the ground in the form of formation memorials to British and Australian troops. At the time, no one knew how close the Germans were to losing on that day.

Not too different to the situation on 31 October and 11 November 1914 with the roles reversed. Converting a break in to a break out was very difficult in the First Great war

IOts not new,. its just the knee jerk reaction to 3rd Ypres and Passchendaele Ridge

[Attrition]

In late September, the British war machine got into gear and didn't skid on mud; the 4th Army was defeated three times and could do no more than limit the damage. Had the rains not returned it's difficult to imagine circumstances where the British didn't reach Passchendaele ridge with time left in the season to begin the second phase of the Flanders offensive. I expect that he adds detail to the preparations for a big retirement contemplated by Rupprecht in early October.

PS were there any breakthroughs in the Great War? I don't think so.

Sheldon's book, while welcome, was mostly a compendium of first-hand accounts with some quotations from Kuhl and from Rupprecht's diaries. It was a fine book on those terms but left the operational and strategic context mostly unexplored. His recent Fighting the Somme: German Challenges, Dilemmas and Solutions (2017) has no 3rd Ypres counterpart. Prior and Wilson's book flattered to deceive and looks less and less adequate each time I delve. Sadly, Der Weltkrieg is as perfunctory as most English-language works (at least this means you can translate it fairly quickly). I hope the book is worth the bother because I want it for the Wiki articles before 31 July. There's one more article to finish and then I can start again, copy-editing the lot.

[The Ibis]

PS were there any breakthroughs in the Great War? I don't think so.

It depends on how you define a breakthroughm I suppose. If you're looking for something resembling France 1940, i.e., an offensive that leads in a semi-straight but relatively uninterrupted line to the end of a war (or a phase of a war), then no. But if breakthrough can be defined as something resembling Bagration, Lvov-Sandomierz, or even Cobra, then you can find examples in the Great War: Caporetto, Lutsk and Gorlice–Tarnow. Each of the Great War offensives was eventually contained and/or ran out of steam, but then so were Bagration, Lvov-Sandomierz and Cobra. The WWII offensives went further thanks to the interwar advances in internal combustion engines.

[The Ibis]

ps:
What did you think of Sheldon's new Somme book?

[Attrition]

Much closer to what I'd wanted from his first book but I would have preferred more facts and figures from behind the front line, such as the arrangements for delivery of reinforcements, ammunition and engineer stores and the effect this had on the German defence. A small cavil considering.

I think that there must be as many definitions of breakthrough as there are for "decisive" but for me it describes circumstances when the attacker gains freedom of manoeuvre, at least for a time. A methodical retirement by the defeated army or a few hours when neither side can manoeuvre doesn't count.

[Attrition]

Oh dear, it's arrived and he's fallen at the first hurdle, despite noticing that the red line for 31 July was notional. He's called the plan a "5,000 yard leap. (p 76) He also misses the reinforcement of II Corps THE DAY BEFORE Haig's decision to let the plan stand.(p 79)

No wonder military historians are sniffed at for stupidity. Perhaps it will get better but FFS! it's been 69 years since this canard flew.

[Attrition]

Hmmm, can I have my money back? It's another rehash of secondary and tertiary sources with some local German colour thrown in. Are writers constrained by commercial publishers, who don't want their stable of books on a subject being made obsolete by scholarship?

[The Ibis]

That's terribly disappointing. Thanks for the heads up.

[Attrition]

It cost money and I'm struggling to find a way to get my money's worth. An Amazon reviewer thought the opposite so my judgement isn't definitive but it looks to me like he's missed a succession of open goals. I'd put it on a par with Beevor's farrago about Normandy.

[The Ibis]

I just read the review, which suggested there is nothing new or earthshattering in the book. Between that and your review, I don't feel any urgency to purchase the volume. I'll wait until a used copy becomes available for a low (i.e. rock-bottom) price.

[Attrition]

I commented on Clayton's review on Amazon and it wouldn't let me add one of my own so I had to add a postscript instead. For all its wrong-headedness, I would recommend Prior and Wilson instead.

[The Ibis]

You want wrong-headedness? Check out Betrayal at Little Gibralter. I'm really hoping that the history improves once the author gets past the introductory stuff since I'm finding that he repeats one myth after another. I imagine I will have more luck with Fax's new book.