"Lost Battalion" of US 77th Liberty Division

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South
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"Lost Battalion" of US 77th Liberty Division

#1

Post by South » 08 Oct 2018, 08:26

https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/ ... 2ff0272434


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Sheldrake
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Re: "Lost Battalion" of US 77th Liberty Division

#2

Post by Sheldrake » 08 Oct 2018, 13:04

Not a battalion and not "lost"
;)


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Re: "Lost Battalion" of US 77th Liberty Division

#3

Post by Plain Old Dave » 08 Oct 2018, 13:06

Is it impossible for this Forum to just enjoy a good, inspirational story about people overcoming tremendous odds?

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Re: "Lost Battalion" of US 77th Liberty Division

#4

Post by Cult Icon » 08 Oct 2018, 14:53

There was also a made-for tv film "Lost Battalion" that was decent despite the sloppy shaky cam. The whole thing is hosted on youtube..

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Re: "Lost Battalion" of US 77th Liberty Division

#5

Post by Sheldrake » 08 Oct 2018, 20:34

Plain Old Dave wrote:
08 Oct 2018, 13:06
Is it impossible for this Forum to just enjoy a good, inspirational story about people overcoming tremendous odds?
Dave,

As the name suggests this is a forum for exchanging information about AXIS HISTORY. Its about informed debate and a place to find insights and nuggets of specialist research. If you want to push narrow superficial and flawed chauvinist American view of military history post among the like minded.

I have been reading the account by Douglas V. Mastriano of York's action in Thunder in the Argonne. Sure, York is rightly seen as a role model for American soldiers. A reformed sinner who became a hero through self control and overcame his christian qualms about killing Germans. But when looked at from both sides of the battle, York was a very lucky man who faced a co-operative enemy. Lt Vollmer who surrendered his men in order to try to save the life of a wounded fellow officer against a background of imminent national defeat. If York had tried his stunt in earlier in the war against an enemy with a keener will to win it is likely that he would not have come out of the action alive or with many prisoners.

Something similar is probably true of WO2 SAtan Hollis, the only Briton to be awarded the VC for his actions on D Day. Single handed he stormed two command and observation bunkers and a trench network on Gold beach captured some 30-40 Germans. These chaps had manned half completed fortifications which, over the previous 90 minutes had been subject to bombing by four engined bombers and then by a cruiser.

There is perhaps too much of an obsession with the men awarded the highest decorations. In order to win an award you had to be noticed and someone senior needed to witness the deed. It helped if the action was successful and if there weren't too many other people doing something similar on the same day. There were limits to the number of any level of award. No matter how good the unit they could not be allowed to all win the CMOH. There is an anecdote about an Australian unit drawing lots for medals as the CO did not want to chose between his equally brave men.

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Re: "Lost Battalion" of US 77th Liberty Division

#6

Post by Plain Old Dave » 08 Oct 2018, 23:33

A co-operative enemy that slaughtered upwards of 25, 000 Doughboys and Marines?

Interesting use of the vernacular.

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Re: "Lost Battalion" of US 77th Liberty Division

#7

Post by Terry Duncan » 09 Oct 2018, 00:17

I think he meant all too willing to surrender because they knew the war was coming to a close and did not want to become one of those to die in the closing stages. German troops surrended in some quantity at this point all along the line.

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Re: "Lost Battalion" of US 77th Liberty Division

#8

Post by Plain Old Dave » 09 Oct 2018, 01:35

That's not til later. Strenuous resistance was the order of the day til later in October.

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Re: "Lost Battalion" of US 77th Liberty Division

#9

Post by MarkN » 09 Oct 2018, 10:18

Plain Old Dave wrote:
08 Oct 2018, 23:33
A co-operative enemy that slaughtered upwards of 25, 000 Doughboys and Marines?

Interesting use of the vernacular.
Indeed. A very interesting use of the vernacular. "Slaughtered" seems to give off the impression that they didn't put up much of a fight!

However, perhaps it's worth repeating wot sum1 rited erlyer
Plain Old Dave wrote:
07 Oct 2018, 04:34
This forum's obsession with friendly casualty rates is morbid . The point of war isn't to die for one's country.

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Re: "Lost Battalion" of US 77th Liberty Division

#10

Post by Sheldrake » 09 Oct 2018, 10:51

Plain Old Dave wrote:
09 Oct 2018, 01:35
That's not til later. Strenuous resistance was the order of the day til later in October.
Dave.

Your posts demonstrate the lack of depth in your knowledge about the events of 1918. I can't be bothered to explain what is wrong with your statement until I gain the impression that I am not wasting my time.

Try reading some of the references that have been suggested for you. You might learn something. At least have the courtesy to give then impression that you are engaging in informed debate. IIRC this has been suggested to you already. Otherwise you will create the impression that you are merely a a time wasting troll best ignored

Douglas V. Mastriano's Thunder in the Argonne contains a thought provoking well sourced account and recommended reading for NATO officers studying the battle.

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Re: "Lost Battalion" of US 77th Liberty Division

#11

Post by Plain Old Dave » 14 Oct 2018, 19:45

https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4752809/lost-battalion

Contemporary movie. Major Whittlesey is reported to have taken his life shortly after watching this. All reports indicate he suffered from PTSD, said at the Unknown Soldier ceremony that he shouldn't have gone, and that he was hearing his wounded troops in the Argonne.

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Re: "Lost Battalion" of US 77th Liberty Division

#12

Post by AdolfDettmer » 10 Nov 2018, 09:58

Sheldrake wrote:
08 Oct 2018, 20:34
Plain Old Dave wrote:
08 Oct 2018, 13:06
Is it impossible for this Forum to just enjoy a good, inspirational story about people overcoming tremendous odds?
Dave,

As the name suggests this is a forum for exchanging information about AXIS HISTORY. Its about informed debate and a place to find insights and nuggets of specialist research. If you want to push narrow superficial and flawed chauvinist American view of military history post among the like minded.

I have been reading the account by Douglas V. Mastriano of York's action in Thunder in the Argonne. Sure, York is rightly seen as a role model for American soldiers. A reformed sinner who became a hero through self control and overcame his christian qualms about killing Germans. But when looked at from both sides of the battle, York was a very lucky man who faced a co-operative enemy. Lt Vollmer who surrendered his men in order to try to save the life of a wounded fellow officer against a background of imminent national defeat. If York had tried his stunt in earlier in the war against an enemy with a keener will to win it is likely that he would not have come out of the action alive or with many prisoners.

Something similar is probably true of WO2 SAtan Hollis, the only Briton to be awarded the VC for his actions on D Day. Single handed he stormed two command and observation bunkers and a trench network on Gold beach captured some 30-40 Germans. These chaps had manned half completed fortifications which, over the previous 90 minutes had been subject to bombing by four engined bombers and then by a cruiser.

There is perhaps too much of an obsession with the men awarded the highest decorations. In order to win an award you had to be noticed and someone senior needed to witness the deed. It helped if the action was successful and if there weren't too many other people doing something similar on the same day. There were limits to the number of any level of award. No matter how good the unit they could not be allowed to all win the CMOH. There is an anecdote about an Australian unit drawing lots for medals as the CO did not want to chose between his equally brave men.
Im really trying to find what was “chauvinist” about the posting of this article?

From the condescending tone of this post I can infer you must be the life of the cocktail party. :roll:

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Re: "Lost Battalion" of US 77th Liberty Division

#13

Post by Sheldrake » 12 Nov 2018, 14:41

AdolfDettmer wrote:
10 Nov 2018, 09:58

Im really trying to find what was “chauvinist” about the posting of this article?

From the condescending tone of this post I can infer you must be the life of the cocktail party. :roll:
The article itself is fine. I found the story about finding and transcribing a diary from a survivor from the "lost Battalion" interesting. However there was no angle relevant to Axis history. There was no mention of the Germans apart from an accusation of breaching the Geneva convention.


My gripe is with...
Plain Old Dave wrote: ↑08 Oct 2018, 12:06
Is it impossible for this Forum to just enjoy a good, inspirational story about people overcoming tremendous odds?
What part of that story added anything to our understanding of the German angle to this engagement? Did the "Lost Battalion" really face tremendous odds? As far as I can make out the the soldiers facing overwhelming odds in the Meuse Argonne in September 1918 were German.

And I enjoy a good party as much as anyone...
FB_OP_party_LBty_BSM_leaving.jpg

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Re: "Lost Battalion" of US 77th Liberty Division

#14

Post by Terry Duncan » 12 Nov 2018, 16:39

To be fair, this board is one of the 'general' topic boards on the site as opposed to the specific 'Axis' or specified nations boards. The board title is;
First World War
Discussions on all aspects of the First World War not covered in the other sections.
As such, posts concerning all nations are acceptable, but it is best to avoid the jingoistic approach common to propaganda during the war or in many post-war films and books.

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